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Thread: D800E and Moire

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    D800E and Moire

    I expect to take delivery of a D800E this week. I didn't think moire would be a significant problem for me, since I don't shoot fashion, fabrics etc. Then I saw the images on Diglloyd's comparison of the D800 with the Leica S2 and noticed moire in the kind of subjects which I might be interested in shooting. So now I'm wondering.....will this be a bigger "issue" than I had expected?

    Here is an image which is very typical of what I frequently shoot (I know...why?). Looking at the truck grills and the exhaust heat shield, I wonder if the D800E will have problems with moire on this type of subject and if so, how I could remove the moire in post processing (I use CS, not Lightroom etc). Any thoughts?

    Gary

    D2X and 16-85G lens

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E and Moire

    Ben, I would bet you will see moire on a frame like that BUT.

    1) I see terrible moire on that frame already. That's because I'm looking on a screen. If I pinch to zoom it on my ipad I can even make the moire dance and shimmer! If a lot of your stuff is being seen on screen, then no amount of AA filtering will stop moire being an issue. It's only for print that moire is optional, and many people rarely show a print these days. Of course, the type of moire I am talking about is ON TOP OF the moire caused by the interaction between the pixel grid of the sensor and the patterns in the subject but it will generally obliterate that type, because it is so strong.

    2) It is treatable in post. Not always fully but usually satisfactorily. But it is keeping an eye out for it that is boring.

    3) you can always stop down and use diffraction as an AA filter for subjects where you anticipate it. I have been known to 'moire bracket' with my M9.

    But yes, you'll get it and it will annoy you...

    Ps I really like that shot myself. It is really nicely exposed.

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    Re: D800E and Moire

    My understanding, and I may be incorrect, is that the 800E ships with Nikon's NX2 software which has a moire removal tool that is getting very good reviews.

    C1 Pro also has an excellent moire brush. I've tried the latter on some E moire samples I downloaded (the E being on my order list) and works very well. I was hoping that Hassy's (gratis) Phocus software moire tool would also work on NEF files, but it looks limited to Hassy raws.?

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800E and Moire

    C1pro can't see nef files from the D 800 yet. How did you do that
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D800E and Moire

    My .02 FWIW...

    Moire is a total PITA to deal with when it rears it's ugly head -- and it has a propensity to do it at the most inopportune times. However -- and especially with small pixel-pitches -- there are few natural subjects that have enough regular high-frequency repeating detail to have issues. Unfortunately, there are a multitude of man-made materials that do have large expanses of high-frequency repeating detail where it will show.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D800E and Moire

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    C1pro can't see nef files from the D 800 yet. How did you do that
    Work the output tiff or jpeg -- now go get your morning espresso
    Jack
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    Re: D800E and Moire

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    C1pro can't see nef files from the D 800 yet. How did you do that
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Work the output tiff or jpeg -- now go get your morning espresso
    Can't you just convert to DNG in Adobe DNG converter and open them in C1? then you have the benefit of the RAW file as well and can make your own profiles. (I think it's quite a good idea anyway).

    As for Moire - nearly 6 years with AA filterless Leicas has taught me two things.

    1. it really doesn't cause an issue very often
    2. If you want to get rid of it, Aperture really does a much better job than anything else. (I guess it's a quid pro quo to the fact that it does the worst job with noise!).

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: D800E and Moire

    As Jack said - worked Tiffs and Jpegs to see what C1 vs ___ would do with moire. Not concerned with it for what I shoot, but always good to know what will mitgate it just in case it rears it's head in the odd shot.

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    Senior Member routlaw's Avatar
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    Re: D800E and Moire

    Gary I am posting a couple of jpegs from my D4 that does relate to your concerns albeit a different camera. Normally I don't really care for NCNX2 but at least in this case of severe moire on the side of a building it has made an impressive difference and salvaged an otherwise almost unusable picture in color. No matter what I did in LR or CS5 I could not eliminate these color artifacts you see on the grain bin building side. The point is with a D800e which is less inclined in the first place to have this issue and the use of NX2 for raw conversion you should be able to all but eliminate any moire problems… I think.

    Please look beyond the extreme differences between the two files as I was experimenting with different PP techniques from the two raw file conversions.

    First the ACR rendition, then the NX 2.

    Hope this helps.

    Rob
    Last edited by routlaw; 23rd May 2015 at 10:12.

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Re: D800E and Moire

    Quote Originally Posted by routlaw View Post
    Gary I am posting a couple of jpegs from my D4 that does relate to your concerns albeit a different camera. Normally I don't really care for NCNX2 but at least in this case of severe moire on the side of a building it has made an impressive difference and salvaged an otherwise almost unusable picture in color. No matter what I did in LR or CS5 I could not eliminate these color artifacts you see on the grain bin building side. The point is with a D800e which is less inclined in the first place to have this issue and the use of NX2 for raw conversion you should be able to all but eliminate any moire problems… I think.

    Please look beyond the extreme differences between the two files as I was experimenting with different PP techniques from the two raw file conversions.

    First the ACR rendition, then the NX 2.

    Hope this helps.

    Rob
    Thanks Rob. I was hoping to avoid using NX2, but it looks like I might have to in certain circumstances. I was under the impression that the D800E would be MORE prone to moire than cameras like the D4 or D800, which have the anti-aliasing filters, so in a shot of buildings like your example, I would expect to see more pronounced moire with the D800E than you did with the D4. Am I mistaken?

    Gary

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    Senior Member routlaw's Avatar
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    Re: D800E and Moire

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Thanks Rob. I was hoping to avoid using NX2, but it looks like I might have to in certain circumstances. I was under the impression that the D800E would be MORE prone to moire than cameras like the D4 or D800, which have the anti-aliasing filters, so in a shot of buildings like your example, I would expect to see more pronounced moire with the D800E than you did with the D4. Am I mistaken?

    Gary
    A couple more thoughts, this was the first time I have ran into this sort of issue with the D4. Have shot tons of fabrics in the studio and thus far its been moire free while my D3 is quite problematic in this regard. So this image sort of surprised me. That out of the way in general the smaller the pixel the less likely it is to present moire so perhaps the 800e in this case would not have exhibited this trait in the first place… maybe.

    However at least with one of the images available for download on Nikons website I did notice some moire on a 800e image, not much but it was there. Its the image of the Japanese woman in komona (sp?).

    At this point the jury is still out on how prone to moire the camera will be, but theoretically is can be addressed in NX2. It is worth noting when I converted this raw file shown above in NX2 I did NOT have the button checked on for moire reduction. In other words our are seeing the basic raw conversion which left me scratching my head, how?

    Unfortunately ACR/LR does not have a moire reduction control.

    Rob

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800E and Moire

    Last thing I'm worried about is Moire
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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