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Thread: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

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    D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    so went out to test the newly bought D800E against my Hasselblad H3Dii-50
    in short, the D800E was not even close to the Hasselblad when it comes to portrait
    went out before sunset with a Profoto B2
    under the same setting except the D800E being native ISO 100 and Hasselblad ISO 50
    the Hasselblad gave a much more desirable skin tone and a much more 3D feel to it
    it went back to the micro contrast that have been debated over and over again
    the D800E even without the AA filter still gives a much flatter feel overall
    there is highlight and there is shadow, but its what between them that makes all the difference

    however if all you are after is detail, the 36MP is holding up very well comparing to my 50MP back

    so if you already have medium format, stick with it, if you dont, be happy with the D800 its still great

    sorry no photos to show because the model was my girlfriend

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    That's interesting, what lens did you use for portraits? There have been reviews that have made that distinction too. I don't know the dimensions of the H3DII/50, but i'm sure there's a nicer, more shallow DOF from the MFD, that might add to the 3D effect. Also, with my H models and M9, I've never found moire, only some small color artifacts in shiny areas.

    For me, the D800 is kinda of like a Swiss Army knife of cameras, good for most applications, but MFD is best for 3D.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Now we all really, really - wanna se your girlfriend..

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    How about a crop of an ear or something?

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    What lenses did you use? And what f stpos for each lens?

    Also what software did you use for the processing?

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    I know exactly what you mean, but am sitting this one out.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Maybe we don't want to see. Lol

    I'm just joking . Hungover a little here. 3 days of golf really makes you wonder if anything is pretty again. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Maybe we don't want to see. Lol

    I'm just joking . Hungover a little here. 3 days of golf really makes you wonder if anything is pretty again. Lol
    I didn't know golf was so inebriating....
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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    I was a good boy and listened to Nikon advise to use a Nano Coated 24-70
    but I am looking to try other lenses like the 200 f2 (mine is without N coating) and other older lenses like Angenieux 180 f2.3
    however I think the better lens will certainly give a more 3D feel to it but the change from highlight to shadow is just not the same
    bigger is still better


    perhpas I should go shoot a few more pictures to show when I have time

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    I really love the hassy but lets be honest. If all you are getting is "micro contrast" for 7 times your investment then the D800 wins hands down.

    Let me be clear, I like shooting with MF for a number of reasons. But, this kind of comparison is like comparing a Ferrari to a Camero and saying the Ferrari wins because it has 3 more layers of clear coat paint.

    An H4D-40 body @ $17,995 vs a Nikon D800e @ $3,300 better give a working (business owner) photographer a hell of a lot more than "micro contrast".

    Frankly I am concerned for the future of MF market. It seems as MF owners all we keep getting are new fancy touch screens and bells and whistles while the 35mm companies are making dramatic leaps in IQ and better and better ISO performance. With 14 stops of dynamic range and iso 6400 (not at the same time of course) its only another 24-36 months and this micro contrast advantage will be disappear as well.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Love View Post

    Frankly I am concerned for the future of MF market. It seems as MF owners all we keep getting are new fancy touch screens and bells and whistles while the 35mm companies are making dramatic leaps in IQ and better and better ISO performance. With 14 stops of dynamic range and iso 6400 (not at the same time of course) its only another 24-36 months and this micro contrast advantage will be disappear as well.
    Frankly, if and when I see the IQ I'm looking for, I'll be all for jumping back into the 35mm world. Maybe it'll be 24-36 months ... maybe not. In the meanwhile, however, I can have what I currently see in MF ... today. So I'm committed to it.

    Some folks want to push aside the whole micro contrast difference, but for me, that's why I went in the MF direction. There is a flatness to D800 files that leaves me ho-hum (I shot with a D3 for over a year so there is on prejudice against 35mm or Nikon.) The D3 helped me complete jobs for clients, but when I look back on the images, I'm left with a feeling of ambivalence compared to the images I've shot with MF gear.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    I always find it a bit funny that when it comes to 35mm DSLR vs MF Digital comparisons there are nearly never images to back them up. This is because the difference has pretty much fizzled away.

    Same thing goes for a lens test comparison that was posted on mamiya's website. All sorts of claims were made about mamiya superiority over Hasselblad H (Fuji) lenses, but no images were posted to support those claims. What was really funny was that it was claimed to be an independent study while the author of the study had consultant for mamiya USA on his linkedin resume...

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    What lens did you use on the 'Blad? Did I miss that part? I might also suggest that the Nikon 24-70mm G, while better than the Canon MKI equivalent, is in my opinion pretty average, especially on the extreme end of the range.

    I have not used the Hasselblad H system, but I understand that the zooms are very good, especially the 35–90mm, although it's considerably slower than the Nikon at f4-5.6.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    And whose set of eyes are going to be the judge of those comparisons? Some see more there and some not so much. I'd love to reduce my gear overhead, I just haven't seen what I'm looking for. So far, I've mostly seen stopped down shots of landscapes. That's great for the tech camera crowd, but I'd like to how shallow depth of field and portraits look.

