D800 v D800E, chapter 6

[paulraphael]

I am not so sure. Assume polarized light hits the first splitter (call it vertical), so a single point source turns into 2 points even though it's polarized.

Aparently not. As it's been explained to me, AA filters typically use a birefringement material like Lithium Niobate, to split the beam. If the incoming light is polarized in the direction parallel to the material's axis of refraction, the light won't split.

It will still be split in the other direction, by the d800's other filter plate, but this means you'd get only half of the filter's intended effect, and it would be in just one direction.

 

[Shashin]

Aparently not. As it's been explained to me, AA filters typically use a birefringement material like Lithium Niobate, to split the beam. If the incoming light is polarized in the direction parallel to the material's axis of refraction, the light won't split.

It will still be split in the other direction, by the d800's other filter plate, but this means you'd get only half of the filter's intended effect, and it would be in just one direction.

Actually, a linear polarizer will create two polarized rays at 90 degrees to each other, known as the ordinary and extraordinary rays. So a polarizer is not going to eliminate, but create the two light paths that are split in two directions. Sorry, but your polarizer idea will not work.

 

[paulraphael]

Sorry, but your polarizer idea will not work.

Not my idea; it's my friend Struan's. He just demonstrated it quite conclusively here.

 

[Shashin]

Not my idea; it's my friend Struan's. He just demonstrated it quite conclusively here.

Perhaps he can demonstrate it in a forum that does not require a login.

 

[paulraphael]

Oh, sorry. It's in an 'off topic' section at the LF photo site, where they try to keep any damage safely contained. I'll see if Struan minds me reposting his results.

 

[Shashin]

Not my idea; it's my friend Struan's. He just demonstrated it quite conclusively here.

I registered, although I don't know if other member would want to do the same.

I would say it is suggestive rather than conclusive. Why are the two images of the targets different sizes (this looks like sloppy work--how much does the different image scale impact the results?) and why symmetrical? The symmetry question might be easier to explain; AA filter must be at 45 degrees to the sensor grid and angle of polarization for symmetry to take place. And you would need to test it on the AA filter on the D800--you can't assume all AA filters will behave the same. But that still might not be enough to turn a D800 into a D800E. Still, an interesting idea.

 

[paulraphael]

Struan has given me permission to post here; I'll do it when I have a chance. He has an engineering background and says this is extremely basic polarization science. My money says he's onto something that's at least of interest from a pixel-peeping geek standpoint, though maybe not a practical one.

This was a quick test; of course you're right it's not conclusive by scientific standards but it's compelling. I'm willing to bet people with d800s will be able to duplicate his results.

 

[Jack]

So I viewed his "proof" -- clearly the polarizer affects moire pattern, but it's really tough to go so far as agree with his claim he's turned a D800 into a D800E; at the very least we'd need to see an E shot of the same moire grating...

Personally, I think the files are so freaking close to begin with and the differences being generated are so small, they don't amount to much more than academic white noise...

 

[paulraphael]

He's qualified the idea that it turns an 800 to an 800e; it only removes the effects of one of the two birefringement plates. The unanswered question from his demonstration is why the effects aren't more obviously asymmetrical. You'ld expect to see more moiré/resolution in either vertical or horizontal detail, but not in both.

It would be one thing if the files showed nothing but differences in moiré, but they also show differences in resolution.

It's looking to me like the differences between the 800 and 800e are already close to the realm of academic white noise, so I don't see the harm in playing by those rules

 

[Jack]

It's looking to me like the differences between the 800 and 800e are already close to the realm of academic white noise, so I don't see the harm in playing by those rules

Agree totally -- my only concern is folks making buying decisions because they take comments like these literally and without respecting the quantifiers

 

[Jan Brittenson]

Aparently not. As it's been explained to me, AA filters typically use a birefringement material like Lithium Niobate, to split the beam. If the incoming light is polarized in the direction parallel to the material's axis of refraction, the light won't split.

Just about all modern imaging systems use wavefront filters; these have microscopic bumps or concavities that causes light to interfere with itself. A one-dimensional (X or Y axis) blur filter has a corrugated surface. Two of these are then rotated 90 degrees. Presumably this is easier (i.e. cheaper) to manufacture to high standards than bumps. I don't know that any special material is needed, and I bet Nikon makes their filters out of polycarbonate (optical plastic).

There are all sorts of reasons why a polarizer might produce better resolution. An increase in contrast would be my primary suspect...

