D800E with 24mm PC-E

[tashley]

It's a sad day for me, indeed.

I'm sorry to hear that... but I do think that the cost/benefit situation is driving you towards an inevitability...

I have sent my 24PCE off to the great returns dept in the sky: the more I looked a the straight files from it, the more it didn't seem right. I hope to have a replacement soon and I do think that a good copy will be satisfactorily useable to your desired sizes unless there is some special juju that makes it perform badly on the D800s. I do think that is possible: if the 24-120 performs better than it 'should' then there's no reason why some lenses shouldn't perform worse...

 

[torger]

I have not used the PC-E 24mm for my own work, but Canon's counterpart the TS-E 24mm II on a 5D mark II. I recently decided to move to second-hand digital medium format though with a Linhof Techno to get a workflow more similar to 4x5".

I did mostly landscape with it and was very pleased with the results, if not shifting more than 6mm and using it at f/8-f/10 with the 21 megapixel sensor. The Canon has is better designed in the way that shift and tilt work independently.

If you need higher resolution than 20-22 megapixels I'm afraid that the 135 wide-angle options may be a bit disappointing though. It is one of the reason I got a MF system, to have better options on wide angles.

The live view is great in adjusting tilt and focusing, working with live view of the quality of the modern Canon and Nikon is in many aspects superior to ground glass I think, especially in dim lighting.

Here is one example image made with the TS-E 24 on the 5D mark II, f/8 with some tilt:
http://torger.dyndns.org/example-tse24.jpg
I made two exposures, the sky is exposed darker and then manually merged with the edge along the horizon, should not affect sharpness etc in the picture.

You can still see that there is some sharpness loss towards the edges. I'm starting to shoot more at f/10 now to get more even sharpness.

I guess you can shoot pretty much anything with the PC-E 24mm or TS-E 24mm as you can with a 90mm on your 4x5", but the quality resolution-wise is not really at the same level.

Here's another example:
http://torger.dyndns.org/example-tse24-2.jpg
note that the rather heavy vignetting is added in post-processing for artistic purposes. In this picture the camera was mounted above my head and the lens shifted down 6mm. This shot is also at f/8, but should have used f/11, stuff a bit too close and most notably the left tree is a bit out of focus. This is an example which I could not shoot with my Techno, having the camera mounted above my head requires live view on a screen to look at from a distance to be able to see anything and compose the image.

(note: at some point I will take down the images in the urls, don't like to have my images all over the internet)

As stated is previous post above with links to test charts the TS-E 24mmII is a bit sharper than the Nikon PC-E 24mm, so when sharpness limitations is seen on the 21 megapixel Canon sensor with the TS-E 24, it will certainly be more obvious on the 36 megapixel Nikon sensor with the PC-E 24. I owned a 7D too so I could test the TS-E 24mm performance with very small pixels (would correspond to 45 megapixels fullframe), center performance is then fine, but when shifted to correspond to an unshifted fullframe corner it does not look that good regardless of aperture. My conclusion was that 135 systems cannot really do high resolution corner-to-corner on wide angles with the current lenses. It shall be interesting to see more results from the D800 though.

 

[Chris C]

.... several reviews I have read imply that the lens is sharpest across the frame at F5.6 and does not improve on stopping down - including edge and corner performance.

And that it suffers from field curvature?

............. Chris

 

[ohnri]

I found the 24 PC-E to be uninspired on my D3x and I happily sold it.

It's so-so optical quality combined with the lack of any way to change the relationship of tilt to shift on the fly makes it a marginal, albeit expensive, purchase.

-Bill

 

[danielmoore]

re: digitalpicture.com's 24 PCE, they must have had a remarkable sample. Comparing it to the 14-24 at 24mm they are 'pretty close'. My single lens test didn't fare as well. The absolute worst of it for my interior work was the lens distortion, which isn't shown in that resolution chart in any revealing way. When I can shoot and not have to un-distort a very carefully aligned scene and move through the images in the job quickly, that's key. Sure there are steps one can take to remove distortion, even automatically, but that harkens back to the day of shooting with a Canon 10D and 15mm fisheye and Panorama Tools plugins for me, something I'd just as soon forget. The 14-24 (@24mm)is so close to rectilinear it's done, and so am I. A lens that can produce a straight line from a straight line is the right tool for the job.

I'm quite fond of the 4:5 ratio (I put to you, how often is 3:2 the right choice?). I can see a predominance of my images being successful as crops with the D800 and the 24mm end of the lens.

 

[Paratom]

I he used my 24 PCE some time 2 years ago with a D3x and found it to be a good lense. I cant comment on the distorsion problem because I used it more for landscapes. I also specially liked the bokeh of the lens.

 

[torger]

The digital picture has distortion charts too, here's a comparison again between the Nikon PC-E 24 and Canon TS-E24II

Nikon 24mm f/3.5D ED PC-E Nikkor Lens Distortion Test Results

And here's a comparison with the 14-24 at 24mm:

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/...4&FLI=0&LensComp=615&CameraComp=614&FLIComp=5

and indeed less distortion in the 14-24 @ 24

 

[tjv]

Thanks so much for the comments and examples, Torger. They are great examples of what I was / am looking for. In my opinion, the Canon 24mm TS-E II looks like a great lens, certainly better thank the Nikon. I don't find the corners offensive at all and would be very happy with those kinds of results. Obviously my biggest hurdle is going to be moving from a 4x5" imaging area to a 35mm (cropped to 4x5 ratio) imaging area. Large format has a definite kind of look that I'm sure I'll miss. I will need to train myself to slow down and work in the same calculated way I would with my Linhof...