    I'm interested in seeing some of your shots with the camera, Fred. You have a certain aesthetic you are looking to achieve, especially as it is influenced by your work with MF.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    I too find it a bit frustrating that the claimed tonal range 3D-ness etc superiority of the MF systems is never demonstrated in pictures... I recently got an MF system myself (for different reasons than "dimensionality and clarity") and I've tried to see something special other than superior resolution, but I can't really see it. But then again I shoot landscapes, not portraits.

    It would be really interesting to get to see image A from a DSLR and B from a MF system of the same scene (probably a short DOF portrait, it seems that is were the MF shines the most, except for the resolution part that is) and someone that points out which things that are better in the MF picture.

    It sometimes feels like back in my audiophile days when people claimed to hear very large difference between different (superexpensive) cables, and I didn't hear a thing different... I'm not saying that differences don't exist but it would be nice to know if it is the kind of differences similar to that audiophile situation, that is only a small set of people can see it...
    Last edited by torger; 8th May 2012 at 03:01.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by donaldt View Post

    so went out to test the newly bought D800E against my Hasselblad H3Dii-50
    in short, the D800E was not even close to the Hasselblad when it comes to portrait
    Thank you for your observations.

    2008: Hasselblad H3Dii-50: Price US$ 39,995.00

    2012: Nikon D800/D800E : Price: US$3000/3200..( rounded figures ).

    2012: Hasselblad H3Dii-50, 50 mp sensor maker in bankcruptcy.

    I am sure the Hasselblad H3Dii-50 takes very good portraits.

    Enjoy.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Love View Post
    I really love the hassy but lets be honest. If all you are getting is "micro contrast" for 7 times your investment then the D800 wins hands down.

    Let me be clear, I like shooting with MF for a number of reasons. But, this kind of comparison is like comparing a Ferrari to a Camero and saying the Ferrari wins because it has 3 more layers of clear coat paint.

    An H4D-40 body @ $17,995 vs a Nikon D800e @ $3,300 better give a working (business owner) photographer a hell of a lot more than "micro contrast".

    Frankly I am concerned for the future of MF market. It seems as MF owners all we keep getting are new fancy touch screens and bells and whistles while the 35mm companies are making dramatic leaps in IQ and better and better ISO performance. With 14 stops of dynamic range and iso 6400 (not at the same time of course) its only another 24-36 months and this micro contrast advantage will be disappear as well.
    Okay, I lied. Probably shouldn't but I will ...

    There is more than Micro Contrast. That you can't see the difference, doesn't mean others can't.

    I do not equate more meg with Image Qualities ... Image Qualities are a function of an entire imaging chain, not just a higher res. sensor.

    Each one of these systems has a signature look and feel to some degree or another. 3rd party lenses, and post work may mitigate that, but you don't suddenly alter the over-all signature in post without an enormous effort that varies form one shooting circumstance to the next. That is one reason I sold my Nikon D3X ... way too much work to reach its potential ... a look I was after that I could get immediately with a Sony A900 sporting the same meg count.

    After working with just about every 35mm system out there, at length, for 10s of thousands of shots each, I'm no longer so arrogant as to think I can alter the basic signature with superior post skills, like I once did. Canon looks like Canon, Nikon like Nikon, and so forth.

    So, we each select the imaging aesthetic that appeals to our eye ... if someone like Fred likes the aesthetic of the D800 and large format film then that's his path ... and he's willing to pay the price in time and effort to work with LG format film to get it.

    So far, I do not like the aesthetic presented by the D800, and see a dramatic difference in image qualities compared to MFD. I can't be definitive about that since I haven't shot with one at any length. However, playing around with large files provided hasn't changed my opinion, and reinforces my learning curve regarding signature look. To be clear, I am not just ambivalent about it, I REALLY do not like the look and feel ... which would dismay me if I rushed to pay $15K+ for the D800 system elements I'd need. Value is not just a function of numbers, it is one of satisfaction in the results. So, buying 6 D800s to 1 H4D/40 is irrelevant.

    The often quoted "80% to 90% of MFD" buzz word seems odd to me. First off, I don't buy it because it is an empirical number trying to measure an aesthetic human response. Using the same reckoning and applying my own criteria, I'd place the D800 aesthetic at about 1/2 that of my S2 if even that ... miles apart if compared to my H4D/60 which delivers even more of that over-all MF look and feel than the S2 does.

    In short, if someone like Fred finds his creative needs met with his path, nothing anyone says will alter that creative opinion. I'm no different.

    It all is what makes photography so intriguing. Personal, human reactions color our preferences as we struggle to express ourselves, and NO ONE ELSE is seeing through my eyes except me. So, I don't care if I'm the last man standing with a MFD camera in hand. I think I'll stipulate that my ashes be interned inside a Leica S2 lens instead of a vase ...

