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Thread: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Nikon rumors has a posting that the next DX Nikons will have a 24MP chip (probably the same as in the Sony NEX cameras).

    As the D800 has the same pixel density as the D7000, this would indicate that the next FX Nikon could have a sensor in the range of 52MP.

    Could this be why the D800 is so "cheap" in comparison to the D3/D4 series, as a new D4X with >50MP will be announced in the near future, with a price tag to match?

    The question is what implication this will have for MF.

    If my H3D31 is already being made outdated by the D800, what about a CFV-50...?
    Last edited by Swissblad; 30th March 2012 at 03:48.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    How many pixels can sit on the head of a pin?

    -Marc-

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    It is Sony and not Nikon that is likely to bring out a 96 or 100MP sensor camera.

    Why only 54MP??

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    Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?


    A logical next step, in my opinion.

    The Leica folks have already done it, they named it 'larger than full frame' before it had its final name.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    I like it that on this forum (as opposed to others) we usually manage to keep the MF section free (or almost free) of small format talk.

    So perhaps this thread can be moved to the Nikon section?

    BR

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Feel free to move the thread - no Hasselblad to me.

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    Senior Member MaxKißler's Avatar
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Normally I try to not post on anything related to "rumors" but I can't help myself. I think the D800 was a bad idea and if the actually go this route, I think this will be even worse. The reason I use a 35mm camera is for convenience in most cases. So what's the use of such a camera that I can't even shoot handhelt?

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I like it that on this forum (as opposed to others) we usually manage to keep the MF section free (or almost free) of small format talk.

    So perhaps this thread can be moved to the Nikon section?

    BR

    Yair
    +1

    -Marc
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    I like it that on this forum (as opposed to others) we usually manage to keep the MF section free (or almost free) of small format talk.

    So perhaps this thread can be moved to the Nikon section?

    BR

    Yair
    Please! Next thing you know, we'll have a D800 vs 5DIII fight.

    --Matt
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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    This is actually a good thread right here because it relates directly to MFD as a reference and comparison point. Those ardent opponents who can't embrace this technology or admit its obvious push into MFD territory seem to be the ones who have already invested in it or represent the MFD companies themselves; how political.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Please! Next thing you know, we'll have a D800 vs 5DIII fight.

    --Matt
    This really is that.

    See (the PS at the bottom what the admin says): sonyalpharumors | Blog | Sony sells the 24 Megapixel sensor to Nikon (new D3200 coming)


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    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    This is actually a good thread right here because it relates directly to MFD as a reference and comparison point. Those ardent opponents who can't embrace this technology or admit its obvious push into MFD territory seem to be the ones who have already invested in it or represent the MFD companies themselves; how political.
    Bulsh*t....It can relate to MFD, be a reference or whatever but still be placed in the Nikon section. There is no shame in that and there should not be any politics involved...

    IMO

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Shouldn't this be the the Nikon section. I really don't understand when 35mm became medium-format.

    But to answer your question, putting TriX in a 4x5 camera does not make it medium-format either. Just as putting Tech Pan in a 35mm camera didn't make it into a 4x5 camera.

    Pixels do not define a format. Oddly enough, the format defines the format.
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    This is actually a good thread right here because it relates directly to MFD as a reference and comparison point. Those ardent opponents who can't embrace this technology or admit its obvious push into MFD territory seem to be the ones who have already invested in it or represent the MFD companies themselves; how political.
    Rubbish. Pixel resolution does not define a format. Or are you saying the Sony 18MP compact cameras are now equivalent to a 35mm Leica M9?

    Speaking of political, your grudge against MFD has plainly been voiced several times at GetDPI. I think you are the one bring politics into the debate.
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    I can see the points and it probably should be in another section. On the other hand, MF is so low and any real innovations or news it is kinda fun to read the nikon stuff. However, it's true I could read it in the Nikon section... where I would never read it

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    "...putting TriX in a 4x5 camera does not make it medium-format either. Just as putting Tech Pan in a 35mm camera didn't make it into a 4x5 camera.

