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Thread: D800E with 24mm PC-E

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    D800E with 24mm PC-E

    In short, fun but not 100% up to the job IMHO. The stuff that is enjoyable (the 'toy' look) is a bit gimmicky and the stuff it should be great at (edge to edge sharpness) is not its strongest suit. Very very sharp on centre, even wide open but especially stopped down a touch. Unshifted, the best compromise between edge sharpness and loss of resolution to diffraction is at F8. Shifting is harder to analyse and I need to take a lot more shots but so far, if I wanted to get the whole frame sharp, I wouldn't use this lens unless I was feeling slightly forgiving.

    Usability in terms of iterating swings or tilts on the D800E and getting the focus right is pretty good if not exactly a doodle. I have many shots where I have almost nailed a complex choice of focus points but not totally got it. No doubt more practice will improve things.

    Not sure if I'm going to keep it: once the novelty has worn off, it doesn't really fill its brief perfectly, but I'm not sure what other choice there currently are that would do better. At least rise seems to work well if you stop down a bit and lose the last bits of the sides... but the inconvenience of not being able to select the directions of shifts and tilts and swings is irritating too.

    anyhoo, some shots, just to prove I actually used it

    A couple of novelty shots...





    A couple of swings to get the plane of focus where I want it:





    those last two are available here if anyone wants to see what is and isn't in focus...

    http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p208888...de56#h2b05b9e4

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    and some more novelties!








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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Not heard good things about it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Tim,
    What were your settings for the "toy" look, it's very unique. Did you shoot any side by side, "toy and then not toy". the first frame and the dock, really look like a miniature.

    Paul

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Hi Paul,

    I will dig out a comparison shot later when back with the memory card but essentially, they are easily achieved: you just put on full swing, then re-centre the subject and focus on it, then choose your aperture for more or less DOF, which is now the width of the focus zone as described now from left to right, rather than front to rear. Fun, but also now widely available as cheesy in-camera or PP software effects, especially effective on cameras with very deep near-to-far DOF such as small sensor and phone cameras.

    The party trick I am pulling here is to do this on a large sensor that can be enlarged to very big sizes for print but still have a zone of perfect focus from very near to infinity.

    The reason it's often called the 'toy' effect is that can emulate the way in which a small model of a large scene appears when photographed with a macro lens, a scenarios which can give very narrow DOF effects. Using movements on a PC lens or technical camera tricks the eye into seeing the scene as a close up of a scale model.

    My usage here could, for example, also allow a shot where several people or objects placed in a line at right angles to the camera (imagine ten people on a beach, in a line reaching away from the camera) were all placed in focus, whereas everything to the left and right of them would be OOF.

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Tim:

    Thanks,
    By swing, you mean tilt? on the 24 TS-E. Do you have yours setup so that you can tilt and shift in the same axis. I have been told that you can send the lens to Nikon to have this done.

    Besides it's excellent detail resolution the tilt and shift in one axis ability on the new Canon TS-E is one really great feature. I never really understood all the benefits of tilt (probably still don't) until I start to use a tech camera. It made go back to the Canon and really take the time to figure out that lens.

    I only wish I could mount it on Nikon Just wont' work.

    Paul

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Swing is simply tilt on it's side. Google "scheimpflug" for why it works, here's a wiki link: Scheimpflug principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jack
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    .....By swing, you mean tilt? on the 24 TS-E. Do you have yours setup so that you can tilt and shift in the same axis......
    Paul-From the pictures you can see that [in landscape mode] it's set-up for swing around a vertical axis, and not for tilt. I find the rational behind this lens fairly bizarre, it's as if nobody told the designers that some photographers make vertical as well as landscape shots which need rise/drop, combined with tilt to control the plane of focus. Canon got their designs right, the Nikon seems long overdue a redesign.

