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Thread: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

  1. #101
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    >So then you just shot Tiff all the time

    Shooting TIFF does not make sense. Larger files at lower quality. Can the D800 even still shoot TIFF? I guess Guy ment the converted TIFF.

    >instead of the "small" DNG files at about 42Mb?

    Nikon shoots NEF and not(!) DNG. You could convert to DNG but this only would make sense if you never use different raw converters than ACR/Lightroom.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Uwe, yes sorry, ment NEF. Just shot in Tiff. And with a 107Mb file. But if thats means lower quality, I won't.
    Yes, perhaps just the conversion to Tíff and the 1200 in wide + that ICC profile called sRGB IEC61966-2.1 in C1
    Thorkil

  3. #103
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Don't even understand the cameras support TIFF.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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  4. #104
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Yes my bad I guess I missed the word converted. Shoot in raw NEF 14 bit uncompressed than convert in C1 to 16bit Prophoto color space as a Tif . That is my master file than work from there.

    Just meet a forum member in Jerome shot some images with the 24 1.4 and 200 mm both lenses that I have not shot a lot for forum posting. Post later
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  5. #105
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    >Shoot in raw NEF 14 bit uncompressed

    Do you really think you lose something if you don't compress? Any evidence it is visible?
    Uwe Steinmueller
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  6. #106
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Great question Uwe there is less file but not sure anyone truly knows outside Nikon engineers. Be interesting to hear for sure.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  7. #107
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    They claim it is a lossless compression. If it is data lossless then we are in good shape. But this can also may mean the notion of visually lossless and that can be a can of worms. I would be surprised if any nature shot would suffer but that compression.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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  8. #108
    Super Duper
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yes my bad I guess I missed the word converted. Shoot in raw NEF 14 bit uncompressed than convert in C1 to 16bit Prophoto color space as a Tif . That is my master file than work from there.
    Guy, if I understand you correctly, then I basically follow much the same workflow (except of course use of a diifferent RAW converter).... with regards to converting NEFs into Tiffs (of course after I first adjust the RAw images) I'll do this if I know I'm going to work on a group of files by opening, adjusting and closing them a number of times, which would be destructive to jpegs. From there, depending how may files there are to store or to provide client with, I might make a set of jpegs from the Tiffs.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    It's funny I actually do that myself . I will output all my Tiffs than I may do additional work in Photoshop which I really try to avoid but than I will make my jpegs through a action that I set up on every job to output jpegs for clients. Usually those jpegs are strictly for viewing, PowerPoint and web. I always tell them use the Tifs for the printers.

    Now in C1 with recipes you can create all kinds of files setups so say a master, a PowerPoint size, web and you can change color space and all that. Than the program will process all the recipes at the same time. This saves a lot of time. But here is the rub you never get to Photoshop to do additional work so many times I won't use it this way .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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  10. #110
    Super Duper
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It's funny I actually do that myself . I will output all my Tiffs than I may do additional work in Photoshop which I really try to avoid but than I will make my jpegs through a action that I set up on every job to output jpegs for clients. Usually those jpegs are strictly for viewing, PowerPoint and web. I always tell them use the Tifs for the printers.
    Thats precisely what I do and also tell clients. Now don't tell me mint chocolate chip is your favorite flavor ice cream...LOL!

    Dave (D&A)

  11. #111
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Damn straight bud it is. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Thank you very much for the advices, I have to try later on
    Thorkil

  13. #113
    richard.L
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    They claim it is a lossless compression. If it is data lossless then we are in good shape. But this can also may mean the notion of visually lossless and that can be a can of worms. I would be surprised if any nature shot would suffer but that compression.
    it is DATA lossless ... from the nikon SDK.

  14. #114
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    I surely must be missing something in this discussion . My read of the OP was D800 and LR Color Calibration . Skip to WHAT IS THE PROBLEM IF YOU DON T WANT ANY CONTEXT.

