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Thread: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    OK, so I have taken maybe thirty shots of the facade of this building in the past two days with a variety of lenses, distances etc and this is the first shot with the D800E that has shown any moire despite my attempts at provoking it - but boy is it strong! You can just about spot it in review mode on the back of the camera so if you know it's a risk you can look for it and maybe take corrective action at the shooting stage..

    Full scene (with 50 Cron R at about F5.6) then some 100% crops...



    Crop from LR default. Ouch!




    Crop from C1 defaults but with both moire reduction sliders full to the right:

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Crop from Capture NX defaults (no extra sharpening) with no moire removal:


    NX with no sharpening, Medium moire removal:


    NX with full sharpening and medium moire removal:

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Hey consider yourself lucky you hit focus and you have a sharp lens. LOL

    I just bought a 90mm tech lens because it had moire in it. Seriously it told me it was one sharp lens. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Tim,

    The NX with sharpening / med. moire removal, does an acceptable post edit, considering the crop at this focal length. I'm curious how it does with a sheer fabric or silk, or even bird feathers at a more normal or portrait size lens.

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    Senior Member danielmoore's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Tim, to clarify, when you say 'You can just about spot it in review mode', this refers to fit screen review or fully zoomed in review?

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    Super Duper
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    I like the moire color; like a nice rainbow.

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    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    You also may get the moire from the D800. Have seen enough moire from cameras with AA filter too.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    The nikon software seems to be doing a much better job on the removal.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    It is impressive. If you can see moire under what appears to be heavy overcast skies, I can only imagine how much more it would be under contrasty lighting.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmoore View Post
    Tim, to clarify, when you say 'You can just about spot it in review mode', this refers to fit screen review or fully zoomed in review?
    one step back from fully zoomed on the LCD: full zoom is Pixel City!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Hey consider yourself lucky you hit focus and you have a sharp lens. LOL

    I just bought a 90mm tech lens because it had moire in it. Seriously it told me it was one sharp lens. LOL
    I know! To be honest I don't think I can be bothered to worry about this: I was trying to make it happen and this sort of subject is prime territory - it took an exact combination of distance and a very sharp lens to do it and worst case, I'd develop one in NX2 and one in C1 and blend their layers in PS. It aint gonna happen often!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It is impressive. If you can see moire under what appears to be heavy overcast skies, I can only imagine how much more it would be under contrasty lighting.
    Ah but you only see a rainbow when it's raining and sunny at the same time!

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Tim,

    The NX with sharpening / med. moire removal, does an acceptable post edit, considering the crop at this focal length. I'm curious how it does with a sheer fabric or silk, or even bird feathers at a more normal or portrait size lens.

    I've tried quite hard on all of the above subjects and failed to make it happen: I think it requires a very specific interference of pixel and subject frequency and I think that's gonna be quite.... infrequent!

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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Tim, how do you achieve critical focus with manual lenses?
    Focus confirmation, live view, or is it possible to directly use the viewfinder.
    Your images all seem perfectly focused.

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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    "and I think that's gonna be quite.... infrequent!"

    .....unless you do aerials:there is always a damned roof with the right pattern at the right
    distance.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio lovisolo View Post
    Tim, how do you achieve critical focus with manual lenses?
    Focus confirmation, live view, or is it possible to directly use the viewfinder.
    Your images all seem perfectly focused.

    Hi Sergio,

    I just got to know the lens by trial and error, I don't have a tripod with me so these are all using my eye and the focus confirmation dot, plus a sense of the distribution of depth of field at various apertures... so far it's a good hit rate, probably better than AF...

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio lovisolo View Post
    "and I think that's gonna be quite.... infrequent!"

    .....unless you do aerials:there is always a damned roof with the right pattern at the right
    distance.
    That's Italian roofs for you... too picturesque!

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I think it requires a very specific interference of pixel and subject frequency and I think that's gonna be quite.... infrequent!
    It does and it will be infrequent, but I can guarantee it will rear it's ugly head at the most inopportune times --it is Sir Ansel Murphy at work.
    Jack
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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    I have done a test yesterday on the PCP Show in Frankfurt where I happened to have my booth beneath Nikon´s. I used our Hartblei 4/40 IF TS on the D800E. I will link to full resolution JPG´s on my server, done with Lightroom 4.1 Beta (I have to say this new version really looks good to me , mostly it´s F_A_S_T !) The first shot _DSC5245.jpg is a closeup that shows what happens when you go to fabric with a really sharp lens (the Zeiss datasheet for our lens states 200 LPmm), we have a heavy Moiree here- I did NOT use any moiree correction to make it obvious. Aperture was f11.
    The second image _DSC5250.jpg was shot a bit more backwards to show the scene, there you can also see the original colors of the fabric without moiree.