    ............... Chris

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Here's an 'unswung' version slightly differently framed:



    And this was swing rather than tilt - as others have pointed out, swing lets you turn the zone of focus on an imaginary vertical pivot whereas tilt works on an imaginary horizontal pivot.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I just want some darn fish and chips. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Bud, I'll order you up some Salton Sea tilapia tacos!

    Jack
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    No thanks. This is a funny story about Tilapia. We had a great workshop in the Salton Sea area but we need to remember there is only one thing in that damn lake has in it and you guessed it Tilapia. Since it is so high in concentration of salt nothing else survives well either do the Tilapia as all the beaches is lined with dead Tilapia so you can just imagine how bad the smell is that goes with it. Not sure anyone has eaten it since that trip. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I'd send some from sunny Brighton but I'm sure it'd smell a bit Salton by the time it arrived...

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I know this is a big request, but are you able to demonstrate the off neutral sharpness in a photo that employs a large amount of rise? E.g. the side of a building? I'm interested in the 24mm PC-E but would need it to be sharp to the corners and from what you've described the drop off is pretty dramatic once movements start to be employed. Even if you could post some corner detail crops that would give me an indication, I'd be forever in your debt!

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    Senior Member danielmoore's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I'd be interested to see those findings as well. I did a similar test to what you're asking and found that for moderate shifts I did better to shoot wider with a 14-24 and crop. A D800 should really make this a viable option. I only tried one 24 PC-E from lens rentals, and was underwhelmed.

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    That's not good news at all. A total buzz kill, actually!

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmoore View Post
    I'd be interested to see those findings as well. I did a similar test to what you're asking and found that for moderate shifts I did better to shoot wider with a 14-24 and crop. A D800 should really make this a viable option. I only tried one 24 PC-E from lens rentals, and was underwhelmed.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I ran that test but got inconsistent results which I put down to user error so I will try it again when I get near a suitable building

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Awesome, thanks Tim.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    OK, a number of health warnings with these: I'm having a busy day so having combed the streets for the prefect building and finding none, I've gone for the best I could find in the time... not ideal. Also I only had a small Giottos CF travel tripod though at these shutter speeds that shouldn't matter.

    I have applied sharpening the the NEFs in LR at 60, 0.7, 70, 20 which is my standard lower ISO input sharpening for these files - it looks quite aggressive but is still less so than that used by default in C1. Profile used was Camera Standard

    I would suggest looking at these at 50% on screen. At which point IMHO they are useable for all but the most critical applications, especially if you take a couple steps back then crop a little.

    The files are uploading now to

    Tim Ashley Photography | D800E with PC-E 24mm

    It's the series of brick wall shots. Done all settings to neutral on the lens at first, then 5, 10 and 11 (full) rise. Converted to 91% quality JPEGS, Adobe RGB, no bothering with exposure or WB!

    Hope they are helpful if certainly not definitive... and I think I might have a slightly decentered element: the RHS is a little weaker than the left but since I might be sending this in to get it re-oriented I could have that looked at then. Unfortunately I ordered it well in advance of my cameras' arrivals so I'm out of the 1 month return period...

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I use a 24 PC-E with my D3x.
    It's just good enough. If only it was as good as the 85 PC-E.
    The 45 PC-E is fine, apart from some CA.
    If only we could use Canon's 24 TS mkII on the Nikon.

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    i'd like to see a 32 PC-E...

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Thanks Tim.
    Earlier in the day I wrote an epic reply but cyberspace lost it...
    Anyway, just wanted to say thanks a million and list some observations.
    Going by your samples, it seems the 24mm PC-E is just okay. To be honest, I was quite shocked to see so much CA, even when in neutral position. The silver car on the left of the frame is crazy around the doors! With 5 rise, the upper corners seem to be dropping off rather quickly and this is disturbing considering I'd mostly use it at around 8 or 9. 10mm is certainly getting bad, and 11 is total mush in the corners.
    Having said all of this, viewed at 50% as you suggest things look somewhat better. Do you think they'd be very good printed at 22 x 27.5"? Obviously this is worst case in terms of being noticeable – flat / two dimensional subject matter.
    TJV

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    What's importent for me is how it look in a magazine.
    I did a shoot while I still had a MFDB and a DSLR, honestly I couldn't tell the difference on the printed page.
    Even on a DPS.
    At the end I choose for the best DSLR sensor. At the time is was the D3x.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    TJV,

    Don't worry about the CA: one quick click in LR 4.1 release candidate gets rid of it.