    love this!
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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    If you define political, in terms of ideas or strategies, then I stand by my comment.
    I shoot MFD professionally, and the only grudge I have, is that most of the cameras suck, and they cost a lot of $! This is a forum where ideas and viewpoints can be exchanged, so that's my viewpoint. In most other industries that have these price points, the company would be, and should be, held to a higher standard. Now comes Nikon with its comparable pixel count and MFD, says we can't play. Some may disagree with DXO, but the fact that a 35mm FF DSLR (Nikon D800), has ranked highest in sensor performance ever; evening beating the IQ180, is something to consider, right here in the MFD section.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    If you define political, in terms of ideas or strategies, then I stand by my comment.
    I shoot MFD professionally, and the only grudge I have, is that most of the cameras suck, and they cost a lot of $! This is a forum where ideas and viewpoints can be exchanged, so that's my viewpoint. In most other industries that have these price points, the company would be, and should be, held to a higher standard. Now comes Nikon with its comparable pixel count and MFD, says we can't play. Some may disagree with DXO, but the fact that a 35mm FF DSLR (Nikon D800), has ranked highest in sensor performance ever; evening beating the IQ180, is something to consider, right here in the MFD section.
    We are well aware of your viewpoint, you express it quite often, but it is simply a grudge which seem to be simply you feel offended that these companies are not charging what you want them to charge for their products and they don't make what you want them to make. Guess what, you can refuse to pay and use something else. You have made it clear that this axe your are grinding is personal.

    And you really don't have a clue about the camera industry. Alpas and Arca Swiss cameras are simply a block of machined metal and yet they are some of the most expensive cameras today. They have no autofocus or sweep panorama. They don't even have a sensor. I suppose you think they are over-priced junk because they are more expensive than a Nikon/Canon DSLR.

    This section of the forum is quite clearly for medium-format digital, not DxO mark scores. The Nikon is not a medium-format camera. Is something really hard about that? There is even a Nikon forum on GetDPI where even now folks are talking about and posting results on the D800. Many of the MFD regulars are over there as well finding out about that 35mm camera.

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?


    Let's take it easy, it's only speculation about a sensor.

    50+ Mp has no place in 35mm format, in my opinion.
    What it takes is a new 33 x 44 mm sensor (like the Pentax 645D) in an S2 form factor body, a new mount and a new lens lineup.
    I wouldn't be surprised if Canon or Nikon or Sony entered Medium Format as the logical next flagship step in a couple of years.

    Cramming more millions of pixels into a 35mm sensor would be silly in my humble opinion, there are already too many of them for my taste, they simply get too small.
    So I think the logical answer to the question is that it will more likely be a new Medium Format camera, or something in between 35mm and genuine MF.

    I would even think there's room for such a sensor in a D4-like body, after all it's rather big.
    I hope to see it happen someday.

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Steen,

    I agree completely, fingers crossed!

    Shashin, I went through 4 MFD cameras in 1 year because of quality control issues, and even tried the S2 for a possible purchase. I'm a professional photographer/cinematographer, who does know a little something about the camera industry. I love the Alpa's and Arca Swiss cameras, and plan on getting one soon

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Let's take it easy, it's only speculation about a sensor.

    50+ Mp has no place in 35mm format, in my opinion.
    What it takes is a new 33 x 44 mm sensor (like the Pentax 645D) in an S2 form factor body, a new mount and a new lens lineup.
    I wouldn't be surprised if Canon or Nikon or Sony entered Medium Format as the logical next flagship step in a couple of years.

    Cramming more millions of pixels into a 35mm sensor would be silly in my humble opinion, there are already too many of them for my taste, they simply get too small.
    So I think the logical answer to the question is that it will more likely be a new Medium Format camera, or something in between 35mm and genuine MF.

    I would even think there's room for such a sensor in a D4-like body, after all it's rather big.
    I hope to see it happen someday.

    I disagree with that Steen.

    I overlook the D800 for the 41MP Nokia pureview. It is way cheaper, tiny, light weight and comes with a lens and other goodies.
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Sensor performance is only part of the equation, not the entire equation in itself.

    I see the point in comparing 35mm vs MFD. In the same way that a D3x today would probably outperform a Phase H10 back, or improve the overall potential to catch a better shot, it does make sense. But to claim that 35mm has reached or surpassed MFD at this point in time is like looking at a 16MP camera phone and suggesting that it would outperform the Nikon D700 is a lithe far-fetched.