    -Marc
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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Guys,

    Can't we all just agree that:

    For the price of admission, the Nikon D800 is an attractive camera, and that as good as it is, on several counts current and prior generation MF are still notably better. And let's face it, regardless of pixel count, there is a "look" to MF that is not present in smaller frame captures. Whether or not the subtleties of that are worth the price of admission is up to the end user IMHO.

    What bothers me -- and I believe it bothers most MF shooters and tends to incite the passionate responses -- is a system getting repeatedly dissed by somebody simply because they can not or choose not to spend for it. I can appreciate a Ferrari even though I'll likely never be able to own one, I don't point out all of its foibles and idiosyncrasies and then compare select parts of it to those on a Jetta...
    Jack
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    D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Guys,

    Can't we all just agree that:

    For the price of admission, the Nikon D800 is an attractive camera, and that as good as it is, on several counts current and prior generation MF are still notably better. And let's face it, regardless of pixel count, there is a "look" to MF that is not present in smaller frame captures. Whether or not the subtleties of that are worth the price of admission is up to the end user IMHO. (...)

    + 1

    Yes - pleeaaase ...

    Format and / or brand comparisons are only interesting when illustrated in a way so that we can see and judge for ourselves.

    And often it's more about 'today's technology compared to yesterday's technology' than about brands or formats as such.

    For me a larger sensor area will always mean room for larger photosites, i.e. larger wells gathering more light.

    And that goes for the entire range of digital formats:

    Tiny sensors >> Four-Thirds >> APS-C >> 35mm >> Medium Format >> ...

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Thank you for your observations.


    2012: Hasselblad H3Dii-50, 50 mp sensor maker in bankcruptcy.


    Enjoy.
    True Sense is far from bankrupt and is now part of a very solid and large group
    with very deep pockets.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by donaldt View Post
    I was a good boy and listened to Nikon advise to use a Nano Coated 24-70
    but I am looking to try other lenses like the 200 f2 (mine is without N coating) and other older lenses like Angenieux 180 f2.3
    however I think the better lens will certainly give a more 3D feel to it but the change from highlight to shadow is just not the same
    bigger is still better


    perhpas I should go shoot a few more pictures to show when I have time
    Zoom lens VS prime lens?

    What was on the Hasselblad?

    Here is the difference between the Nikon 50mm 1.4 and the Nikon 24-70, both at 2.8





    You can clearly see that the prime had heaps more micro contrast.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    I'm interested in seeing some of your shots with the camera, Fred. You have a certain aesthetic you are looking to achieve, especially as it is influenced by your work with MF.
    I don't have anything that I can post yet with the new generation cameras. Too busy working on my portraits book and I can't post recent images from that.
    I am liking the 85mm PC-E lens and have the 45mm PC-e on order.

    But here is something in the mean time shot with the old Canon 1ds mark 1 with the 100mm f2. I used a dirty little trick...camera screwed onto a 4 lb chunck of metal to dampen all vibration.
    I added some fine grain too.




    Optically this was getting there, but you can see the limitations of the sensor's quantization, but that's totally changed with the D800.
    Last edited by FredBGG; 8th May 2012 at 14:58.
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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    True Sense is far from bankrupt and is now part of a very solid and large group
    with very deep pockets.
    Fred, you are correct as stated above.

    Kodak's image sensor division which made/makes the KAF-50100 sensor was
    sold off to Platinum Equity.

    Kodak, the original parent of True Sense ( new name now ) is in bankruptcy protection. Under which it of course can sell off its assets; as in this case.

    The camera itself, the H3DII-50, is a discontinued product. Spare parts available for 5 years, 10 years? The extended program from Hasselblad is valid generally for 5 years for spares and repairs; as I understand it. I could be wrong.

    My Leica MP has a guaranteed availability of spare parts for 30 years; as stated
    by my Leica dealer when I bought the MP.

    To have a US$ 39,995 product discontinued, and its sensor making entity sold to ( primarily ) a M&A firm does give me pause; even though I have to reluctantly accept the digital product cycle in cameras.

    Regards.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    + 1

    Yes - pleeaaase ...

    Format and / or brand comparisons are only interesting when illustrated in a way so that we can see and judge for ourselves.

    And often it's more about 'today's technology compared to yesterday's technology' than about brands or formats as such.

    For me a larger sensor area will always mean room for larger photosites, i.e. larger wells gathering more light.

    And that goes for the entire range of digital formats:

    Tiny sensors >> Four-Thirds >> APS-C >> 35mm >> Medium Format >> ...
    +2

    I'm not even sure it is about old verses new technology.

    The haunting thing lurking in the back of my brain is that for much work, some of the 22 to 33 meg larger photosite sensor backs had something many described as magical. Sometimes I look back on my Hassey 203FE work with a CFV/16 back and wonder about that.