    I will assume that your screen is 100DPI like mine. If that is true, this file

    http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/s3/v45/p758981101.jpg

    when viewed at 100% on screen will be a pretty good emulation of a 27.5" print.

    To get it I:

    1) Did (very) quick and dirty corrections to angle, horizontal transform and distortion

    2) Allowed LR to crop to constrain the crop to those corrections

    3) Used a quick brush with some increase to sharpness and clarity, brightness and sharpness and some increase to NR. I ran this selectively over parts of the top left and right corners, top edge, and upper parts of left and right edges.

    4) Exported it at 91% JPEG to 2750 pixels wide such that on a 100DPI monitor it will emulate a 27.5" wide print.

    Only you can say if it's good enough for you. For me the answer is, JUST... but then this is the version with 10 rise, and in most of my cases this would have sky as the content that required (and therefore probably would'\t require) extra treatment.

    One further note: I don't think my copy is quite 'right' because at close range the right hand side sometimes seems a little soft whereas at distance the sides are reversed. To me that's a lens with both field curvature and a de-centered element. So I am sending it back...

    Best

    Tim

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Thanks again, Tim. That's very, very informative. I can understand you thinking it is JUST good enough. I think I'm of the same opinion, especially considering I'm not used to doing extra steps to sharpen corners etc in my current film / digital workflow. I know it's just a habit thing, and I'm on a different planet with my 4x5" routine. Maybe I have too high expectations?

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I don't think your expectations are too high and I do think that someone will come along with a wide PC lens for FF Nikon that is better suited to the demands of this sensor. I'm going to send my copy of this lens back, because on 20+mp nikon sensors it has frequently reviewed as sharp from edge to edge and when viewed at equivalent resolutions, mine just isn't - so I think it's a 'friday lens'...

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    So, here we are: either my 24 PC-E is a bad copy or this lens is just not suited to the D800/E, even at 50% view.

    People say the Schneider isn't any better as far as I can gather... The Canons are good but they don't fit the Nikon cameras. Hartblei's widest is a 40mm.

    Any other options (other than shooting much wider and cropping?)

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Thanks for this post Tim, it's been most helpful.

    I was dreaming of this lens for a long time - guess I'll wait for Mk2 to be released.

    I'm sure Nikon will respond quite fast as they did with the 70-200mm Mk 2.

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Thanks Tim for the tests, I had hoped to see the 24 TS-E hold up better. The newer Canon is an excellent lens, but as you pointed out, can't be adapted to fit the Nikon mount due to loss of infinity focus. Hopefully Nikon will produce a newer version soon.

    Paul

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    So, here we are: either my 24 PC-E is a bad copy or this lens is just not suited to the D800/E, even at 50% view.

    People say the Schneider isn't any better as far as I can gather... The Canons are good but they don't fit the Nikon cameras. Hartblei's widest is a 40mm.

    Any other options (other than shooting much wider and cropping?)
    Tim, I have one that works pretty well on the D3x - all corners are equally sharp and (while minimally less sharp than the center WA) they certainly aren't mushy; one I'll be able to put my hands on a D800 - which will unfortunately be a couple of months, I am afraid, unless some jobs will pop up in Italy before that - I will surely check it out and share my impressions.

    I think it might come down to QC, in your case it's pretty evidently mis-aligned; however, both the 45 and 85 PC-E (which I also own) are MUCH better as far as sharpening goes, with the 85 the best of the bunch.