    As I understand it you have 5 steps to get this right :

    1. Get the exposure right . Exposure affects the perception of color.

    2. WB to a neutral mid tone . Different ways to do this ..use a grey card,whibal,passport ..start with AWB,daylight,custom ..good arguments for each . Have found that one usually works great for a particular situation but may not be best for every situation. WB includes temp and tint . Agree completely that WB can totally screw up the perception of color .

    3. Camera calibration ...isn t this unique to Adobe ? I know other raw developers can use ICC profiles etc ...but in this discussion we are talking about LR . In the absence of a camera profile ...you are relying on the raw conversion software “Standard Camera Profile “ .

    (SKIP THIS PART IF YOU DON T CARE ABOUT ALTERNATIVES) Just to close this off. My experience with C1 is that they try to get the raw conversion perfect in one step . They operate more like a custom preset than a camera profile . When I put a developed file from LR next to a C1 file they tend to be similar (obviously depends on a lot of variables but they look finished . ) This can be good or bad depending on the application . But readers need to appreciate that preset tone curves can be helpful but its a design decision for the application team. NX2 seems to be very focused on color accuracy and maximum information and most Nikon users that get into this conclude that its either critical for them or they can better be served by LR,C1 etc. Both of which are much more complete solutions.

    WHATS THE POINT? ...Captures taken with a D800 and processed in LR4 using the Adobe standard camera profile ....seem to produce overly saturated colors and red s in particular are difficult . At a fixed kelvin say 5500 ...files tend toward yellow (not as much as previous Nikon s but the bias is still there ) .

    This is a manufacturer color bias . Nikon favors a warmer rendering . Leica favors neutral (or cooler by comparison) rendering . (As an aside this has been an ongoing debate inside Leica for years ..we talked about this on the factory tour. The DMR was targeted at Kodachrome 64 but the M s had a neutral color pallet . ) Don t let this aspect bog down the discussion ..color isn t perceived consistently in all cultures .

    My opinion and thats all it is ...the goal here is to render a neutral MacBeth Color Chart . No question your eyes can play tricks on you ,monitors aren t always perfect , viewing light affects color . ( separate issue .....please skip the lectures on printing ..this is about getting the file color balanced ...don t add another element to the confusion . There are many uses of a file ). But help me here ...doesn t the MB color chart convert to a numeric al value ...I am sure I am missing some detail but the point is we should be able to agree on the value for a mid tone grey for example .

    SO WHATS THE PROBLEM? Well stated in the OP . When using a color checker to create a custom camera profile (make it easy mid daylight) and applying it to captures taken in the same light ..the results look over saturated and heavy on the RED . We aren t getting a nice neutral rendering to start with. So I would say that either some of us don t know how to create a camera profile or something is amiss in the profile creator or LR4 ? This is the heart of the problem.

    4. If I could get a nice neutral rendering with a simple linear contrast curve . Wow now I can create a preset that matches the subject and lighting . We have this with the S2 ...Adobe creates a somewhat flat but neutral file using Adobe standard . Then we use presets that vary by ISO and we get a very nice standard conversion (wash t this way at all in the beginning). These Presets can easily be shared and do essentially what C1 does in one step .

    5. OK now I can flavor to the specifics .. if I want the skin pink or the sky deep blue ..I can alter the HSL to taste ..if I do it all the time its another preset .

    Sorry about the long post but we aren t getting to an answer to the OP and its pretty important . If camera calibration out of LR does t work well with camera profiles ..then we are left mixing color with a trained eye or giving in to other raw convertors . Or we can just throw up our hands and say “see Nikon color sucks “ . (FYI I know this can be solved by using Nx2 thats what the fashion guys do in many cases ..but when using multiple systems it would be a real benefit to stay in LR).

  15. #115
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    >So I would say that either some of us don t know how to create a camera profile or something is amiss in the profile creator or LR4 ? This is the heart of the problem.