    To late now ...

    -Marc

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Fred, you are correct as stated above.

    Kodak's image sensor division which made/makes the KAF-50100 sensor was
    sold off to Platinum Equity.

    Kodak, the original parent of True Sense ( new name now ) is in bankruptcy protection. Under which it of course can sell off its assets; as in this case.

    The camera itself, the H3DII-50, is a discontinued product. Spare parts available for 5 years, 10 years? The extended program from Hasselblad is valid generally for 5 years for spares and repairs; as I understand it. I could be wrong.

    My Leica MP has a guaranteed availability of spare parts for 30 years; as stated
    by my Leica dealer when I bought the MP.

    To have a US$ 39,995 product discontinued, and its sensor making entity sold to ( primarily ) a M&A firm does give me pause; even though I have to reluctantly accept the digital product cycle in cameras.

    Regards.
    You paid $40K for a H3D-II/50? Really?

    The H3D-II has been discontinued, but it shares many parts with the H4D, so I wouldn't worry to much about it.

    The 50 meg sensor is still current, and is available in 50 single shot, 50/Multi-Shot, and 200 multi-shot.

    Hope you got that Leica guarantee of parts for 30 years in writing ...

    -Marc

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    You paid $40K for a H3D-II/50? Really?

    The H3D-II has been discontinued, but it shares many parts with the H4D, so I wouldn't worry to much about it.

    The 50 meg sensor is still current, and is available in 50 single shot, 50/Multi-Shot, and 200 multi-shot.

    Hope you got that Leica guarantee of parts for 30 years in writing ...

    -Marc
    1. No. I did not pay US$ 40K for a H3D-II/50. Really I did not. Show me where I said I did.

    2. I do not need to worry, I know. I have never bought nor do I intend to ever buy Hasselblad or anything resembling it in Medium or Large format. Where have I said I bought or owned or used or borrowed the said equipment. The H3D-II/50, of course.

    3. The sensor is still current. Have I said it is not? If I did, please show me where.

    4. Make it easy for you, as it was for me. When I bought the MP, I was told by
    my very reputable Leica dealer that Leica would guarantee availability of parts
    for my MP for upto 30 years from the date of purchase. I trusted my dealer on this. I did not get a written guarantee to this effect.

    Why don't you ask your Leica dealer about the MP parts availability. It might have gone down to 25 years now. Inflation!

    By the way, $40K was never mentioned. It was US$ 39,995. I got the price from here:

    Hasselblad assembles megapixel monster: Digital Photography Review

    Of course, it was such a long time ago US Dollars.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    1. No. I did not pay US$ 40K for a H3D-II/50. Really I did not. Show me where I said I did.

    2. I do not need to worry, I know. I have never bought nor do I intend to ever buy Hasselblad or anything resembling it in Medium or Large format. Where have I said I bought or owned or used or borrowed the said equipment. The H3D-II/50, of course.

    3. The sensor is still current. Have I said it is not? If I did, please show me where.

    4. Make it easy for you, as it was for me. When I bought the MP, I was told by
    my very reputable Leica dealer that Leica would guarantee availability of parts
    for my MP for upto 30 years from the date of purchase. I trusted my dealer on this. I did not get a written guarantee to this effect.

    Why don't you ask your Leica dealer about the MP parts availability. It might have gone down to 25 years now. Inflation!

    By the way, $40K was never mentioned. It was US$ 39,995. I got the price from here:

    Hasselblad assembles megapixel monster: Digital Photography Review

    Of course, it was such a long time ago US Dollars.
    My mistake.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Here is the only really interesting d800 vs. Hasselblad test I've seen. Partly because it was blind (the evaluator had no idea what two cameras were being compared) and partly because of the evaluator's expertise. He does prepress work for fine art reproduction, which has extrememly rigorous demands. It's also extremely specialized, so the degree to which the differences he fixates on apply to my work or yours is open to interpretation. (Also, there's the notable omission about differences in raw processing).

    There's nothing in this test that would tempt me from the 800 to the Hasselblad, but I do believe there are differences which in some circumstances will be substantial.

    I'll add that I hope the medium format industry manages to stay healthy and competetive. I think it's in danger from dslrs now, not because the d800 is as good, but because for many people it is more than good enough, certainly considering the costs. I worry that anything that eats into MF's small market share might compound its already serious problems with economies fo scale. I'd like to see the d800 act as a positive kick in MF's ***, not an injurious one.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    Here is the only really interesting d800 vs. Hasselblad test I've seen. Partly because it was blind (the evaluator had no idea what two cameras were being compared) and partly because of the evaluator's expertise. He does prepress work for fine art reproduction, which has extrememly rigorous demands. It's also extremely specialized, so the degree to which the differences he fixates on apply to my work or yours is open to interpretation. (Also, there's the notable omission about differences in raw processing).

    There's nothing in this test that would tempt me from the 800 to the Hasselblad, but I do believe there are differences which in some circumstances will be substantial.