    If you are interested, I can see if I can conjure up a sharpness test for you on the D3x, let me know if eventual results on a 24Mp sensor would be of interest
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Quote Originally Posted by vieri View Post
    Tim, I have one that works pretty well on the D3x - all corners are equally sharp and (while minimally less sharp than the center WA) they certainly aren't mushy; one I'll be able to put my hands on a D800 - which will unfortunately be a couple of months, I am afraid, unless some jobs will pop up in Italy before that - I will surely check it out and share my impressions.

    I think it might come down to QC, in your case it's pretty evidently mis-aligned; however, both the 45 and 85 PC-E (which I also own) are MUCH better as far as sharpening goes, with the 85 the best of the bunch.

    If you are interested, I can see if I can conjure up a sharpness test for you on the D3x, let me know if eventual results on a 24Mp sensor would be of interest
    . Vieri, I would find that extremely interesting and useful. The optimal centre resolution is at f5.6 according to reviews, and mine is visibly a little diffracted at f8 on centre, though still very sharp. So if you had a chance to do a brick wall test at around 30-40 feet away at f 5.6 and at centred, 5 and ten rise that'd be wonderful. And if in your archive you have anything like a cityscape at f5.6 where I can see how sharp buildings are at the edges, I'd owe you a large testing favour!

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    Senior Member vieri's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    . Vieri, I would find that extremely interesting and useful. The optimal centre resolution is at f5.6 according to reviews, and mine is visibly a little diffracted at f8 on centre, though still very sharp. So if you had a chance to do a brick wall test at around 30-40 feet away at f 5.6 and at centred, 5 and ten rise that'd be wonderful. And if in your archive you have anything like a cityscape at f5.6 where I can see how sharp buildings are at the edges, I'd owe you a large testing favour!
    Sure thing Tim, will go out and try to find a suitable brick wall then No cityscapes in my archives, unfortunately, so far I mostly used the lens for non-share-allowed interior work (even if I could share it, I don't have images in the rise, shooting distance & f number range that you indicate). Will see if I can shoot a couple of far-distance cityscapes while I am at it, and get back to you in a couple of days (I hope). AFA the testing favor, I am sure I am not the only one here thinking that we all already have a huge testing-debt with you for all you are doing in letting the D800 known to us, so we are definitely square already, no worries!
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I forgot to mention!
    It's very important with Nikon's PC-E lenses that all the buttons are tight and that the swing is dead on zero.
    Also shooting at f9-11 is mandatory as well to get optimum sharpness.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    trouble is, diffraction on centre is visible from f8 :-(

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Any other options (other than shooting much wider and cropping?)
    Mamiya 28/4.5 and a Mirex adapter?

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    You really must use f/8, possibly even f/9-f/10 if you want reasonably equal sharpness corner-to-corner. One have to live with diffraction and use sharpen with deconvolution to restore most sharpness. At f/5.6 no wide angle lens for Canon/Nikon I know of is sharp corner-to-corner, I guess the required retrofocus design is just too complex.

    Also note that the max 11mm shift corresponds to 15-17mm for digital medium format, that is an amount that even schneiders and rodenstocks is struggling with. Keeping within say 6mm shift is more reasonable.

    It can be said though that Canon's TS-E 24mm is a better performer than Nikon's, it still needs f/8-f/10 for good corner-to-corner performance and Canon doesn't have a 36 megapixel sony exmor sensor...

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    You really must use f/8, possibly even f/9-f/10 if you want reasonably equal sharpness corner-to-corner. One have to live with diffraction and use sharpen with deconvolution to restore most sharpness. At f/5.6 no wide angle lens for Canon/Nikon I know of is sharp corner-to-corner, I guess the required retrofocus design is just too complex.

    Also note that the max 11mm shift corresponds to 15-17mm for digital medium format, that is an amount that even schneiders and rodenstocks is struggling with. Keeping within say 6mm shift is more reasonable.