    Yes, but it seems more of a problem with LR4 and Nikon D800 images.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Senior Member danielmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    I'm still in the finding out phase with the D800E but the best tonal separation and color I'm getting so far is within Capture NX2. I'm a C1 user but for some uses that may have to change. NX2's default output is more than a little better in the landscapes/architectural shots I've played with so far, especially the greens. NX2 used to be a glluttonous resource pig and I'm happy to say the latest version flies, even on a 5 year old dual core 2.5GHz laptop (granted with an SSD installed). I spent some time dialing in C1 to try and match NX2 but it's not happening yet, the R,G and B histograms reveal a significantly different default treatment.
    ----------
    Debating starting a new thread but it's all about color so here goes. I'm starting to think C1 has more accurate color and NX2 more pleasing. I did some testing in late day direct sun and early afternoon shade. I'm attaching a comparison that was color managed carefully throughout (Adobe 1998), converted to sRGB for safety now, showing the unedited, default output from both programs.



    There's so much more than NX2 being warmer going on. Contrast is handled better, midtones have more separation. Too bad NX2 sharpening looks like sh*t. I let C1 do that to the .tif output to keep the playing field level.
    Anyone can run a file through a trial version of NX2 (60 days at this point) but if you care to try this one for yourself it's here, at least until the bandwidth runs out.

    I also want to add that I'm not advocating one over the other. All I care about 95% of the time is the fastest route to the most pleasing image. Period.
    Last edited by danielmoore; 8th June 2012 at 23:29. Reason: more info

  17. #117
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Daniel,
    On your d800/e what did you have the camera profile set on since NX2 will apply all those setting from the camera by default, even sharpening d lighting, etc.
    Just curious.
    I will also find some notes on sharpening in NX2, I believe using the hi-pass filter yields better results the USM if I remember correctly.
    Steven
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  18. #118
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Exactly what I am finding C1 is the most neutral and natural looking. That green in NX2 is toasted
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  19. #119
    richard.L
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Exactly what I am finding C1 is the most neutral and natural looking. That green in NX2 is toasted
    not green... the yellow is UP, about 6 cc Hth

  20. #120
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Yes I meant the green foliage is way off.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  21. #121
    richard.L
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    PS,,, by PC, I mean picture control ... they can be set using Nikon free tool...

  22. #122
    richard.L
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    yep, that's what I understood you to me... not masked to physical ... look at yellow... no idea what the actual scene looked like...

  23. #123
    Senior Member danielmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    The camera is set to Adobe, Standard color and D lighting off. I was cautious to keep the variable under control. Though it is in shade the NX2 is closer to reality in this case. Yes the scene is shifted toward yellow but as I mentioned, there's a lot more going on than just the color. I do hope some of you do your own full res comparisons in both converters to see all the differences, it's easy to see only the strongest disparity at this scale, the color. Bottom line, I do a lot of this type of work for contractors, landscape architects and architects and only the latter would potentially prefer the C1 over the NX2 versions. This is Berkeley, CA. It's a weather bubble, never too hot, only rarely too cold, and the greens stay very saturated all year, NX2 might show some seemingly punchy greens but that's the reality here. Think shooting inside a greenhouse on a sunny day.

    In the interim I've passed several more images through both converters to get a better feel and it really is a toss up, scene dependent.

  24. #124
    Senior Member danielmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Guy, I see your toasted and I raise you injected. I might out of self respect desaturate the yellows some in a processed file (these are defaults) but I'm really liking the improved separation in the greens as a result of it. In direct sun, greens are too yellow in C1 IMO, though not as much as with the D700.

  25. #125
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Again my question would be trying the different picture control settings either in camera or NX2 and compare results to C1, and best to shoot a Macbeth Color Chart, and first do a custom WB incamera, shoot the chart, and compare RGB values.
    Coming from a background of being a journeyman scanner operator, way back in the day,
    way before color management, we always worked in CMYK, never RGB, and a term that was always used was "pleasing color" and for most of us today, I think that's what we are looking for unless, like Guy for instance shooting apparel or something where color match is critical, then a custom ICC profile is a must and usually only performs best in a controlled studio situation, not outdoor shooting, as Guy mentioned Color temp changes throughout the day and one would have to keep doing a custom WB, and reshoot the chart.
    My last business I was in for over 10 years was the Fine Art Repro business "Giclee"
    So I lived and died with CM and it had to be perfect to get an "almost" exact match to the original art work I was shooting. Yeah I was using a better light scan back, but the principle is / was the same.
    Bottom line, in the world of pleasing color, which I believe we live in, when is the grass to green, or the sky to blue?