    I'll add that I hope the medium format industry manages to stay healthy and competetive. I think it's in danger from dslrs now, not because the d800 is as good, but because for many people it is more than good enough, certainly considering the costs. I worry that anything that eats into MF's small market share might compound its already serious problems with economies fo scale. I'd like to see the d800 act as a positive kick in MF's ***, not an injurious one.
    I wonder about all this. Bear with me a bit as I use to many words to explain

    At one time MFD was the proprietary tool of choice for a select few specialized applications in the realm of commerce, and some well healed serious enthusiasts. Both markets had/have very specific needs and were/are willing to pay the premium to meet those needs. At the time, price wasn't a major issue in commerce ... the cost of digital capture was a line-item that replaced the cost of film, processing and scanning for the publication industry that had gone digital ... which on jobs like a major catalog could reach upwards of $5,000 to $7,000. A $12,000 Kodak digital ProBack could be paid for with just a few such jobs. That is exactly how I paid for all my first MF digital systems. 2 years of digital capture fees, and it was free and clear, so I kept upgrading and the work also paid for the upgrades.

    Good enough isn't necessarily part of this group's vocabulary. The need is VERY specific and usually very well defined either by demands or extensive experience ... but usually both. These are the elements that define preference. The linked retoucher article is a good example of this kind of very defined specificity.

    When Kodak introduced that very inventive, and quite stable Proback that severed the tether to a computer, many more enthusiasts took note of both its comparative price to other MFD backs, and its ability to extend the life of their MF film camera systems in the encroaching digital age ... first the much loved and ubiquitous Hassey Vs, then the Contax 645, Mamiya and even the Hasselblad H1. MFD was mobile.

    This began swelling the ranks of discerning enthusiasts using MFD in concert with film, they now had the best of both worlds. Importantly, it introduced them to, or prolonged, the MF aesthetic that Jack references in his post above. It also wormed its way into commerce, and spurred on other back makers to leap-frog one another in an effort to win more advocates.

    Perhaps, just perhaps, nature is now simply taking it course.

    Maybe, just maybe, the MFD makers can return to dealing with the specificity of very defined needs, and stop chasing "the almost as good, is good enough" photographer. There is nothing wrong with that attitude BTW, no one is immune from using a tool that gets the job done with-in the limits of certain demands. Not many pros or enthusiasts exclusively use a 50, 60 or 80 meg MFD system even if they have one.

    IMO, even if all the MFD makers became one maker, and Warren Buffet invested in that collective (which he wouldn't), they couldn't beat Canon/Nikon/Sony at their own game.

    What they can do is move further up-stream into more rarified territory, stop trying to be what they are not, and better exploit what they are, and can be more of. Return to the roots of image quality applied to specific applications that defined them in the first place.

    The thought of a 35mm camera that could challenge my H4D/60, for my specific applications, induces a horse laugh from me. When I think of improving my output for those applications, I don't think of stepping backwards, I think of an IQ180 or Leaf 80 meg on a tech camera, or in my specific case it gives me the "Wants and Gimmes" for a H4D/200 Multi-Shot.

    However, it isn't just a function of megapixels. It is the invention of aspects that make those tools easier to use and more functional as applied to very specific applications ... not ones that appeal to general audiences. Don't dumb down MFD to meet a consensus of different people's needs.

    So, I do not agree that 35mm DSLRs are endangering MFD, they are endangering the direction MFD makers chose when they went after a marginal audience and spent their limited resources on making systems to appeal to a crowd that would jump ship the minute that 35mm became good enough.

    Time to get back on track.

    -Marc
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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    the only rational comparison I can see is between features and ergonomics, maybe in-camera processing.

    other than that, the nikon sensor is like a crop from the hasselblad

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    [B][SIZE="1"]So, I do not agree that 35mm DSLRs are endangering MFD, they are endangering the direction MFD makers chose when they went after a marginal audience and spent their limited resources on making systems to appeal to a crowd that would jump ship the minute that 35mm became good enough.
    I think we are mostly agreeing here.

    My only point on this topic is that since the market for MF digital is already quite small, it takes a relatively small number of photographers forsaking it for (much cheaper) 35mm to significantly effect that market.

    This could conceiveably make the current situation—high prices thanks to poor economies of scale—even worse.

    I don't think this is the only possible outcome, but it's one that I worry about. I say this as someone who's buying a d800, but whose work would actually be best served by an MFD carmera that I can't begin to afford.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    Here is the only really interesting d800 vs. Hasselblad test I've seen. Partly because it was blind (the evaluator had no idea what two cameras were being compared) and partly because of the evaluator's expertise. He does prepress work for fine art reproduction, which has extrememly rigorous demands. It's also extremely specialized, so the degree to which the differences he fixates on apply to my work or yours is open to interpretation. (Also, there's the notable omission about differences in raw processing).
    This test is totally pointless unless your in the painting reproduction business.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    I think we are mostly agreeing here.