    The settings for the JPG´s are: Quality 100 %/300 dpi/ProPhotoRGB.
    I tried to get the "medium Format look" that some people describe with some finetuning, both images use the exact same sharpness and other settings.

    http://www.hcam.de/downloads/_DSC5245.jpg
    http://www.hcam.de/downloads/_DSC5250.jpg

    In case it is of interest I can also put up the full NEF´s to my server.

    Greetings from Lindenberg
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Senior Member danielmoore's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    RAW files would be much appreciated. Thanks for these.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    hi Daniel

    here you go

    http://www.hcam.de/downloads/_DSC5245.NEF
    http://www.hcam.de/downloads/_DSC5250.NEF

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 27th April 2012 at 11:03.
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Workshop & Subscriber Member manouch shirzad's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Hi Stefan,
    The links are the same as Jpeg.
    ________
    Manouch

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Fixed, was the forumsoftware- sorry !
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Fixed, was the forumsoftware- sorry !
    Is there a problem with the forum software?

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Hi Bob

    well , it just covered that there was an automatic hyperlink created that was hidden in the edit window. I had copied the jpg urls and just changed the .jpg to .NEF. In my edit window this looked ok and I thought it will generate the hyperlinks anew from the new link but it kept the old one active.
    I think this was in quick edit- so maybe this would not have happened in advanced....

    regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    I could download the NEFs.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Tim.

    What I see in these images is C1 being unable to remove the moire without leaving behind pattern moire. Nice and sharp but only if you like parque patterns! (I've had this with P25+ and boat wake images). NX2 obviously is doing a great job! Imagine that, the manufacturer's raw converter doing the best job fixing their raws
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    I tried the Moiree tool in the new Lightroom 4.1 RC2 today - WOW !
    Whatever it does - it takes some time , but the result looks marvelous !

    regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Tim.

    What I see in these images is C1 being unable to remove the moire without leaving behind pattern moire. Nice and sharp but only if you like parque patterns! (I've had this with P25+ and boat wake images). NX2 obviously is doing a great job! Imagine that, the manufacturer's raw converter doing the best job fixing their raws

    I know, weird, hey? But I agree with Stefan: the LR tool is looking very promising but NX2 is like a very old hooker: it might have some tricks up it's sleeve but you really don't want to look up the sleeve....

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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    nasty, nasty

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Here's LR 4 with 100% moire removal as a local adjustment on the right hand four shutters and not on the left hand two. Like C1, good at colour removal, less able with pattern, but they are both sharper than NX2, which I think is fudging the pattern with blur, and it shows...


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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Capture NX2 with sharpen & moire removal, love it or hate it, still definitely does a lot better job with leaving the slats in the louvre's intact.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Senior Member danielmoore's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Looks to me like C1 has no problem with the Stefan's fabric. Here's an animated GIF at 100%. I'm liking this very much.


  34. #34
    wesmannmsu
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    The question is: is it a problem for you? I dont have an issue with the rare cases and apparently its easy to fix

    Remove Nikon D800/e Moiré in Lightroom 4 and Photoshop

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by wesmannmsu View Post
    The question is: is it a problem for you? I dont have an issue with the rare cases and apparently its easy to fix

    Remove Nikon D800/e Moiré in Lightroom 4 and Photoshop
    It is easy to fix in the very mild example shown on that link however, as you will see higher up this thread, with a serious example it is much harder (in fact I would say impossible) to fix. Luckily bad cases like the shutters above are rare in my experience.

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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I know, weird, hey? But I agree with Stefan: the LR tool is looking very promising but NX2 is like a very old hooker: it might have some tricks up it's sleeve but you really don't want to look up the sleeve....
    What the Heck is C1 doing with the Moire removal, I thought it would be better than this...certainly not introduce other issues into the image.

  37. #37
    fledgeling
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    Re: D800E: I found the moire - big time!

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I know, weird, hey? But I agree with Stefan: the LR tool is looking very promising but NX2 is like a very old hooker: it might have some tricks up it's sleeve but you really don't want to look up the sleeve....
    Hi, Tim, and thanks very much for making your findings available here.

    When I saw on the shutters the different patterns arising from different conversion software, I assumed that the mosaic pattern had been blurred into horizontal slats by Capture NX rather than that slats had been given an extra dimension in Lightroom and Capture One. Did you get close enough to the house to confirm that this definitely, definitely is not the case?

    Thanks again for your trouble.

    John

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