    The D800 does perform admirably, as does the D4, I'm sure, and the same can be said for the upcoming 1Dx and the latest 5D MkIII, and it does provide photographers with a system for faster shooting (through improved AF, cleaner files past ISO1600, TTL, smaller bodies, improved weather resistance, etc) of faster moving targets (e.g. sports, photojournalism, etc) where MFD isn't ideal for.

    Right now, I see a 36MP/54MP system as a viable replacement for a D3x or my D700, not my H4D, something that would allow me to get maximum IQ out of a smaller system, for days/events where the H4D is not required.
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    You might want to compare gazelles to zebras too.
    This is moving to the Nikon forum.
    -bob
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    I remember the days, when Leica said that 18MP would be enough for 35-DSLR (some 12-15 years ago).

    I remember the time when HB claimed that 31MP are more than enough for MFD (some 5 years ago).

    I remember the days when I (we) had discussions that there are these certain limits in number of MPs for a certain sensor size.

    I remember the days when Canon (and others) claimed that Nikon would never bring a FF DSLR.

    See my point? Could continue like that .....

    Matter of fact is that today we have a FF DSLR with 36+ MP which sensor wise easily outperforms a Leica S2 or a HB 39 or what else MF camera you name. Be careful, I said sensor wise, not system wise, as lenses are still not up to these limits.

    What would you think and imagine to happen in the next 5-10 years given the past 10-15 years evolution? For me pretty much everything is possible!

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    You might want to compare gazelles to zebras too.
    This is moving to the Nikon forum.
    -bob
    BTW I do disagree with that move! We are comparing MFD and DSLR territories, nothing else.

    Is it to protect MFD guys from getting a heart attack? (I am a MFD guy myself and need no protection!)

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I remember the days, when Leica said that 18MP would be enough for 35-DSLR (some 12-15 years ago).

    I remember the time when HB claimed that 31MP are more than enough for MFD (some 5 years ago).

    I remember the days when I (we) had discussions that there are these certain limits in number of MPs for a certain sensor size.

    I remember the days when Canon (and others) claimed that Nikon would never bring a FF DSLR.

    See my point? Could continue like that .....

    Matter of fact is that today we have a FF DSLR with 36+ MP which sensor wise easily outperforms a Leica S2 or a HB 39 or what else MF camera you name. Be careful, I said sensor wise, not system wise, as lenses are still not up to these limits.

    What would you think and imagine to happen in the next 5-10 years given the past 10-15 years evolution? For me pretty much everything is possible!
    Of course! And that's based on the assumption that developments in MFD don't continue.

    However, keeping in mind that demands from clients haven't increased that much, I would have to agree that a D800 or a D4 would meet most client demands from most clients these days.
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ghoonk View Post
    Of course! And that's based on the assumption that developments in MFD don't continue.

    However, keeping in mind that demands from clients haven't increased that much, I would have to agree that a D800 or a D4 would meet most client demands from most clients these days.
    I am actually pretty sure that development in MFD will continue. Basically, if it does not continue it will start to disappear. There is a clear need it continues hence.

    WRT client requests for higher resolution - would say that with 40MP most clients should actually be satisfied - I know that I will hear a storm of countering voices right now - but to be honest we were already able to get stunning prints of 2 x 1.2 m from 10MP, so now we are in the 30-40MP range with DSLRs which would allow 8 x 4.8 m if I am right? Who can print that large? Who does print that large?

    But you know, evolution will never stop because there are folks like me saying that they do not need more than 40MP.

    So there is real hope (or should I say fear) for seeing MFD with 100 - 160 MP in the next years.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    IMHO, digital cameras are fast approaching the same place where CPU performance numbers are today. There will reach a point where there's enough resolution (not unlike how the Ghz wars went several years ago) to print to a certain practical size. We're already at a point where dynamic range is *almost* comparable, and Nikon and Canon being as hungry as they are, with markets as large as they are, are pushing each other to be better and better, perhaps faster than Phase and Hasselblad are pushing each other to greater levels.

    There will come a point, and soon enough, where DSLRs can deliver enough resolution, capture enough dynamic range and colors for the majority of clients we deal with today.

    Let's really ask ourselves - who is the client ultimately, and what do they want? I'm not the client, and neither is the agency. Most magazines today, barring the really top-end guys, are satisfied with what the last (by which I refer to the D3s/D3x/D700, as a Nikon shooter. I know too little about Canon's range to suggest what the previous range was - 5Dm2 and?) and current generation (5DM3, 1Dx, D4, D800/e) DSLRs deliver.