    My only point on this topic is that since the market for MF digital is already quite small, it takes a relatively small number of photographers forsaking it for (much cheaper) 35mm to significantly effect that market.

    This could conceiveably make the current situation—high prices thanks to poor economies of scale—even worse.

    I don't think this is the only possible outcome, but it's one that I worry about. I say this as someone who's buying a d800, but whose work would actually be best served by an MFD carmera that I can't begin to afford.
    You can afford a really good medium format camera to add to your D800.

    Add a film camera to your tool kit.

    The combination of what you can do and the aesthetic looks you can get with a high end 35mm DSLR and film camera with trump the look of MFD.

    Also the look that a couple of different MF film cameras can give you.
    It's really affordable to get several MF film cameras. Each with their own look and functionality.

    I use a Fuji gx680 that has all lenses with tilt shift. 50mm to 300mm (I don't have the 500mm)

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    You can afford a really good medium format camera to add to your D800.

    Add a film camera to your tool kit.
    Ha. I've got a 4x5. I used it and nothing else for fifteen years. Ufortunately it's become impractical since I've started working mostly in color. $5 a click, after adding up film and processing.

    Medium format film doesn't interest me much. I did my last project with a borrowed hasselblad. I had fun working with it, but from a technical standpoint the prints don't look as good as what I get from a cheap dslr.

    This is the long version of why I'm excited about the d800.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Wow, ONLY $5 per click?!?! I dream of 4x5" being that inexpensive where I live! Seriously, in New Zealand 4x5" colour neg costs $19.50USD per sheet. Now THAT is crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    Ha. I've got a 4x5. I used it and nothing else for fifteen years. Ufortunately it's become impractical since I've started working mostly in color. $5 a click, after adding up film and processing.

    Medium format film doesn't interest me much. I did my last project with a borrowed hasselblad. I had fun working with it, but from a technical standpoint the prints don't look as good as what I get from a cheap dslr.

    This is the long version of why I'm excited about the d800.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    As someone owning 35mm digital, MF film (Rollei 6080i2) and MFdigital I have the following experience:
    Even though I really like the look of film a lot, and even though I have talked myself several times into using film and scanning I just grab the digital cameras all the time.
    Why? Because a) I have limited time b) I am lazy c) I am curious and like having the results immediatly
    So using film sounds good, but one has to have time and patience to do it.
    I would like to add that scanned files in good quality seem to eat much mich more memory/disk space. And archiving film takes "real" space.
    Still keep my M6 and my 6008 but I do use mainly my M9 and the S2, and occasionally when I want very fast AF the Nikon (not very often).

    Regarding the IQ (advantage?) of medium format digital? For my taste it is clearly visible "better" IQ than 35mm digital. Of course at a very high price. (Even though one can get used MF gear which is not much more expensive than a D800.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    I am happy to see so many people responded to my post although that was a lot to read for me

    anyway
    I think if you dont have a camera yet, and you dont have to have the Hasselblad/Phaseone, the D800E is a great deal packed with superb details and resolution, that part is without any doubt
    for me, my job has nothing to do with photography, or I should say my job has a lot to do with photography but I am not the one shooting the photos
    I work with a lot of photographers on press, so I would say I have picky eyes, but photography is just a hobby for me

    I think its the same thing from the camera system to the lighting system, if you cant or dont want to afford Profoto/Broncolor/Breise, there are all these other alternatives, Elinchrom is close enough for most, and there is always these Chinese bargains
    same goes for the camera, the differences are there, but for the majority, you simply dont need that, even for the pros
    just admit it, we never needed it, we just wanted it

    I think the example of the Camero vs the Ferrari explains exactly that

    while the Nikon D800E is the best 35mm camera, and Elinchrom being the best value for the money lighting, I am happier with the 4 year old Hasselblad and the uncool looking black colored Profoto

    having that said there are times the D800E really shines, well, there are times my OM-D is the best option too, so lets drop the arguments, and be happy with what you have and shoot some pictures
    but when it comes to IQ, bigger sensor clearly is better, if not we should all be shooting with Pentax Q

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Don... what lens did you have on the Nikon?

