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Thread: D800/E Review updated

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    D800/E Review updated

    Just this, as it confirms our good choise ,
    and at this side looks like the C1 will win in sharpening, at least in default setting.
    Nikon D800 Review: Digital Photography Review
    Thorkil

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    It wins in color accuracy too but I'm biased toward C1 but I feel I'm right in that conclusion.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    No appreciable advantage in the D800e, in regards to this photograph. With subtle use of sharpening in post, The D800 photo is just as good, but requires no color moire adjustments. IMO, the photo that requires the least amount of post editing, right out of the camera, is the better choice.

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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    No appreciable advantage in the D800e, in regards to this photograph. With subtle use of sharpening in post, The D800 photo is just as good, but requires no color moire adjustments. IMO, the photo that requires the least amount of post editing, right out of the camera, is the better choice.
    My own internal conclusion is the opposite, but that might be because I'm sitting with the E in my hand ..that little extra touch in the 'E is what "normally" drives people go bying Leica's, Phases and Hasselblad's...but this time that extra touch was rather cheap

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    I am hoping to pick up an e later this year if anything just for the comparison.
    -bob

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    I am still firmly an E man, got both and reach for the E all the time. There are plenty of cameras that can be made to emulate the resolution of others with higher levels of sharpening and that sharpening also sharpens the noise. I've said it before and I'll say it again; the benefits are small but so are the costs.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    I cannot remain silent on this issue

    Folks, an ideal OLPF design is just that -- ideal for digital imaging. You "E" zealots are gleaning at best a 2% better resolution file after optimal processing is compared on both. HOWEVER -- and this is probably the biggest thing -- if you cannot process ideally to begin with, then the E will generate on par a superior looking file in many cases. (Not all, but many.) So from a less than optimal processing POV the camera make a lot of sense.

    Carry on,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    LOL put the 300 diffrence into better glass.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I cannot remain silent on this issue

    Folks, an ideal OLPF design is just that -- ideal for digital imaging. You "E" zealots are gleaning at best a 2% better resolution file after optimal processing is compared on both. HOWEVER -- and this is probably the biggest thing -- if you cannot process ideally to begin with, then the E will generate on par a superior looking file in many cases. (Not all, but many.) So from a less than optimal processing POV the camera make a lot of sense.

    Carry on,
    Yes I'm just a lazy guy, and betting from the coach-corner, that Guy will buy an E later this year

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    I would bet on a new laptop thats a sure thing. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    I thought Jack already had one of each?

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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I thought Jack already had one of each?
    Nope. That was my original plan, but after working with files from both cameras -- a friend has an E -- I confirmed for myself that there is no practical detail gain from the E if you process the regular D800 files appropriately. Moreover, both/either version file can be processed to look like the other -- however, since it takes extra effort to do that, and since I often use a pair of bodies in tandem and want the same look from them, I decided to cancel my E order and simply get a second non-E for simplicity.

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Sounds sensible to me... I am constantly importing with the wrong preset (different sharpening) and then having to work out LR's mad variety of ways of syncing, which never do what you think they will!

    And you can paste menu setups from one 800 to another but not between 800s and E's

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    Contributing Editor ustein's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    >variety of ways of syncing, which never do what you think they will!

    You have to think like Lightroom :-)
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

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    locophoto
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Take a look at the newest update to the ever mixed-bag of mayhem, dpreview.com, and see their latest article comparing the D800 to the D800e.

    They make a strong case with visible evidence that the D800e does indeed offer a resolution advantage in context to the content you shoot, and the file format chosen to shoot in. JPEGs out of the D800e are noticeably better. The detail of the link fence is mushy on the D800, but resolved articulately on the D800e, and even with sharpening applied, the D800's mushiness can indeed re-approach D800e level lusciousness, but not quite match the detail difference that a D800e provides.

    The other context that comparison requires is how big will you print?

    If you print 24 x 36 and much larger, then the D800e has the win I think, assuming you shoot subject matter that includes the fine detail that the D800e can capture with really good glass.

    Even without the D800e's advantages, the D800 is still a top-tier competitor killer, and most importantly, a phenomenal tool whose limits don't limit creativity for large print making like say a noisy low megapixel camera would. Either is awesome.

    I'm going D800e for landscapes and the like, but if I was a portrait shooter I'd buy the D800.

    Hope this is a help,

    Locophoto
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I cannot remain silent on this issue

    Folks, an ideal OLPF design is just that -- ideal for digital imaging. You "E" zealots are gleaning at best a 2% better resolution file after optimal processing is compared on both. HOWEVER -- and this is probably the biggest thing -- if you cannot process ideally to begin with, then the E will generate on par a superior looking file in many cases. (Not all, but many.) So from a less than optimal processing POV the camera make a lot of sense.

    Carry on,
    I'm with you Jack, as much as I can be having not yet held either camera. As I said in my "D800 now or wait for E" post, I don't consider myself an expert at post, and want out of camera files to work for me as much as possible. As I have compared samples posted, the E seems to deliver this, very slight, advantage.

    While I've got you all- I am also a big fan of C1. But I also love Raw Developer which just came out with an update that handles 800/800E files. I encourage folks to try it out. It's main disadvantage is lack of a moire' tool, but Brain says his handling of the files will yield very few instances of the problem. His sharpening algorithms are superb, and it's a blazingly fast program (Mac only).....Peter

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Quote Originally Posted by locophoto View Post
    JPEGs out of the D800e are noticeably better.
    Yes, this is one area where the E is probably going to be the better camera for *detail.* You may get more moire with it that is tough to deal with in a jpeg, but you should also get more detail on par if all you shoot is jpegs.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorkil View Post
    My own internal conclusion is the opposite, but that might be because I'm sitting with the E in my hand ..that little extra touch in the 'E is what "normally" drives people go bying Leica's, Phases and Hasselblad's...but this time that extra touch was rather cheap
    Good point!

