D800E with 24mm PC-E

[archivue]

i'd like to see a 32 PC-E...

 

[tjv]

Thanks Tim.
Earlier in the day I wrote an epic reply but cyberspace lost it...
Anyway, just wanted to say thanks a million and list some observations.
Going by your samples, it seems the 24mm PC-E is just okay. To be honest, I was quite shocked to see so much CA, even when in neutral position. The silver car on the left of the frame is crazy around the doors! With 5 rise, the upper corners seem to be dropping off rather quickly and this is disturbing considering I'd mostly use it at around 8 or 9. 10mm is certainly getting bad, and 11 is total mush in the corners.
Having said all of this, viewed at 50% as you suggest things look somewhat better. Do you think they'd be very good printed at 22 x 27.5"? Obviously this is worst case in terms of being noticeable – flat / two dimensional subject matter.
TJV

 

[Rethmeier]

What's importent for me is how it look in a magazine.
I did a shoot while I still had a MFDB and a DSLR, honestly I couldn't tell the difference on the printed page.
Even on a DPS.
At the end I choose for the best DSLR sensor. At the time is was the D3x.

 

[tashley]

TJV,

Don't worry about the CA: one quick click in LR 4.1 release candidate gets rid of it.

I will assume that your screen is 100DPI like mine. If that is true, this file

http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/s3/v45/p758981101.jpg

when viewed at 100% on screen will be a pretty good emulation of a 27.5" print.

To get it I:

1) Did (very) quick and dirty corrections to angle, horizontal transform and distortion

2) Allowed LR to crop to constrain the crop to those corrections

3) Used a quick brush with some increase to sharpness and clarity, brightness and sharpness and some increase to NR. I ran this selectively over parts of the top left and right corners, top edge, and upper parts of left and right edges.

4) Exported it at 91% JPEG to 2750 pixels wide such that on a 100DPI monitor it will emulate a 27.5" wide print.

Only you can say if it's good enough for you. For me the answer is, JUST... but then this is the version with 10 rise, and in most of my cases this would have sky as the content that required (and therefore probably would'\t require) extra treatment.

One further note: I don't think my copy is quite 'right' because at close range the right hand side sometimes seems a little soft whereas at distance the sides are reversed. To me that's a lens with both field curvature and a de-centered element. So I am sending it back...

Best

Tim

 

[tjv]

Thanks again, Tim. That's very, very informative. I can understand you thinking it is JUST good enough. I think I'm of the same opinion, especially considering I'm not used to doing extra steps to sharpen corners etc in my current film / digital workflow. I know it's just a habit thing, and I'm on a different planet with my 4x5" routine. Maybe I have too high expectations?

 

[tashley]

I don't think your expectations are too high and I do think that someone will come along with a wide PC lens for FF Nikon that is better suited to the demands of this sensor. I'm going to send my copy of this lens back, because on 20+mp nikon sensors it has frequently reviewed as sharp from edge to edge and when viewed at equivalent resolutions, mine just isn't - so I think it's a 'friday lens'...

 

[tashley]

So, here we are: either my 24 PC-E is a bad copy or this lens is just not suited to the D800/E, even at 50% view.

People say the Schneider isn't any better as far as I can gather... The Canons are good but they don't fit the Nikon cameras. Hartblei's widest is a 40mm.

Any other options (other than shooting much wider and cropping?)

 

[Sinuhe]

Thanks for this post Tim, it's been most helpful.

I was dreaming of this lens for a long time - guess I'll wait for Mk2 to be released.

I'm sure Nikon will respond quite fast as they did with the 70-200mm Mk 2.

 

[Paul2660]

Thanks Tim for the tests, I had hoped to see the 24 TS-E hold up better. The newer Canon is an excellent lens, but as you pointed out, can't be adapted to fit the Nikon mount due to loss of infinity focus. Hopefully Nikon will produce a newer version soon.

Paul

 

[vieri]

So, here we are: either my 24 PC-E is a bad copy or this lens is just not suited to the D800/E, even at 50% view.

People say the Schneider isn't any better as far as I can gather... The Canons are good but they don't fit the Nikon cameras. Hartblei's widest is a 40mm.

Any other options (other than shooting much wider and cropping?)

Tim, I have one that works pretty well on the D3x - all corners are equally sharp and (while minimally less sharp than the center WA) they certainly aren't mushy; one I'll be able to put my hands on a D800 - which will unfortunately be a couple of months, I am afraid, unless some jobs will pop up in Italy before that - I will surely check it out and share my impressions.

I think it might come down to QC, in your case it's pretty evidently mis-aligned; however, both the 45 and 85 PC-E (which I also own) are MUCH better as far as sharpening goes, with the 85 the best of the bunch.

If you are interested, I can see if I can conjure up a sharpness test for you on the D3x, let me know if eventual results on a 24Mp sensor would be of interest

 

[tashley]

Tim, I have one that works pretty well on the D3x - all corners are equally sharp and (while minimally less sharp than the center WA) they certainly aren't mushy; one I'll be able to put my hands on a D800 - which will unfortunately be a couple of months, I am afraid, unless some jobs will pop up in Italy before that - I will surely check it out and share my impressions.

I think it might come down to QC, in your case it's pretty evidently mis-aligned; however, both the 45 and 85 PC-E (which I also own) are MUCH better as far as sharpening goes, with the 85 the best of the bunch.