    Steven
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  26. #126
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Steve

    The goal is agreed upon..in the end most photographers want pleasing color . The issue as I am sure you know is how to get there consistently . To be extreme just to be sure I am clear ..if the files WB was way off ...it would be hard to get to pleasing color without an exceptional eye for color .

    You started down the path of recommending a process . In LR (where we started ) you typically work with three distinct adjustments (1)WB (2)calibration to a standard and (3) development presets to a desired “pleasing look” or specific style . Then you fine tune as required .

    The issue specific to the D800E is that even in a controlled environment with perfect WB .....LR doesn t seem to produce a neutral rendering or the color chart . Normally you resolve this by creating a custom profile (Calibration to the standard ). This doesn t seem to be creating a neutral rendering of he color chart as its supposed to.






    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    Again my question would be trying the different picture control settings either in camera or NX2 and compare results to C1, and best to shoot a Macbeth Color Chart, and first do a custom WB incamera, shoot the chart, and compare RGB values.
    Coming from a background of being a journeyman scanner operator, way back in the day,
    way before color management, we always worked in CMYK, never RGB, and a term that was always used was "pleasing color" and for most of us today, I think that's what we are looking for unless, like Guy for instance shooting apparel or something where color match is critical, then a custom ICC profile is a must and usually only performs best in a controlled studio situation, not outdoor shooting, as Guy mentioned Color temp changes throughout the day and one would have to keep doing a custom WB, and reshoot the chart.
    My last business I was in for over 10 years was the Fine Art Repro business "Giclee"
    So I lived and died with CM and it had to be perfect to get an "almost" exact match to the original art work I was shooting. Yeah I was using a better light scan back, but the principle is / was the same.
    Bottom line, in the world of pleasing color, which I believe we live in, when is the grass to green, or the sky to blue?

    Steven

  27. #127
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Roger it just sounds like they did not do a good job of setting up this cam. Not being a LR user but by some of yours and others comments, this is not sounding like a job well done.

    What really has my interest here is even if you profile your cam its still not correct and this is ONLY the E version.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  28. #128
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Roger,
    Since I just got my D800/E the other day and I don't shoot in the studio, meaning a controlled environment, I am really not sure what the problem is with LR4 and the D800/E is and has Guy mentioned above, making a custom profile for your setup using Xrite Color Passport should get you there where you need to be. Or at least very close.
    yet if it's not, then there is for sure a problem with LR4 with there canned profiles they created for a D800/E. Did you try the "Neutral" profile as opposed to standard? yet again I still find it hard to believe that making your own profile would not fix the issue especially in a studio situation where you control everything.
    or..
    Try CNX2 set your picture control to neutral and see if that makes a difference.
    I would think that should do a "faithful" reproduction of the color chart.

    Who knows. Way to many options today and more testing is the only way to get ir right or whatever right is....

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
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  29. #129
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    >making a custom profile for your setup using Xrite Color Passport should get you there where you need to be. Or at least very close.

    'Should' does not help. I tried and it did not help. No idea why as things worked fine in the past with other cameras.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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  30. #130
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    I can get it where I want in Lr but it requires inspection of the image and adjustment of HSL individual colors ...

    Did a side by side with NX2 and first rendering looked like my best custom edited LR . It still has some biases but those can be handled by a preset ..eg. RED is a little yellow and a little saturated ..easy to adjust .

    NX2 does have noticeable improvements in tone separation and rendering of fine detail. ( Didn t Nikon tell us this the D800E should use NX2) .

    Had a friend run a test under studio lights and it came out that the passport was strong verse the standard adobe.

    Then Carolyn shot the Goldens tonight with her D7000(same sensor design) with a std jpg and the color was perfect .

    It will get sorted out .