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by donaldt View Post
    I am happy to see so many people responded to my post although that was a lot to read for me

    anyway
    I think if you dont have a camera yet, and you dont have to have the Hasselblad/Phaseone, the D800E is a great deal packed with superb details and resolution, that part is without any doubt
    for me, my job has nothing to do with photography, or I should say my job has a lot to do with photography but I am not the one shooting the photos
    I work with a lot of photographers on press, so I would say I have picky eyes, but photography is just a hobby for me

    I think its the same thing from the camera system to the lighting system, if you cant or dont want to afford Profoto/Broncolor/Breise, there are all these other alternatives, Elinchrom is close enough for most, and there is always these Chinese bargains
    same goes for the camera, the differences are there, but for the majority, you simply dont need that, even for the pros
    just admit it, we never needed it, we just wanted it

    I think the example of the Camero vs the Ferrari explains exactly that

    while the Nikon D800E is the best 35mm camera, and Elinchrom being the best value for the money lighting, I am happier with the 4 year old Hasselblad and the uncool looking black colored Profoto

    having that said there are times the D800E really shines, well, there are times my OM-D is the best option too, so lets drop the arguments, and be happy with what you have and shoot some pictures
    but when it comes to IQ, bigger sensor clearly is better, if not we should all be shooting with Pentax Q
    To be frank, I'm not putting a lot of credence to this thread. There's only mention of a zoom lens that might have been used, but no prime lenses. Also, there's no photos to compare to make this very general statement. If, as you say, you are not a professional photographer, and are not using standard baselines or techniques, then yes, it's unofficial, but a comparison? Not from this perspective.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    You know what I'd like to see? A natural light headshot from a H3D 39 by a 100mm 2.2 lens shot wide open against a D800E on an 85 1.4G at 1.6

    Come on, someone....I can measure that visually.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    You know what I'd like to see? A natural light headshot from a H3D 39 by a 100mm 2.2 lens shot wide open against a D800E on an 85 1.4G at 1.6

    Come on, someone....I can measure that visually.
    And at f4 or f5.6

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    It really surprises me that the majority of comparison shots are brick walls, buildings or a tree. When we do see the occasional living thing it tends to be under studio light.
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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Exactly, I have no interest in shooting under studio lights.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    You know what I'd like to see? A natural light headshot from a H3D 39 by a 100mm 2.2 lens shot wide open against a D800E on an 85 1.4G at 1.6

    Come on, someone....I can measure that visually.

    but I only have the Zeiss 85 1.4 (which might in fact be better)

    at some point I will do a studio test on 100/2.2 on Hasselblad Vs 85/1.4 on D800E

    in fact I would hope the D800E to be so good or so close I will sell the Hasselblad altogether

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by donaldt View Post
    but I only have the Zeiss 85 1.4 (which might in fact be better)

    at some point I will do a studio test on 100/2.2 on Hasselblad Vs 85/1.4 on D800E

    in fact I would hope the D800E to be so good or so close I will sell the Hasselblad altogether
    An important thing to consider is that with the D800 you can have several or a couple of lenses of the same focal length with very nice but different looks.

    For example lets look at 85mm.

    Nikon 85mm 1.4g .... wide open it has a sort of "touch of fantasy"
    Zeiss 85mm 1.4g .... more of a "realism" look.
    Nikon 85mm PC-E .... perspective control, focus control
    Edge Optic 80mm .... not hi res particularly hi res, but designed for beautiful soft looks and deliberate flare, with a beautiful 12 blade round iris.

    If you compare this range of options compared to the limited options MFD systems give you it is a game changer IMHO.

    Hasselblad only offers the 100mm 2.2 .... lovely lens, but it's the only option.
    Phase One .... Schneider 110mm 2.8 .... Nice but limiter bokeh. Nice wide open, but not a king of bokeh. Stop it down even one stop and the 5 blade iris rears it's head. Stop down further and it gets nasty if you have any out of focus textures or specular highlights.

    If you add to this that you can get all the options with a D800 and still have a bucket of money left over to finance some shooting projects .... well that ever smaller edge in pixel or giant print peeping is of less and less value.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraphael View Post
    I'll add that I hope the medium format industry manages to stay healthy and competetive. I think it's in danger from dslrs now, not because the d800 is as good, but because for many people it is more than good enough, certainly considering the costs. I worry that anything that eats into MF's small market share might compound its already serious problems with economies fo scale. I'd like to see the d800 act as a positive kick in MF's ***, not an injurious one.
    I'd guess the main hope could be that Pentax/Rioch sticks with the 645D, drops the price of the current model to a more competitive level and potentially upgrades to the HD4 50/60 in a new model.

    Hassleblad charging a bit of a prenium for new sensors that then filter down to Pentax a few years latter seems like a setup that could have some legs to it and allow for greater R&D spending.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    My H4D 40 had better files out of the camera over my 5D2/3's. But by the time the images were corrected and enhanced via Aperture and PS the difference was negligible.
    The Hassy was sold (thankfully) before the bottom of MFDB fell recently. I have zero interest in any MF camera (except film MF) right now.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    I don't know about Camaros, but my Subaru Outback is vastly superior to any Ferrari. I ca n fit five people and their gear - a Ferrari... better be five clowns, because nobody else bends that way. I can drive and park my car at a trailhead without much concern - a Ferrari, don't think so. I can haul a Kayak to a put-in - Ferrari, yeah right. I can drive in snow, sleet, mud, sand, gravel, sand, dirt - Ferrari, better get used to walking. I can fold down the back seats, roll out a pad and sleeping bag, and go to sleep - Ferrari, it's gonna be a looong, uncomfortable night. I can carry any photo gear I conceivably need in the back and have it easily accessible - Ferrari, yeah maybe carry a P&S and a bottle of water in the back seat.