If you are interested, I can see if I can conjure up a sharpness test for you on the D3x, let me know if eventual results on a 24Mp sensor would be of interest

. Vieri, I would find that extremely interesting and useful. The optimal centre resolution is at f5.6 according to reviews, and mine is visibly a little diffracted at f8 on centre, though still very sharp. So if you had a chance to do a brick wall test at around 30-40 feet away at f 5.6 and at centred, 5 and ten rise that'd be wonderful. And if in your archive you have anything like a cityscape at f5.6 where I can see how sharp buildings are at the edges, I'd owe you a large testing favour!

 

[vieri]

. Vieri, I would find that extremely interesting and useful. The optimal centre resolution is at f5.6 according to reviews, and mine is visibly a little diffracted at f8 on centre, though still very sharp. So if you had a chance to do a brick wall test at around 30-40 feet away at f 5.6 and at centred, 5 and ten rise that'd be wonderful. And if in your archive you have anything like a cityscape at f5.6 where I can see how sharp buildings are at the edges, I'd owe you a large testing favour!

Sure thing Tim, will go out and try to find a suitable brick wall then No cityscapes in my archives, unfortunately, so far I mostly used the lens for non-share-allowed interior work (even if I could share it, I don't have images in the rise, shooting distance & f number range that you indicate). Will see if I can shoot a couple of far-distance cityscapes while I am at it, and get back to you in a couple of days (I hope). AFA the testing favor, I am sure I am not the only one here thinking that we all already have a huge testing-debt with you for all you are doing in letting the D800 known to us, so we are definitely square already, no worries!

 

[Rethmeier]

I forgot to mention!
It's very important with Nikon's PC-E lenses that all the buttons are tight and that the swing is dead on zero.
Also shooting at f9-11 is mandatory as well to get optimum sharpness.

 

[tashley]

trouble is, diffraction on centre is visible from f8 :-(

 

[Jan Brittenson]

Any other options (other than shooting much wider and cropping?)

Mamiya 28/4.5 and a Mirex adapter?

 

[torger]

You really must use f/8, possibly even f/9-f/10 if you want reasonably equal sharpness corner-to-corner. One have to live with diffraction and use sharpen with deconvolution to restore most sharpness. At f/5.6 no wide angle lens for Canon/Nikon I know of is sharp corner-to-corner, I guess the required retrofocus design is just too complex.

Also note that the max 11mm shift corresponds to 15-17mm for digital medium format, that is an amount that even schneiders and rodenstocks is struggling with. Keeping within say 6mm shift is more reasonable.

It can be said though that Canon's TS-E 24mm is a better performer than Nikon's, it still needs f/8-f/10 for good corner-to-corner performance and Canon doesn't have a 36 megapixel sony exmor sensor...

 

[tashley]

You really must use f/8, possibly even f/9-f/10 if you want reasonably equal sharpness corner-to-corner. One have to live with diffraction and use sharpen with deconvolution to restore most sharpness. At f/5.6 no wide angle lens for Canon/Nikon I know of is sharp corner-to-corner, I guess the required retrofocus design is just too complex.

Also note that the max 11mm shift corresponds to 15-17mm for digital medium format, that is an amount that even schneiders and rodenstocks is struggling with. Keeping within say 6mm shift is more reasonable.

It can be said though that Canon's TS-E 24mm is a better performer than Nikon's, it still needs f/8-f/10 for good corner-to-corner performance and Canon doesn't have a 36 megapixel sony exmor sensor...

I can't answer that because my copy is clearly f*kd but several reviews I have read imply that the lens is sharpest across the frame at F5.6 and does not improve on stopping down - including edge and corner performance.

 

[torger]

I can't answer that because my copy is clearly f*kd but several reviews I have read imply that the lens is sharpest across the frame at F5.6 and does not improve on stopping down - including edge and corner performance.

Ok, I guess that's right then, the f/8 recommendation as a corner-to-corner tradeoff is more a general advice that fit most lenses, but I guess the PC-E 24 is a bit special then.

I have from earlier experiences seen that the digital picture's test charts is quite good way to get an idea of how a lens performs, especially if you already own a "reference lens" so you can compare with:

Nikon 24mm f/3.5D ED PC-E Nikkor Lens Image Quality

And there I see that the corners of the PC-E 24 indeed does not really sharpen up much past f/5.6. Problem is that corners are not really that sharp at any aperture it seems :-\. The comparison link above compares it with the TS-E 24mm at f/8 (mouseover to see), you can look at other apertures too.

 

[tashley]

Thanks for posting that - what a great comparison tool!

 

[tjv]

Well, I had a rather cutting reality call this evening. I looked in the fridge and realized I have only one box of 4x5" film left, that B&H is out of stock, and I need at least another 20 boxes to keep me going for the next two months. I also realized I now have over $2000USD worth of processing backed up. There is no way in hell I can afford to keep going on like this let alone catch up on the backlog. Rather than sitting back and weighing up how the D800E and a couple of PC-E lenses (the 24mm particularly) compares to my Linhof setup, I think my hand has been forced. What with film and processing prices climbing, not to mention the cost of quality drum scans, I find myself thinking "just good enough" might have to do. It's a sad day for me, indeed.

I guess I'm scared of change and not exactly thrilled about giving up the large 4x5" imaging area and GG composition. For those of you that have used the 24mm PC-E and a full frame body, what sort of work do you use it for? Can anyone post some links to images that show off its potential rather than highlight its faults? I'm not talking gimmick effects, more architectural, landscape and environmental portrait work.