    Quote Originally Posted by kuau View Post
    Roger,
    Since I just got my D800/E the other day and I don't shoot in the studio, meaning a controlled environment, I am really not sure what the problem is with LR4 and the D800/E is and has Guy mentioned above, making a custom profile for your setup using Xrite Color Passport should get you there where you need to be. Or at least very close.
    yet if it's not, then there is for sure a problem with LR4 with there canned profiles they created for a D800/E. Did you try the "Neutral" profile as opposed to standard? yet again I still find it hard to believe that making your own profile would not fix the issue especially in a studio situation where you control everything.
    or..
    Try CNX2 set your picture control to neutral and see if that makes a difference.
    I would think that should do a "faithful" reproduction of the color chart.

    Who knows. Way to many options today and more testing is the only way to get ir right or whatever right is....

    Steven

  31. #131
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Hmm looks like I better dust off my CNX2 box for now.
    Roger since you mentioned that you are using standard for picture control,
    Are you doing any more capture sharpening in NX2?
    Just wondering.

    Uwe, wow I know you are doing everything right with the passport and no improvement.
    Maybe tomorrow I will try the passport alternative Qp card 203 and there dng profile software. I will report back with my findings
    Steven
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  32. #132
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    >Uwe, wow I know you are doing everything right with the passport and no improvement.

    Not sure but used it for many cameras and no problem so far (except Nikons :-)).
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

  33. #133
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Here is a quick test I did with my D800/E and processed in LR4 and CNX2
    The LR4 version all I set was contrast curve linear, and I did sharpening
    amount:80
    radius: .7
    detail: 60
    masking 29
    Camera Calibration Camera Standard

    The CNX2 version
    All default settings that are tied to picture control "Standard"

    Both output to 16bit tiff ProPhoto RGB
    Opened in CS6, convert to 8 bit, downsize 1300 pixels wides 90 DPI
    Convert Profile to SRGB
    Save as jpg at 80%

    Color is debatable, I think I also have on my D800 the D-Active turned on to normal so the tone curve is a little different in CNX2 because it picks up that setting from the camera, where as LR4 does not do anything.

    Sharpening a whole different story, LR4 sharpening is superior IMHO over NX2, though more research is needed in capture sharpening in NX2, I emailed Jason O'dell he is a big NX2 user to see what he does for his D800

    NX2


    LR4


    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
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  34. #134
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Blue sky still looks like too much yellow
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  35. #135
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    I did not do a custom WB I just had WB set to daylight. I wonder if I did a custom WB that would take care of the yellow. Daylight WB I think is 5500k, maybe to warm.
    Steven Kornreich
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  36. #136
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Maybe I should try Camera Standard too.
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  37. #137
    Senior Member danielmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    I didn't think to check in camera sharpening until Kuau commented on it. It was set for default of 3 or so and setting it to zero made a big improvement. I don't trust NX2 to sharpen my pencil. It sharpening tool invariably makes a mess of things. Whereas C1 does an excellent job with the D800E with no intervention. I take NX2 out from under my desk where it acts as a shim only when changing cameras. This latest version is the same old ever tiresome interface but the output is very respectable and the speed much improved upon. I will continue to try and get C1 in the same ballpark.The enhanced tonal separation is a bear to match without introducing a heavy handed look, may simply be impossible with the tools - more of a profile thing. I'm going to try lightroom as well. As I understand it it's using ACR. The default processing in Photoshop for the image I posted looks colorwise much like NX2, lacks the same tonal separation and did a nice job of blowing out the yellow cauliflower looking things.

    I'm wondering if the difficulty in creating a nice profile with the colorchecker has to do with a new and even wider range of colors being mapped by a mcuh smaller handful and it's just not going to be enough to do the job. Perhaps what we need is a new target for display on a calibrated wide gamut monitor to better match the ever expanding color palette we're being blessed with. I'll even name it for Xrite: Colorchecker Supernatural. Has a nice ring, don't you think?

