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Thread: leaf shutter with D800

  1. #1
    Steven
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    leaf shutter with D800

    i briefly skimmed the news, from the other day, about a new adapter for leica S2 users to be able to use hassy H-lenses and so gaining much higher syncing speeds.

    i know the S2 and the phase/mamiya bodies were designed to be able to run focal plane and leaf shutters...with an adapter and possible firmware upgrade, would it be theoretically possible to sync at much higher speeds on the D800 (or any DSLR)?

    even if its possible, i know its a looooong shot of ever happening, but it would be neat since thats one of the features of MFD ive always wanted, in order to overpower the sun more easily and at wider apertures...

  2. #2
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    No, no chance in higher shutter at lets say full power with the big strobes, you would need extremely short duration times which do not exist unless you are on very low power and close to subject which you can do with Nikon and Canon flashes but outside a couple feet no you do not have the juice . Now can Nikon build a leaf shutter and get the focal plane shutter out of the way and do a firmware trick. Hard to say, I would say technically they can maybe do it with the body but than they have to build leaf shutter lenses to actually accomplish it. But I think getting the body shutter out of the way fast enough and with a slight delay to open the focal shutter is possible than the leaf shutter runs. That would take a few tricks but I think they could. It would be nice for sure.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  3. #3
    Steven
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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    guy, i thought several of the newer strobes coming out had shorter flash durations, even at higher power levels...

    just out of curiosity, how do the H system and phase one sync so high? is there anything that will sync at 1/1600th with the phase/iq combo or is that just a neat party trick, with not much practical value?

    what about 1/800th?

    i just thought itd be neat to be able to pick up an H-lens or one of the newer leaf lenses for the phase system, throw on the magical adapter, sprinkle in the magic firmware dust (that wont get on your sensor) and start overpowering the sun...ok maybe not mid-day sun, but a boy can dream cant he?!?


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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    Steven, Do you have the camera and Nikon speedlights?

  5. #5
    Steven
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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Steven, Do you have the camera and Nikon speedlights?
    no, not yet. currently im shooing the 1Ds2, but im going to move to the D800 pretty shortly...which is code for when i decide exactly what i want to do for lenses and then i get on a list

    my only real interest in outside strobe work would be more geared towards full length portraits of seniors, but with a more fashion-type look. i dont figure thats the kind of work that speedlight-type lights excel at, though i could be wrong, since ive never worked too much with flash outdoors.

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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    Well, in that case, you should download the camera manual and the manuals for the Nikon speedlights/accessories and things about the creative lighting system (iTTL) and read through them.

    I will give you a hint: Auto FP high speed sync.

    You don't need any stinking leaf shutters.

  7. #7
    Lauriek
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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Well, in that case, you should download the camera manual and the manuals for the Nikon speedlights/accessories and things about the creative lighting system (iTTL) and read through them.

    I will give you a hint: Auto FP high speed sync.

    You don't need any stinking leaf shutters.
    He's talking about overpowering daylight, auto FP high speed sync actually has a 1 stop penalty over native and flash power continues to drop as shutter speed increases.

    Speedlights in sunlight are virtually useless.

    I've used a Phase 1 system in bright Aussie sunlight with a Profoto Pack and overpowered it to the point of looking like dusk at 1/1600

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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    The Nikon CLS is really powerful. Right now I was just playing around, but gave up for tonight, perhaps another day. Having sold off my Nikon Camera and lenses, I have kept my four SB900s. Used in SU4 mode, other flashes fired can trigger them.

    I have been trying out my ST-E3-RT Speedlite transmitter to trigger my two 600EX-RT via radio mode and with HSS over 1/4000sec no problems. The Nikons so far fire-off no problems, and with no weird artifacts that I can see. I hope to test them out bit more thoroughly at a later date, but in context of this thread, you may need to stack a few together to get the power you need to have them in High speed sync. They're really good flashes. Easy to control too!

    High speed sync isn't the best solution to overpower the sun, you just need something like a 1100Ws battery pack system and a ND filter. For static subjects, this is no problem. Although "freezing" (no-blur what-so-ever) fast motion is whole different level of difficulty, which many expensive packs may not have the minimum flash duration/flash power you need depending on how fast the action is!

  9. #9
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    I just bought a whole set of pocket wizards and SB 910 flashes and you can get a higher synce but noticed at about 1/1000 you start losing light. I need to test this more as all I did was try one unit but like to see how it does with 3 sets together .

    I need to try it with my Profoto acute 600r pack as well.
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  10. #10
    Super Duper
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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    Oh, my favorite subject! Lighting.

    If Canon or Nikon could pull this off it would be amazing. It is a key feature of my MFD systems that I can't live without. It would make a higher meg 35mm DSLR more attractive. Problem is that I'd need all the 35mm lens system to do this ... meaning an all new dual shutter camera, and all new FP/CS lenses ... which is unlikely IMO.