I have not used the PC-E 24mm for my own work, but Canon's counterpart the TS-E 24mm II on a 5D mark II. I recently decided to move to second-hand digital medium format though with a Linhof Techno to get a workflow more similar to 4x5".

I did mostly landscape with it and was very pleased with the results, if not shifting more than 6mm and using it at f/8-f/10 with the 21 megapixel sensor. The Canon has is better designed in the way that shift and tilt work independently.

If you need higher resolution than 20-22 megapixels I'm afraid that the 135 wide-angle options may be a bit disappointing though. It is one of the reason I got a MF system, to have better options on wide angles.

The live view is great in adjusting tilt and focusing, working with live view of the quality of the modern Canon and Nikon is in many aspects superior to ground glass I think, especially in dim lighting.

Here is one example image made with the TS-E 24 on the 5D mark II, f/8 with some tilt:
http://torger.dyndns.org/example-tse24.jpg
I made two exposures, the sky is exposed darker and then manually merged with the edge along the horizon, should not affect sharpness etc in the picture.

You can still see that there is some sharpness loss towards the edges. I'm starting to shoot more at f/10 now to get more even sharpness.

I guess you can shoot pretty much anything with the PC-E 24mm or TS-E 24mm as you can with a 90mm on your 4x5", but the quality resolution-wise is not really at the same level.

Here's another example:
http://torger.dyndns.org/example-tse24-2.jpg
note that the rather heavy vignetting is added in post-processing for artistic purposes. In this picture the camera was mounted above my head and the lens shifted down 6mm. This shot is also at f/8, but should have used f/11, stuff a bit too close and most notably the left tree is a bit out of focus. This is an example which I could not shoot with my Techno, having the camera mounted above my head requires live view on a screen to look at from a distance to be able to see anything and compose the image.

(note: at some point I will take down the images in the urls, don't like to have my images all over the internet)

As stated is previous post above with links to test charts the TS-E 24mmII is a bit sharper than the Nikon PC-E 24mm, so when sharpness limitations is seen on the 21 megapixel Canon sensor with the TS-E 24, it will certainly be more obvious on the 36 megapixel Nikon sensor with the PC-E 24. I owned a 7D too so I could test the TS-E 24mm performance with very small pixels (would correspond to 45 megapixels fullframe), center performance is then fine, but when shifted to correspond to an unshifted fullframe corner it does not look that good regardless of aperture. My conclusion was that 135 systems cannot really do high resolution corner-to-corner on wide angles with the current lenses. It shall be interesting to see more results from the D800 though.

 

[tjv]

Is it just me or does the Nikon seem to be lined up a bit off center in this test? The distortion doesn't seem symmetrical, if that's the right way to put it?

The digital picture has distortion charts too, here's a comparison again between the Nikon PC-E 24 and Canon TS-E24II

Nikon 24mm f/3.5D ED PC-E Nikkor Lens Distortion Test Results

And here's a comparison with the 14-24 at 24mm:

Nikon 24mm f/3.5D ED PC-E Nikkor Lens Distortion Test Results

and indeed less distortion in the 14-24 @ 24

 

[torger]

Is it just me or does the Nikon seem to be lined up a bit off center in this test? The distortion doesn't seem symmetrical, if that's the right way to put it?

Yes I think that the distortion test is not 100% perfectly made. If the camera is just slightly swung/tilted or rotated in relation to the chart it will look a bit asymmetrical. However, it is relatively easy to spot the barrell or pincushion distortion anyway. From the test description texts the sharpness tests is much more carefully made (fortunately).

 

[ssanacore]

I'd be interested to see those findings as well. I did a similar test to what you're asking and found that for moderate shifts I did better to shoot wider with a 14-24 and crop. A D800 should really make this a viable option. I only tried one 24 PC-E from lens rentals, and was underwhelmed.

I too am interested to see if the Nikon 24 Shift is up to the task for this new sensor. Color shifts and fall off can be solved with an LCC, but resolution can not. The new Canon shifts are wonderful but has anyone adapted them for us on the Nikon yet?

 

[ssanacore]

Hey, maybe Canon will at least make Nikon mount versions of their shift lenses if they don't want to make a high MP body

 

[vieri]

I too am interested to see if the Nikon 24 Shift is up to the task for this new sensor. Color shifts and fall off can be solved with an LCC, but resolution can not. The new Canon shifts are wonderful but has anyone adapted them for us on the Nikon yet?

That would be impossible, due to the shorter flange distance of the Canon lenses - as in, you can use Nikon lenses on a Canon body (there is room for the thickness of an adaptor between the body and the lens) but not the other way round.

 

[waynelake]

There is the Olympus 24mm shift lens, and Leitax adapters for Olympus lens to Nikon body, but no mention of that particular lens on the Leitax site... it might work, maybe...

 

[weinschela]

I know it is shift only, but has anyone used the Super Angulon 28 (which comes in Nikon mount)? And compared it to the Nikon 24PC-E?

 

[tashley]

Ming Thein, who's opinions I value, says the 24PCE is very good on the 800E so I am going to trial a second copy and see if I just had a truly crap sample. This is our best shot at movements for this camera in this FOV so between us all we need to bottom out hat is the best it can do...

 

[gustavo]

Ming told me the 24PCE has a very good performance with the d800e but only mounted on a very solid tripod and with a precise technique. He said that I should consider that lens only for very specific proposes.

 

[tashley]

Good to know. My tests were tripod, MUP, delay, and not bad technique and the lens was still crappy! So I will try another one....

 

[gustavo]

Tim, I enjoy your photographs, and supposed you have good technique. I´ve just tried to complete the Ming concept. Please share your conclusions with us.

 

[tashley]

I will! I'd love to hear what other people are finding too...