    The market is going to get more competitive - clients don't care if I shoot with a 35/FF or an MFD - either they get an image that they can use they way they want, or they don't. That's the reality for many of us.

    To say that the D800 has 'BEATEN' MFD is highly debatable for the reasons we've seen enough of, from a technical point of view. At the end of the day, for working professionals, the camera is just a tool to get a job done for a client. Either it gets the job done, or it doesn't, it's that simple. And if 35/FF systems have come to a point where a client can't tell the difference and MFD shooters lose the advantage and earnings, then that says more about the state of digital 35mm systems than anything else.
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Thank God! The hyperbole was getting a little much.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    I rarely chime in on such discussions...but now having shot with the D800 on two different shoots, I can say that 36mp might be too much. There is a certain reality to dealing with these files, and my clients are not very excited about the infrastructure necessary to deal with file sizes as big as these. I'll hold off judgement on the camera until I've had more time to put it through its paces...but seriously 36mp might be too much for most professional applications.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I remember the days, when Leica said that 18MP would be enough for 35-DSLR (some 12-15 years ago).

    As usual, they were right. It is enough for a CMOS 35mm DSLR ... like the FF Canon 1DX

    I remember the time when HB claimed that 31MP are more than enough for MFD (some 5 years ago).

    To my knowledge, they never said such a thing. What Hasselblad said at the time was that 100 meg (give or take) was the "practical" theoretical limit for single shot 645 format MFD. However, I think your statement is pretty accurate ... for most, 31/40 meg MFD is more than enough.

    I remember the days when I (we) had discussions that there are these certain limits in number of MPs for a certain sensor size.

    That theory of limits is being proved accurate daily with "Emperor's New Cloths" pics that aren't as pleasing to the eye as MFD, 2 camera's ago were.

    I remember the days when Canon (and others) claimed that Nikon would never bring a FF DSLR.

    Don't recall anyone from a company ever saying such a thing, especially Canon. Nikon owners may have publicly whined about it in hope ... and it was Sony that saved their a$$

    See my point? Could continue like that .....

    Actually so could I. Depends on how much Kool-Aid you've consumed

    Matter of fact is that today we have a FF DSLR with 36+ MP which sensor wise easily outperforms a Leica S2 or a HB 39 or what else MF camera you name. Be careful, I said sensor wise, not system wise, as lenses are still not up to these limits.

    Based on that, then what good is the sensor? Hit the ball, drag the lenses. At least Leica had the good sense to make lenses better than the sensor ... so you don't have to buy all the lens over later

    What would you think and imagine to happen in the next 5-10 years given the past 10-15 years evolution? For me pretty much everything is possible!

    Speculation? In 5 years, Sony could leapfrog the whole market ... then in the following years, competitively knock out Nikon by NOT making sensors for them any more, then go after Canon ... the only one big enough to do battle with Sony for world domination

    Bye, Bye Nikon.

    Hyperbole meets hyperbole.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    BTW I do disagree with that move! We are comparing MFD and DSLR territories, nothing else.

    Is it to protect MFD guys from getting a heart attack? (I am a MFD guy myself and need no protection!)

    Peter
    No, The OP was a speculation on Nikon's possible release of a 52MP D4X
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    ...

    And you really don't have a clue about the camera industry. Alpas and Arca Swiss cameras are simply a block of machined metal and yet they are some of the most expensive cameras today. They have no autofocus or sweep panorama. They don't even have a sensor. I suppose you think they are over-priced junk because they are more expensive than a Nikon/Canon DSLR.

    ...
    Shasin, while I hold no beef and have no grudge towards any camera in particular, I have to say that while Alpas & Arcas are wonderful machines (worth their price, that's a different discussion involving numbers such as production runs and such), I am sure that if we'd take a poll I might not turn out to be the only one thinking that the Phase DF is a very overpriced camera with quite a few junk-y characteristics
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    I'm not out to trash an industry, but I do thinks its fair to have an open discussion about the technology versus price ratios. Being told that I don't have a clue about cameras is lacking knowledge and rather discourteous. My comments while direct, are respectful, with a touch of sarcasm. Most importantly, they're my opinion, no grudge, just real world experience with medium format digital cameras.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I remember the days, when Leica said that 18MP would be enough for 35-DSLR (some 12-15 years ago).