    It is more likely that in future we may see the elimination of the shutter altogether which may allow faster flash sync speeds with FP lenses. When, is the big question.

    Leica has finally completed their proprietary Leaf shutter project for the S2, but it was worth the wait as the original spec jumped from 1/500 sync to 1/1000. Previous indications were that the S2 had to get the focal plane shutter out of the way also, so in theory it should be possible for a 35mm DSLR. I do not know if that is true now that they got to 1/1000 sync.

    An adapter would only work if the camera originally was designed as a dual shutter ... like the S2, which is what allowed the adaption of the H Leaf Shutter lenses.

    Presuming that you'd want portable power, you can get to 1/1000 flash duration with the Profoto 600B AIR @ full output, and the Profoto AIR remote does sync speeds up to 1/1500 in fast mode. Problem is, 600w/s usually isn't near enough to kill bright ambient while shooting at f/2.2 let alone f/1.4 or f/1.2 without some heavy duty NDs, and you are still relegated to 1/200 or 1/250th remote speeds with FP cameras ... plus, the B600 has a 2 second recycle @ full power ... and the levels cannot be controlled from the camera.

    That can be mitigated by using two 600Bs @ half power running one Acute dual tube head. Faster recycle, and shorter flash duration for action shots ... but still limited to 600 w/s, no levels control, and 1/250 remote FP speeds.

    In contrast, the Hensel Porty 1200L puts out 1200w/s, recycles in just under 1 second @ full output, full flash duration is around 1/1200 with the Hensel Porty Speed head ... and it has three remote receivers built in ... including Profoto AIR ... and it does 450 full power pops on a single charge compared to 200 with the Profoto.

    BTW, I do have both horses in the race as well as the EL Quatra. However, I do use the 600B at weddings a lot. I gave up on Speed-lights some time ago ... huge waste of time and money trying to make it work (it'd take 6 SB900s arrayed in a single softbox to come close to the 600B alone ... and a dump-truck full of speed-lights to get near the Hensel output, if you could even fit them all in a modifier ) I use a speed-light for fill only.

    Frankly, I cannot wait to get the LS lenses working on the S2 and get out from under the 1/125 sync speed ... the shot below was done in early evening and the background was being blasted by dappled light with the subject in shade ... so I exposed for the background and lit the subject with the 600B @ full power using a Profoto Octa/Gold camera left ... the TTL Leica SF58 on camera with a Graslon Prodigy diffuser @ +2 stops comp for fill (S2 rotated right in portrait orientation to place the flash on the right side opposite the Key light). The 22" print is gorgeous.

    If the scene had been shot earlier with more sun hitting the background, I would have been screwed.

    I love lighting stuff. So many possibilities

    -Marc

  11. #11
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    There was a video on PW site that he shot with a Nikon at 1/8000 at 2.8 outdoors with 3 speed lights and it worked really nice. Made me buy 3 TTI-5 units I think there called and a mini trigger. For me I'm not in the studio often enough to have a full strobe system and mostly everything I do is on location so decided when need I can rent so easily here that it was not having the studio stuff and the rental house has all of Profotos modifiers for great rates so it made sense. One thing nice about the D800 over my MF system too is higher ISO im not seeing anything bad going to ISO 400. Which helps and honestly I'm trying to lighten my load a bunch until I need the big guns but yes I love lighting gear a lot. I may switch though to the Hensel instead of the Profoto battery unit. I'll see how it's working with this setup?

    The thing is the remotes now have finally got the timing higher on syncing so I need to test this out more
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Super Duper
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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    I think you may eventually end up with the Hensel 1200L Guy. It's also good enough for the occasional small studio set-up as long as you aren't shooting macro, and enough power to over-come the sun when faced with blasting ambient ... which you probably see more often than I do BTW, you can now put EL Rotalux mods on the Hensel heads.

    The OP was asking about exactly that issue, bright ambient ... which takes a lot of light at low ISOs not higher ones. Heck, I did a test with the Hensel in bright ambient with the S2, and had to stop down too much to overcome the backgrounds because of the 1/125 shutter speed ... 1/1000 would have allowed 3 stops wider aperture. What was amazing was that by the time you modify the light nicely 1200w/s wasn't a luxury, it was a necessity.

    -Marc

  13. #13
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: leaf shutter with D800

    Yea I try not to modify the flash too much outside since you lose a lot of needed light plus wind its a PITA. Sometimes I use just a diffusion sock for fill and works okay. But I'm thinking of a bigger reflector and some duffision as well. Also I don't like shooting full juice because of recycle time. It's tough out here with this sun here. Yes the Hensel has the juice needed. I'll be in NY next month so my yearly visit to B&H will include the 3 flash aisles. That section of the store gets my jets going. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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