 

[zebra]

Hi, everybody!

My name's Vladimir, I live in Russia and have just registered here in order to express my thanks to the topicstarter, Jack.

Jack, you really have taken a heavy burden off my shoulders, you know.

The fact is I was one of the first enthusiast photographers in Russia to buy the d800 a month ago. They are not selling the d800e here yet, it will appear on the counters in a month's time. Nobody wants to buy the d800 now waiting for the d800e and believing in its outstanding qualities as regards resolution and detail. They say I've done a very thoughtless thing buying the model without letter E as I'm loosing a considerable part of crispness and acuity with it. By reading this topic I became more confident about the good qualities of my camera.
I find the discussion here very useful.
Thanks.

 

[D&A]

Hi Vladimire,

Welcome to the forums. I"m sure many will chime in here in response to your 1st post, but let me just say that even if there was a quite noticeable difference in image detail between the D800 and D800E (which there isn't in my opinion too), the D800 is a phenomenal achievement in 35mm DSLR's and capable of extraordinary performance, especially in producing very large file sizes suitable for substantial size Professional quality large format prints. In that regard and for many other uses, you have a phenomenal photographic tool and both models perform so similary, that for the vast majority of uses, most would never be able to distinguish any difference between the two when used in most practical applications. Enjoy your new camera!

Dave (D&A)

 

[ustein]

>They say I've done a very thoughtless thing buying the model without letter E

Of course it is very thoughtless to take pictures why the others wait .

 

[zebra]

>They say I've done a very thoughtless thing buying the model without letter E

Of course it is very thoughtless to take pictures why the others wait .

Really! With my d800 I've taken over 2 000 pics which I enjoy. And who knows how long they will still be waiting for their d800e. The supply of that model is a bit unpredictable.

And, as I understand now, thanks to this forum, the hype over the d800e is very much exaggerated.

 

[zebra]

Hi Vladimire,

Welcome to the forums. .... Enjoy your new camera!

Dave (D&A)

Thanks, Dave.

 

[tashley]

Really! With my d800 I've taken over 2 000 pics which I enjoy. And who knows how long they will still be waiting for their d800e. The supply of that model is a bit unpredictable.

And, as I understand now, thanks to this forum, the hype over the d800e is very much exaggerated.

Not all of us think so! And AFAIK I'm the only person here with both...

 

[Jack]

Hi, everybody!

My name's Vladimir, I live in Russia and have just registered here in order to express my thanks to the topicstarter, Jack.

Jack, you really have taken a heavy burden off my shoulders, you know.

The fact is I was one of the first enthusiast photographers in Russia to buy the d800 a month ago. They are not selling the d800e here yet, it will appear on the counters in a month's time. Nobody wants to buy the d800 now waiting for the d800e and believing in its outstanding qualities as regards resolution and detail. They say I've done a very thoughtless thing buying the model without letter E as I'm loosing a considerable part of crispness and acuity with it. By reading this topic I became more confident about the good qualities of my camera.
I find the discussion here very useful.
Thanks.

Welcome to GetDPI Vladimir! To be sure, the D800 is a fantastic camera, and I am sure it will give you many, many outstanding images! The fact you've already shot 2000 frames on yours is proof to the wisdom of not waiting for something else

 

[paulraphael]

Just about all modern imaging systems use wavefront filters

Almost all the OLPFs I've seen use crystaline birefringement material. Including quartz.

Other examples here, here, and here.

I don't understand what you're saying about corrugated surfaces. Polycarbonate is a birefringent material without doing anything to it. Higher quality filters seem to use other materials more often, but the design and the optical principles are fundamentally the same, whether the filter uses polycarbonate or some more exotic crystal.

 

[zebra]

Welcome to GetDPI Vladimir! To be sure, the D800 is a fantastic camera, and I am sure it will give you many, many outstanding images! The fact you've already shot 2000 frames on yours is proof to the wisdom of not waiting for something else

Jack, Tim Ashley, let me tell you that I am happy to be in the company of such famous experts as you are, as Guy Mancuso is. I read quite a few of your tests, reviews and articles on the MF backs earlier, saw your pics etc.
I really expect to learn quite a lot from you here.

It's a long way to go from the Volga river in Russia where I live, to America where you live, but who knows, maybe one day I'll come over and take part in your master classes and we'll make a shootout together!:clap:

Or, maybe you one day come to Russia...