    It can be said though that Canon's TS-E 24mm is a better performer than Nikon's, it still needs f/8-f/10 for good corner-to-corner performance and Canon doesn't have a 36 megapixel sony exmor sensor...

    I can't answer that because my copy is clearly f*kd but several reviews I have read imply that the lens is sharpest across the frame at F5.6 and does not improve on stopping down - including edge and corner performance.

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I can't answer that because my copy is clearly f*kd but several reviews I have read imply that the lens is sharpest across the frame at F5.6 and does not improve on stopping down - including edge and corner performance.
    Ok, I guess that's right then, the f/8 recommendation as a corner-to-corner tradeoff is more a general advice that fit most lenses, but I guess the PC-E 24 is a bit special then.

    I have from earlier experiences seen that the digital picture's test charts is quite good way to get an idea of how a lens performs, especially if you already own a "reference lens" so you can compare with:

    Nikon 24mm f/3.5D ED PC-E Nikkor Lens Image Quality

    And there I see that the corners of the PC-E 24 indeed does not really sharpen up much past f/5.6. Problem is that corners are not really that sharp at any aperture it seems :-\. The comparison link above compares it with the TS-E 24mm at f/8 (mouseover to see), you can look at other apertures too.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Thanks for posting that - what a great comparison tool!

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Well, I had a rather cutting reality call this evening. I looked in the fridge and realized I have only one box of 4x5" film left, that B&H is out of stock, and I need at least another 20 boxes to keep me going for the next two months. I also realized I now have over $2000USD worth of processing backed up. There is no way in hell I can afford to keep going on like this let alone catch up on the backlog. Rather than sitting back and weighing up how the D800E and a couple of PC-E lenses (the 24mm particularly) compares to my Linhof setup, I think my hand has been forced. What with film and processing prices climbing, not to mention the cost of quality drum scans, I find myself thinking "just good enough" might have to do. It's a sad day for me, indeed.

    I guess I'm scared of change and not exactly thrilled about giving up the large 4x5" imaging area and GG composition. For those of you that have used the 24mm PC-E and a full frame body, what sort of work do you use it for? Can anyone post some links to images that show off its potential rather than highlight its faults? I'm not talking gimmick effects, more architectural, landscape and environmental portrait work.

  41. #41
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    It's a sad day for me, indeed.
    I'm sorry to hear that... but I do think that the cost/benefit situation is driving you towards an inevitability...

    I have sent my 24PCE off to the great returns dept in the sky: the more I looked a the straight files from it, the more it didn't seem right. I hope to have a replacement soon and I do think that a good copy will be satisfactorily useable to your desired sizes unless there is some special juju that makes it perform badly on the D800s. I do think that is possible: if the 24-120 performs better than it 'should' then there's no reason why some lenses shouldn't perform worse...

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I have not used the PC-E 24mm for my own work, but Canon's counterpart the TS-E 24mm II on a 5D mark II. I recently decided to move to second-hand digital medium format though with a Linhof Techno to get a workflow more similar to 4x5".

    I did mostly landscape with it and was very pleased with the results, if not shifting more than 6mm and using it at f/8-f/10 with the 21 megapixel sensor. The Canon has is better designed in the way that shift and tilt work independently.

    If you need higher resolution than 20-22 megapixels I'm afraid that the 135 wide-angle options may be a bit disappointing though. It is one of the reason I got a MF system, to have better options on wide angles.

    The live view is great in adjusting tilt and focusing, working with live view of the quality of the modern Canon and Nikon is in many aspects superior to ground glass I think, especially in dim lighting.

    Here is one example image made with the TS-E 24 on the 5D mark II, f/8 with some tilt:
    http://torger.dyndns.org/example-tse24.jpg
    I made two exposures, the sky is exposed darker and then manually merged with the edge along the horizon, should not affect sharpness etc in the picture.