    I remember the time when HB claimed that 31MP are more than enough for MFD (some 5 years ago).

    I remember the days when I (we) had discussions that there are these certain limits in number of MPs for a certain sensor size.

    I remember the days when Canon (and others) claimed that Nikon would never bring a FF DSLR.

    See my point? Could continue like that .....

    so right!

    The best one IMO is from Thomas J. Watson, CEO if IBM, and his 1943 statement, "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers"

    ähm, I have six...

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    ...Alpas and Arca Swiss cameras are simply a block of machined metal and yet they are some of the most expensive cameras today. They have no autofocus or sweep panorama. They don't even have a sensor.
    You need a system to take a picture, and I think all the MF(D) innovations in the last decade or two have been in the lenses and sensors... (unfortunately some of these gizmos cannot be used e.g. on Hasselblads, without the interface on the camera or reflex finders, making use on view cameras less than ideal)

    ¿Alpha and Arca cameras are just (system) adaptors that allow you to connect focusable lenses to digital backs?

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by kinok1 View Post
    ...There is a certain reality to dealing with these files, and my clients are not very excited about the infrastructure necessary to deal with file sizes as big as these. ...but seriously 36mp might be too much for most professional applications.
    Pixel count is not everything - res also counts... and you can post-process a large file (produced with Bayer interpolation and through a frosted glass window) crop it, down sample it and then give the DSLR-file client an adequate, small file.

    ...or you can look for clients that appreciate MFD quality and have the kit to handle large files.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by kinok1 View Post
    I rarely chime in on such discussions...but now having shot with the D800 on two different shoots, I can say that 36mp might be too much. There is a certain reality to dealing with these files, and my clients are not very excited about the infrastructure necessary to deal with file sizes as big as these. I'll hold off judgement on the camera until I've had more time to put it through its paces...but seriously 36mp might be too much for most professional applications.
    "Professional applications" is a catch-all ... it greatly depends on the applications. I definitely think it is too much for wedding, event, and some candid portrait work ... and many Nikon wedding shooters are exploring ways to limit file size by shooting 12 bit and some other alternatives. Definitely over-kill for most editorial work, street photography and most documentary applications.

    Whether the files can hold up under the torture inflicted by multiple client use, or how they fare for easier heavy retouching remains to be seen.

    -Marc

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I'm not out to trash an industry, but I do thinks its fair to have an open discussion about the technology versus price ratios. Being told that I don't have a clue about cameras is lacking knowledge and rather discourteous. My comments while direct, are respectful, with a touch of sarcasm. Most importantly, they're my opinion, no grudge, just real world experience with medium format digital cameras.
    However, your real world experiences are not everyones. You can find issues regarding every product made, voiced by those that experienced those issues. What you do not hear much are the vast majority with little to no issues with MFD ... like me.

    Price to performance ratio disparity is nothing new. Every little incremental improvement in IQ is disproportionately costly ... be it lenses (Leica S Optics verses anything else: -), or lighting: (PCB verses Profoto or Broncolor), etc. etc. ... more so as the speciality factor increases, and production numbers go down.

    These debates are epidemic on the internet ... mostly sarcasm tainted that position the user of the more expensive tools as something of a fool because that user does not accept "almost as good".

    If someone gauges something to be better subjectively or not, it doesn't matter ... they want better, and pay for it. If one doesn't not see the difference, or doesn't value it even if they do, then they don't pay for it.

    BTW, I'm personally not immune to making some judgement like this myself ... I dumped a Nikon system with a D3/D3X for a Sony A900 using the same sensor ... because the format was the same and offered little to no difference for the way and why I use 35mm DSLRs.

    For the way and why I use MFD, no 35mm DSLR is a substitute without compromises I am unwilling to make.

    -Marc

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    ....
    Matter of fact is that today we have a FF DSLR with 36+ MP which sensor wise easily outperforms a Leica S2 or a HB 39 or what else MF camera you name. Be careful, I said sensor wise, not system wise, as lenses are still not up to these limits.
    ...
    Peter, do you really believe this is the case? I dont.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I'm not out to trash an industry,...
    The industry has been in decline since the invention of quick-load sheet film (nearly 100 years ago) ...and (as always) the way to get a premium for professional work is to be able to do things that amateurs cannot do with amateur equipment.