  38. #138
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Some Days ago Apple has released a new Raw Update and Aperture supports both D800 and D800E now. I think the colors are pretty good. It´s slower than C1 and LR4 though.

    regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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  39. #139
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmoore View Post
    I didn't think to check in camera sharpening until Kuau commented on it. It was set for default of 3 or so and setting it to zero made a big improvement. I don't trust NX2 to sharpen my pencil. It sharpening tool invariably makes a mess of things. Whereas C1 does an excellent job with the D800E with no intervention. I take NX2 out from under my desk where it acts as a shim only when changing cameras. This latest version is the same old ever tiresome interface but the output is very respectable and the speed much improved upon. I will continue to try and get C1 in the same ballpark.The enhanced tonal separation is a bear to match without introducing a heavy handed look, may simply be impossible with the tools - more of a profile thing. I'm going to try lightroom as well. As I understand it it's using ACR. The default processing in Photoshop for the image I posted looks colorwise much like NX2, lacks the same tonal separation and did a nice job of blowing out the yellow cauliflower looking things.

    I'm wondering if the difficulty in creating a nice profile with the colorchecker has to do with a new and even wider range of colors being mapped by a mcuh smaller handful and it's just not going to be enough to do the job. Perhaps what we need is a new target for display on a calibrated wide gamut monitor to better match the ever expanding color palette we're being blessed with. I'll even name it for Xrite: Colorchecker Supernatural. Has a nice ring, don't you think?
    D7000 here rather than D800, things should still hold though.

    I find the hue adjustments under the camera calibration tab are better for getting the initial colour correct if using the packaged profiles - shifting the green primary hue (depending on white balance, I've found images can need anywhere from 10 to 70!) deals with a lot of the issues, and a slight shift away from red too.

  40. #140
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Quote Originally Posted by ausemmao View Post
    D7000 here rather than D800, things should still hold though.

    I find the hue adjustments under the camera calibration tab are better for getting the initial colour correct if using the packaged profiles - shifting the green primary hue (depending on white balance, I've found images can need anywhere from 10 to 70!) deals with a lot of the issues, and a slight shift away from red too.
    But if you start using the camera calibration sliders you are likely better off to use HSL as it gives you more control.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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  41. #141
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    OK keep in mind I use LR almost exclusively and what I know about NX2 I learned yesterday on the Lynda tapes . I have no reference point to C1 other than they seem to produce really good profiles that create a finished product look .

    To understand color bias you need a scene that includes RGB and varies in tones . It also helps if you have skin tones as they pick up even a sight variation in tint . To understand the color bias WB needs to be set for the light you are viewing ....not to an arbitrary Kevin (thats fine for a starting point in color balancing but not as a reference point). Lloyd showed in his tests that cameras vary by more than 10 percent in reported kelvin . (he matched the files and compared the reported kelvin).

    This is why contrary to conventional wisdom ..you can learn from the AWB . (You can always go back and set the temp and tint to daylight or take a reading off a grey card in post ). AWB on my D800E typically gives me a reading of 4600-4800 and tint of 15-20magenta . This reduces the yellow red bias and increases the saturation of the blues .

    If I run a raw NEF file into NX2 with a full spectrum of color and use AWB ......I get almost perfect color with no adjustments . I am using the standard settings in NX2 and I believe the full RGB color space .

    If I take the same file into LR4 and use the adobe std profile .. I have the over saturated yellow red bias . The custom profile based on a color checker looks almost the same . Skin tones are not awful as a slightly warm bias is ok if the exposure on the face is right . (taste dictates). I am sure there is a technical reason for this . There are plenty of ways to work around this but they all seem to compromise the overall accuracy of the reference color chart . To use presets I favor getting a neutral color chart first which is what the std camera calibration is supposed to do. For now we can t fix this we can only adjust for the bias based on individual color perspectives .

    LR combination of Clarity (for mid tone contrast) and sharpening (deconvolution ) is as good as I need . Add in the ability to use local area adjustment brushes to apply the fine tuning .. This is pretty great . I use LLyod s settings to start 50.0.7,70,20 but found with the S2 that having different presets by ISO is better ..you can hammer a ISO200 file but not so much one at ISO1600.