    You can still see that there is some sharpness loss towards the edges. I'm starting to shoot more at f/10 now to get more even sharpness.

    I guess you can shoot pretty much anything with the PC-E 24mm or TS-E 24mm as you can with a 90mm on your 4x5", but the quality resolution-wise is not really at the same level.

    Here's another example:
    http://torger.dyndns.org/example-tse24-2.jpg
    note that the rather heavy vignetting is added in post-processing for artistic purposes. In this picture the camera was mounted above my head and the lens shifted down 6mm. This shot is also at f/8, but should have used f/11, stuff a bit too close and most notably the left tree is a bit out of focus. This is an example which I could not shoot with my Techno, having the camera mounted above my head requires live view on a screen to look at from a distance to be able to see anything and compose the image.

    (note: at some point I will take down the images in the urls, don't like to have my images all over the internet)

    As stated is previous post above with links to test charts the TS-E 24mmII is a bit sharper than the Nikon PC-E 24mm, so when sharpness limitations is seen on the 21 megapixel Canon sensor with the TS-E 24, it will certainly be more obvious on the 36 megapixel Nikon sensor with the PC-E 24. I owned a 7D too so I could test the TS-E 24mm performance with very small pixels (would correspond to 45 megapixels fullframe), center performance is then fine, but when shifted to correspond to an unshifted fullframe corner it does not look that good regardless of aperture. My conclusion was that 135 systems cannot really do high resolution corner-to-corner on wide angles with the current lenses. It shall be interesting to see more results from the D800 though.
    Last edited by torger; 3rd May 2012 at 06:54.
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    .... several reviews I have read imply that the lens is sharpest across the frame at F5.6 and does not improve on stopping down - including edge and corner performance.
    And that it suffers from field curvature?

    ............. Chris

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I found the 24 PC-E to be uninspired on my D3x and I happily sold it.

    It's so-so optical quality combined with the lack of any way to change the relationship of tilt to shift on the fly makes it a marginal, albeit expensive, purchase.

    -Bill

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    Senior Member danielmoore's Avatar
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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    re: digitalpicture.com's 24 PCE, they must have had a remarkable sample. Comparing it to the 14-24 at 24mm they are 'pretty close'. My single lens test didn't fare as well. The absolute worst of it for my interior work was the lens distortion, which isn't shown in that resolution chart in any revealing way. When I can shoot and not have to un-distort a very carefully aligned scene and move through the images in the job quickly, that's key. Sure there are steps one can take to remove distortion, even automatically, but that harkens back to the day of shooting with a Canon 10D and 15mm fisheye and Panorama Tools plugins for me, something I'd just as soon forget. The 14-24 (@24mm)is so close to rectilinear it's done, and so am I. A lens that can produce a straight line from a straight line is the right tool for the job.

    I'm quite fond of the 4:5 ratio (I put to you, how often is 3:2 the right choice?). I can see a predominance of my images being successful as crops with the D800 and the 24mm end of the lens.
    Last edited by danielmoore; 3rd May 2012 at 23:30. Reason: corrected lens specifics

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    I he used my 24 PCE some time 2 years ago with a D3x and found it to be a good lense. I cant comment on the distorsion problem because I used it more for landscapes. I also specially liked the bokeh of the lens.

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    The digital picture has distortion charts too, here's a comparison again between the Nikon PC-E 24 and Canon TS-E24II

    Nikon 24mm f/3.5D ED PC-E Nikkor Lens Distortion Test Results

    And here's a comparison with the 14-24 at 24mm:

    http://www.the-digital-picture.com/R...=614&FLIComp=5

    and indeed less distortion in the 14-24 @ 24

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Thanks so much for the comments and examples, Torger. They are great examples of what I was / am looking for. In my opinion, the Canon 24mm TS-E II looks like a great lens, certainly better thank the Nikon. I don't find the corners offensive at all and would be very happy with those kinds of results. Obviously my biggest hurdle is going to be moving from a 4x5" imaging area to a 35mm (cropped to 4x5 ratio) imaging area. Large format has a definite kind of look that I'm sure I'll miss. I will need to train myself to slow down and work in the same calculated way I would with my Linhof...