    The instant feed-back of digital means that anyone can be assured that their settings were near enough before they put the camera down.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Dick-
    Agreed, the learning curve is greatly reduced with digital, so as you say "anyone" really, can be a photographer, and that's where you separate the artists from the shooters; it's mostly apparent in their portfolios.

    Marc- My experience with MFD, wasn't about whether the camera could keep up with the the bells and whistles or high ISO, of a 35mm DSLR. It was that fact that the mechanics of the cameras or DB itself would not function. Shutters mostly, but enough to render the MFD a boat anchor. I purchased MFD because I wanted the best and figured that these cameras must be worth it...they are not. You once complained about your first S2, but you were able to find one that did function correctly. Every MFD camera I owned, except the H3DII, had shutter malfunctions or DB glitches. In fairness, the DF, I briefly owned did not malfunction, but I hated the design. Also, the S2 did not have enough lenses at the time to justify the expense, and was too close to 35mmDSLR, for the price...imo. I never said my experience was indicative of everyones, but it's my experience. I just want a useable camera that works. Price to performance disparity is not new, but the Nikon D800 has changed that! Gauging something to be better than another starts with a camera that functions, to at least have a reference.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 31st March 2012 at 10:30.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    We are well aware of your viewpoint, you express it quite often, but it is simply a grudge which seem to be simply you feel offended that these companies are not charging what you want them to charge for their products and they don't make what you want them to make. Guess what, you can refuse to pay and use something else. You have made it clear that this axe your are grinding is personal.

    And you really don't have a clue about the camera industry. Alpas and Arca Swiss cameras are simply a block of machined metal and yet they are some of the most expensive cameras today. They have no autofocus or sweep panorama. They don't even have a sensor. I suppose you think they are over-priced junk because they are more expensive than a Nikon/Canon DSLR.

    This section of the forum is quite clearly for medium-format digital, not DxO mark scores. The Nikon is not a medium-format camera. Is something really hard about that? There is even a Nikon forum on GetDPI where even now folks are talking about and posting results on the D800. Many of the MFD regulars are over there as well finding out about that 35mm camera.
    You've kinda made my point. Although, your analogy is confusing.
    Everyone knows that Alpa and Arca Swiss are outstanding cameras, and yes, you need to add components to exploit the full potential. Yes, there expensive, but you most certainly get what you paid for! That I don't mind. I'm not sure of any photographers who would not be offended by paying these prices for MFD and expecting the gear to actually function, if it doesn't.

    What I want from MFD, is for them to make a good camera that's worth what they charge. It's really pretty simple. Then I'll be a loyal customer.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 31st March 2012 at 10:27.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    You might want to compare gazelles to zebras too.
    This is moving to the Nikon forum.
    -bob
    Good choice! It is flourishing here!

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    The closest parallel I see to the small format / medium format relationship is the relationship between personal computers and high end workstations. This is a fundamentally imperfect comparison (I'll get to that) but I think it's a useful one.

    Twenty or thirty years ago, there were distinct classes of computers, with the workstations costing roughly ten times as much as the PCs, and being specialized, complex, lumbering tools for professionals who needed power that wasn't available elsewhere. Over the next couple of decades, the march of technology narrowed the performance gap more and more, while economies of scale kept the price gap very large.

    This meant that the line between "I must have a workstation to do this" and "I can do this on a PC" kept shifting, year after year.

    I see this same phenomenon happening in photography. It pre-dates digital, in fact, but I'm sticking to digital because it's the sphere where the types of technology and the pace of change are most comparable. There are important differences between computers and cameras: the price of large sensors does not fall the way the price of small sensors with more densely-packed circuits does. This is a physical-world limitation concerning manufacture of big pieces of silicon. Likewise the price/quality of optics doesn't fall like the price/quality of electronics.

    So there are very real limitations that are keeping small formats from sweeping in and obsoleting bigger ones. They will, however, continue to narrow the gap. And every year there will be more photographers who for the first time will say "I can do this with that cheap little camera instead of that big expensive one."

    This is a GOOD thing. I just hope that its effect on the MF digital industry is positive (by increasing competition and innovation) and not a destructive way (by pushing them farther to the margins, and making their economy of scale situation even worse).