    Basically, if I had a Ferrari I'd sell it because it would only take up space in the garage while filling no need or solving any problem. If it got in the port, because those things are pretty wide and our house (Edwardian) has a narrow port since it was retrofitted some 50 years after the house was built.

    But a lot of people also assume I use a bicycle to run errands because I can't afford a car. Or ride a MC because I can't afford a car. In reality, a car for me is a pretty crappy form of everyday transportation. It's a hauling and long-distance transportation tool; it excels at that.

    I'm probably overextending the car analog more than a little too far. A MF camera certainly is more useful than a Ferrari. But regardless... I don't really need one for my photography.

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by FredBGG View Post
    An important thing to consider is that with the D800 you can have several or a couple of lenses of the same focal length with very nice but different looks.

    For example lets look at 85mm.

    Nikon 85mm 1.4g .... wide open it has a sort of "touch of fantasy"
    Zeiss 85mm 1.4g .... more of a "realism" look.
    Nikon 85mm PC-E .... perspective control, focus control
    Edge Optic 80mm .... not hi res particularly hi res, but designed for beautiful soft looks and deliberate flare, with a beautiful 12 blade round iris.

    If you compare this range of options compared to the limited options MFD systems give you it is a game changer IMHO.

    Hasselblad only offers the 100mm 2.2 .... lovely lens, but it's the only option.
    Phase One .... Schneider 110mm 2.8 .... Nice but limiter bokeh. Nice wide open, but not a king of bokeh. Stop it down even one stop and the 5 blade iris rears it's head. Stop down further and it gets nasty if you have any out of focus textures or specular highlights.

    If you add to this that you can get all the options with a D800 and still have a bucket of money left over to finance some shooting projects .... well that ever smaller edge in pixel or giant print peeping is of less and less value.
    Isn't that sort of leaving out some information Fred? Being a FP camera, can't the Phase One DF take a number of different MF lenses also? Same for the Leica S2 and Pentax 645D.

    The H camera, while limited in comparison, also allows full coupled use of all the Zeiss CF/CFi/CFE Zeiss optics for a different look. The 40IF/CFE is quite spectacular, the 100/3.5 CFi and 180/4 CFE are no slouches.

    Plus, one thing you can't do with a 35mm anything is shoot full power high speed sync ... all the Hasselblad lenses (H and Zeiss V-CF/CFi/CFE) @ 1/800 or 1/500 ... and the S2 does 1/1000 with S/CS versions, or 1/800 with the range of H lenses ... and the DF does up to 1/1600 with the LS lenses (1/1500 with AIR radio).

    What I'd like to see is someone like Conrus make a fully E coupled MF adapter for the Contax 645 lenses also.

    -Marc

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    Re: D800E vs Hasselblad unofficial unprofessional comparision

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    I don't know about Camaros, but my Subaru Outback is vastly superior to any Ferrari. I ca n fit five people and their gear - a Ferrari... better be five clowns, because nobody else bends that way. I can drive and park my car at a trailhead without much concern - a Ferrari, don't think so. I can haul a Kayak to a put-in - Ferrari, yeah right. I can drive in snow, sleet, mud, sand, gravel, sand, dirt - Ferrari, better get used to walking. I can fold down the back seats, roll out a pad and sleeping bag, and go to sleep - Ferrari, it's gonna be a looong, uncomfortable night. I can carry any photo gear I conceivably need in the back and have it easily accessible - Ferrari, yeah maybe carry a P&S and a bottle of water in the back seat.

    Basically, if I had a Ferrari I'd sell it because it would only take up space in the garage while filling no need or solving any problem. If it got in the port, because those things are pretty wide and our house (Edwardian) has a narrow port since it was retrofitted some 50 years after the house was built.

    But a lot of people also assume I use a bicycle to run errands because I can't afford a car. Or ride a MC because I can't afford a car. In reality, a car for me is a pretty crappy form of everyday transportation. It's a hauling and long-distance transportation tool; it excels at that.

    I'm probably overextending the car analog more than a little too far. A MF camera certainly is more useful than a Ferrari. But regardless... I don't really need one for my photography.
    Well Jan, a Ferrari is a beauty beyond compare (well Chris Fisker's Aston Martin DB9 is not that bad either, beauty wise), and nowadays they(the Ferraris) are rather functionel too. But not all dreams have to be fulfilled, then they just disappear. So I just sometimes stand half or 1 hour at the racetrack at Marenello, that's enough. Cutted down: Anything more than a VW Polo are in principle luxuries and unnecessary. Cars is often just about getting from A to B. But .....
    And the cameras are just there just to take a silly picture .....
    Good grief

    Thorkil

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