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I have not used the PC-E 24mm for my own work, but Canon's counterpart the TS-E 24mm II on a 5D mark II. I recently decided to move to second-hand digital medium format though with a Linhof Techno to get a workflow more similar to 4x5".

    I did mostly landscape with it and was very pleased with the results, if not shifting more than 6mm and using it at f/8-f/10 with the 21 megapixel sensor. The Canon has is better designed in the way that shift and tilt work independently.

    If you need higher resolution than 20-22 megapixels I'm afraid that the 135 wide-angle options may be a bit disappointing though. It is one of the reason I got a MF system, to have better options on wide angles.

    The live view is great in adjusting tilt and focusing, working with live view of the quality of the modern Canon and Nikon is in many aspects superior to ground glass I think, especially in dim lighting.

    Here is one example image made with the TS-E 24 on the 5D mark II, f/8 with some tilt:
    http://torger.dyndns.org/example-tse24.jpg
    I made two exposures, the sky is exposed darker and then manually merged with the edge along the horizon, should not affect sharpness etc in the picture.

    You can still see that there is some sharpness loss towards the edges. I'm starting to shoot more at f/10 now to get more even sharpness.

    I guess you can shoot pretty much anything with the PC-E 24mm or TS-E 24mm as you can with a 90mm on your 4x5", but the quality resolution-wise is not really at the same level.

    Here's another example:
    http://torger.dyndns.org/example-tse24-2.jpg
    note that the rather heavy vignetting is added in post-processing for artistic purposes. In this picture the camera was mounted above my head and the lens shifted down 6mm. This shot is also at f/8, but should have used f/11, stuff a bit too close and most notably the left tree is a bit out of focus. This is an example which I could not shoot with my Techno, having the camera mounted above my head requires live view on a screen to look at from a distance to be able to see anything and compose the image.

    (note: at some point I will take down the images in the urls, don't like to have my images all over the internet)

    As stated is previous post above with links to test charts the TS-E 24mmII is a bit sharper than the Nikon PC-E 24mm, so when sharpness limitations is seen on the 21 megapixel Canon sensor with the TS-E 24, it will certainly be more obvious on the 36 megapixel Nikon sensor with the PC-E 24. I owned a 7D too so I could test the TS-E 24mm performance with very small pixels (would correspond to 45 megapixels fullframe), center performance is then fine, but when shifted to correspond to an unshifted fullframe corner it does not look that good regardless of aperture. My conclusion was that 135 systems cannot really do high resolution corner-to-corner on wide angles with the current lenses. It shall be interesting to see more results from the D800 though.

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Is it just me or does the Nikon seem to be lined up a bit off center in this test? The distortion doesn't seem symmetrical, if that's the right way to put it?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    The digital picture has distortion charts too, here's a comparison again between the Nikon PC-E 24 and Canon TS-E24II

    Nikon 24mm f/3.5D ED PC-E Nikkor Lens Distortion Test Results

    And here's a comparison with the 14-24 at 24mm:

    Nikon 24mm f/3.5D ED PC-E Nikkor Lens Distortion Test Results

    and indeed less distortion in the 14-24 @ 24

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    Re: D800E with 24mm PC-E

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Is it just me or does the Nikon seem to be lined up a bit off center in this test? The distortion doesn't seem symmetrical, if that's the right way to put it?
    Yes I think that the distortion test is not 100% perfectly made. If the camera is just slightly swung/tilted or rotated in relation to the chart it will look a bit asymmetrical. However, it is relatively easy to spot the barrell or pincushion distortion anyway. From the test description texts the sharpness tests is much more carefully made (fortunately).

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