    NX2 has significant complaints about its sharpening algorithms being last generation . They aren t as effective and require a lot more skill to optimize. But NX2 really does produce a more detailed rendering with better tone separation than LR ...I see more depth in the images immediately . In fact a D800E file processed in NX2 is stunning . The question here on sharpening is do you forgo sharpening in Nx2 and only sharpen in LR or PS . (we could do an entire topic on sharpening as we are now dealing with vey large files that are often resampled down for output ..this seems to be best accomplished in stages ..but the LR team says they have this covered in their process).

    We are back to using a “best of breed” approach . Pick the raw conversion software of choice . Process to a TIFF . Then finish with PS,LR . This leads to a whole rehashing of optimum workflow .

  42. #142
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    >If I take the same file into LR4 and use the adobe std profile

    Did you try the Camera Standard profile. It actually is not only colors also the contrast is different in Adobe Standard.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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  43. #143
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    And like I mentioned before I believe that NX2 by default does not apply any tone curve, but if you have D-Lighting turned on in the camera this will affect the tone curve. I confirm this later by reprocessing my image I posted earlier and turn of D-Lighing in NX2 and compare again against my Lr4 version which again by default applies a medium contrast tone curve, hence the reason why I leave it on linear. There is no one tone curve that works fort all images. So I find starting with a linear curve a better place to start with.

    Om regards to a workflow that goes like NX2, sharpening 0 then bring in the 16bit tiff into LR4 or CS5/6 I am not sure this is optimal. I have read in a few different places the advantage of doing capture sharpening in the raw conversion process as opposed to doing it after the fact. Again we could be splitting hairs here and in the final print you would probably never see the difference.

    My journey is to really establish whether NX2 does in fact do a noticeable better job converting D800/E files then does LR4/ACR. For me I cannot make that statement yet.
    Personally I would like to stay with LR4 because I like the print module and soft proofing now. Adobe's version of "Camera Standard" I think is very close in terms of color to NX2, again we are talking about pleasing color and not exact color match.

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
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  44. #144
    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    >again we are talking about pleasing color and not exact color match.

    Of course.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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  45. #145
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    OK so here is what I was talking about.
    I turned off Active D-Lighting in NX2, and here is the result compares to LR4,
    To me they look very similar now again except the sharpening which the LR4 adds some contrast whereas the NX2 looks a tad flatter

    LR4



    New NX2


    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
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  46. #146
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    So my initial analysis is the following,
    In terms of color, Adobe did in fact do a pretty good job in "emulating" Nikons "Camera Standard" at least with this image which I realize is mostly all GREEN lol..
    With Active D light turned off, tonal separation to me is a wash. Again this all has to do with what tone curve you choose, or in my case linear = no tone curve applied.
    I can also use the shadow tool in LR4 to mimic what Active D-Lighting does in NX2.

    So for me, at least for now, maybe I will stick with LR4, and leave NX2 in the box.

    Steven
    Steven Kornreich
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  47. #147
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Steven can i have this raw. Just use yousentit to guy @ get dpi.com
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  48. #148
    Workshop Member kuau's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    Guy I will send it in a few hours
    Steven Kornreich
    www.kuau.com

  49. #149
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    The color issue will work itself out overtime and the tradeoffs in approach have been covered . Can t argue that LR s advantages look to win out over Nx2 ..which is awful to someone that has to learn it coming from LR.

    Not sure why this is occurring but on my low resolution MacBook Pro 1440x 900 ...the two images look close enough and really neither looks that sharp . However on my new iPad 2088x ... they look much better and I can see differences in the detail rendering without looking hard at all. The NX2 shows much more detail everywhere ?

    I realize you have to match the output file size to the intended viewing screen size or the system throws away detail (Correct?) .

  50. #150
    Senior Member danielmoore's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon D800 and LR Color Calibration?

    I think it's even simpler than that. My laptop is a 1920x1200 pixel screen, my desktop is the same. The laptop is 17", the desktop 24". Kuau's two above images look very similar on the desktop and show a dramatic difference on the laptop. Nothing being thrown away, just incapable of being resolved.

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