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Dick-
    Agreed, the learning curve is greatly reduced with digital, so as you say "anyone" really, can be a photographer, and that's where you separate the artists from the shooters; it's mostly apparent in their portfolios.

    Marc- My experience with MFD, wasn't about whether the camera could keep up with the the bells and whistles or high ISO, of a 35mm DSLR. It was that fact that the mechanics of the cameras or DB itself would not function. Shutters mostly, but enough to render the MFD a boat anchor. I purchased MFD because I wanted the best and figured that these cameras must be worth it...they are not. You once complained about your first S2, but you were able to find one that did function correctly. Every MFD camera I owned, except the H3DII, had shutter malfunctions or DB glitches. In fairness, the DF, I briefly owned did not malfunction, but I hated the design. Also, the S2 did not have enough lenses at the time to justify the expense, and was too close to 35mmDSLR, for the price...imo. I never said my experience was indicative of everyones, but it's my experience. I just want a useable camera that works. Price to performance disparity is not new, but the Nikon D800 has changed that! Gauging something to better than another starts with a camera that functions, to at least have a reference.
    I'm truly sorry your experience soured you on a great image making format. In contrast, I've had eight HD cameras, and only the very first one (H2D/22) had issues because they tried to implement direct capture of DNG before its time. Hasselblad replaced the camera with a brand new non-DNG one over-night.

    By sticking with the H, I can now play it like an instrument, and do not find it lacking in any way for what and how I shoot ... which covers a pretty diverse array of applications.

    Oh, and I've had to have one HC lens repaired for AF .... the very first HC lens I bought years ago, and most heavily used ...

    The S2 did have issues at first ... but to Leica's credit they provided A1 pro service and overnighted a loaner until mine was repaired. No issues since.

    The S2 is indeed close to a 35mm DSLR ... and had it been a 35mm R10 I still would have bought it ... because of the Leica lenses.

    All the best,

    -Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 31st March 2012 at 15:03.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    Peter, do you really believe this is the case? I dont.
    Sensor wise I believe! Not WRT all components - like lenses etc.

    But system wise (choice of lenses etc) it will be also true.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Marc- your experiences with MFD, are the norm for the most part. My H2 is awesome, I should add, but mostly used with film. Indeed, played like an instrument, it becomes an extension of your creativity. I'm glad that Nikon and Sony have kinda changed the game a little because if you read this and other threads, on other forums, many are jumping the MFD ship. I'm a perfectionist who strives for the best in my photography, I'm still learning technique and theory, but the last thing that I need or want to consider, is whether the camera is up to the task.

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    Re: Will Nikon launch a 52MP D4X?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Dick-
    Agreed, the learning curve is greatly reduced with digital, so as you say "anyone" really, can be a photographer, and that's where you separate the artists from the shooters; it's mostly apparent in their portfolios.

    Marc- My experience with MFD, wasn't about whether the camera could keep up with the the bells and whistles or high ISO, of a 35mm DSLR. It was that fact that the mechanics of the cameras or DB itself would not function. Shutters mostly, but enough to render the MFD a boat anchor. I purchased MFD because I wanted the best and figured that these cameras must be worth it...they are not. You once complained about your first S2, but you were able to find one that did function correctly. Every MFD camera I owned, except the H3DII, had shutter malfunctions or DB glitches. In fairness, the DF, I briefly owned did not malfunction, but I hated the design. Also, the S2 did not have enough lenses at the time to justify the expense, and was too close to 35mmDSLR, for the price...imo. I never said my experience was indicative of everyones, but it's my experience. I just want a useable camera that works. Price to performance disparity is not new, but the Nikon D800 has changed that! Gauging something to be better than another starts with a camera that functions, to at least have a reference.
    When I testran the S2 I hoped to find something to not work or not like, for example I had some doubts the AF would be up to the task.
    But in the end I couldnt find anything negative in this regard (of course AF-spped is slower than a dslr).
    But I guess it is really something which has to try and to find out how good a camera works for someone.
    And while DSLRs might-overall-be more "sophisticated" they are not perfect either. I have found AF inconsistencies with many, like the K5 and also the 7d when using fast lenses for example-so much that I sold those cameras even though I liked the rest of the package. (Nikon AF has allways worked fine for me by the way)

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