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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I would bet on a new laptop thats a sure thing. LOL
    I should buy more shares of Apple. iPhone 5 and Apple TV with retinal display is also coming. It will touch $1000 for sure!

    Subrata

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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorkil View Post
    My own internal conclusion is the opposite, but that might be because I'm sitting with the E in my hand ..that little extra touch in the 'E is what "normally" drives people go bying Leica's, Phases and Hasselblad's...but this time that extra touch was rather cheap
    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Good point!
    A. My preference is to spend less time on computer / post processing. If for $300 extra, I get added sharpening / 2% extra resolution, I will spend that money, and for me, it is not worth of saving that when I have to sharpen each image I decide to process.

    B. There is always risk to add noise with extra sharpening of D800, unless I know exactly what I need to do. Everybody can't do or will not do, what Jack can do.

    C. What will happen if you apply that extra sharpening to D800E files as well?

    D. 40MP Phase One DB shows moire too. It is less on 60 - 80 MP MFDB. That doesn't mean that Fashion / Portrait Photographers are not using MFDB.

    E. Need to check whether moire shows up on prints or not. According to Michael Reichmann: "What you see is all about the patterns in the image beating with the pixel grid of your particular monitor."

    Need to test this. I have some images from P45+ where moire appeared on fabrics.

    Subrata

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    A) With the E you also get over-clarity and occasional moire you need to process down

    B) I have seen no noise issues related to sharpening ISO 800 and under files; what I do is mostly in a Photoshop action that I give away to all workshop participants and even sell on the forum if you're not a workshop participant. But you will need a "workflow," and not just a haphazard methodology of pushing sliders to the final effect you want -- if that's you, stick with the E and live with the occasional moire. But don't buy a second non-E, buy a second E so everything looks the same, good or bad.

    C) It will be oversharpened.

    D) Actually moire in the IQ140 is identical to moire in the 160, the 180 is less due to smaller pixel pitch. And yes MFDB fashion shooters have to deal with moire and I have yet to meet one that didn't hate moire showing up. Moreover MOST fashion shooters shoot tethered to an assistant who yells out "MOIRE!" when it happens so the photog can step back or move in to attenuate it. Most fashion file showing moire are trashed and not worked. SO with your E's if you shoot fashion, keep an eye out for it...

    E) Yes it does. Download Rob Galbraith's example image and print it out full native size and look at the no skateboarding sign -- moire'd so bad you cannot read it. But wait, print the same non-E file and you can read that sign. Hmmmm....

    Look, end of day nothing wrong with the D800E -- my point is we're not talking major gains going either side. If you shoot mostly jpeg and don't mind occasional moire, then the E is the better choice because of slightly better resolution in an out of camera jpeg. OTOH if you know how to process raw files and normally print, and sometimes have people wearing nice clothing or fine repeating patterns and details in your architectural images, then I would reco the non-E over the E. If you just shoot family gatherings and miscellaneous street, travel, landscape or nature for your own enjoyment, then frankly it isn't going to matter which camera you choose... The difference between these two cameras is just about same as it would be ordering extra cheese or not on your combination meat-lover's pizza; it's just not that important either way.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Not sure on the comment of hassle in your raw processors for sharpening . Almost every program lets you reset the default and apply a new default. Also you can apply any sharpening or adjustment you want in a preset on import. For instance High ISO shoots I reduce my sharpening so I have a preset if I want to use it on import. All of this is very simple in almost any program. Once you establish a base sharpening to your cam than make it a default or a preset. I know LR,ACR and C1 allow you to do this.

    Btw you want crisper Jpeg images out of camera or whatever you like. Those adjustments are right there in your menu items with various settings to fine tune your images.

    Folks honestly you all are falling directly into Nikons marketing. They are getting 300 extra per E model. As soon as you hear sharper images your doomed. Sure you may even squeeze 5 percent better. Honestly learn how to process effectively that does not mean more time in front of the computer. Frankly I don't make a dime behind the computer so I want as fast as possible too. Just need to do a little testing in raw and find the magic settings for yourself. I may get a E at some point myself just to have it more than need it. I don't need it. But 2 bodies the same maybe useful. I have a D7000 as backup but it's not a D800 so shooting two cams at once is a little tougher if diffrent. My point here buy the E if you want it but don't buy it over Nikon marketing.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: D800/E Review updated

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Moreover, both/either version file can be processed to look like the other -- however, since it takes extra effort to do that,
    I see your point, but I guess I see the E taking less processing to get to what I want with the type of work I shoot. I don't have any real false color/moire issues, because I just don't' shoot anything manmade at all (at least not with this camera). No buildings, no people. So the e delivers me cleaner files right out of the camera with less need to apply additional sharpening ...

    Of course, you can also just crank the e to f/11, which will deliver a nearly identical file to the one shot with the 800 at the optimum aperture, and false color is pretty well gone, and can then be sharpened up just like you must do with the standard one.

    I'll admit I'm a little unique, and for the great majority your points are right in line. We won't be keeping the e in stock - it just isn't the best choice for the majority of shooters out there.
    wayne
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