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Thread: A decent wide for landscapes

  1. #51
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Why not just shoot with hyper focal technique and be done with live view? Wide angle landscapes are not the best subject for live view IMO.

  2. #52
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Hyperfocal doesn't work with distant landscapes and lenses with field curvature. Used it on MF with Schneider 35XL very happily but any glass with FC on the d800 is a pig if you want distant centre and edges sharp. Depending on shape of subject, distance, degree of FC and aperture there may or may not be a focus setting that works but it's unlikely to be found by shooting blind!
    Last edited by tashley; 1st November 2012 at 01:59.

  3. #53
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Good points, I've been using hyper focal with my 58XL and a viewfinder (film) and always achieve good DOF across the frame. Wavy field curvature can be interesting on the D800, but helps if you know the lenses sweet spot. And then it's a matter of placing the most important subject matter in that sharp area and going from there. Perhaps these new designs will put an emphasis on more flatter FC, as sometimes the lens with the crappy MTF, do better on a shoot location.

  4. #54
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    I find with my 28mm F1.8G that the best approach with far landscape is to set the camera to F8 and then to focus using live view at the far left or right of the frame... this pushes the forward-curving plane of focus backwards, bringing the edges into focus but keeping the centre good too. It's boring but it works!

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    To be honest, I've found that most lens anomalies and image softness we can easily see at 100% view with 30, 40, 60 and 80MP cameras rarely shows up as significant enough to be deleterious to even a large print.

    Stated differently, from an academic POV I totally understand. Chasing image perfection is fine and can even be fun, but there is definitely a point where it gets in the way of creating art; and my art improved significantly when I let it go.
    Jack
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  6. #56
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    I came to the conclusion years ago that with digital it is more important that you get the lens focusing at infinity properly and let the DOF cover the closer stuff. The rational is that the very fine details off in infinity like the leaves of the trees on the mountainside will not be in focus enough for the sharpening actions to make them any more in focus.

    I am referring to general big picture landscape photos with normal wides, not superwide shots with driftwood in the foreground or similar shots.

    I haven't done enough shooting with the D800E yet to see if it still applies, but basically if you want something critically in focus, you need to focus on it and not rely on DOF.

  7. #57
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    For me it's just to natural to actually focus a lens. Just part of the whole process. Besides I trust very little in guessing at things. I'm old school and mostly everything I do is usually on manual and also I do not like a lot of automation when shooting. It's a control thing I guess but I never stress over it either, I'm out to create art so I do like to enjoy it. For instance live view right now is fun for me as it is different since it is something I never really had in a cam. I shot in Zion pretty much in live view the whole time. I actually got a kick out of using it. For me I always like new challenges in photography as it keeps me from burning out to often. After 36 years you need to keep yourself fresh and not get into patterns or boredom really sets in. As a Pro that is like death. I also like to nail things down and not second guess myself.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  8. #58
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    I get that - and for 90% of my work it doesn't matter a jot: in fact I often prefer to have softness over much and sometimes all of an image. But hanging on my wall, delivered yesterday, is a 1.5 x 2m Burtynsky and it is sharp edge to edge, as is a 1 x 1.3m shot of my own hanging nearby... for some kinds of image, especially when you are charging a lot and printing very large, extreme resolution is part of the image and is part of the appeal to those willing to pay up! So whilst I am very happy using a variety of optics with varying characteristics, I want, for wide, normal, portrait and tele, lenses that let me make (from the D800) images a metre on the long side and possibly larger. It is do-able but if it doesn't look good enough at 50% on a 100ppi screen, it won't look good enough in print...

  9. #59
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Just an update: I ordered the Zeiss 21mm f2.8 because I thought that given the 28 f1.8G I have already, and that with careful focussing at F8 (focus using live view on the extreme edge of the lens on a far scene element) I can get so close to what I need that with a small local sharpening brush on the side at low level, it's 'good enough', I would go for a notably different focal length. The 21 2.8 has a good if not perfect reputation on the D800 and it's a FOV I like for certain kinds of landscape so, I'll 'suck it and see'.

    Thanks for all the advice and thoughts during the process. I will let you all know how it goes.

    EDIT: Truly this is a New Glass Piñata: I just ordered the Samyang 14 too. I looks too much fun to resist!
    Last edited by tashley; 2nd November 2012 at 12:51.

  10. #60
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by robsteve View Post
    I came to the conclusion years ago that with digital it is more important that you get the lens focusing at infinity properly and let the DOF cover the closer stuff. The rational is that the very fine details off in infinity like the leaves of the trees on the mountainside will not be in focus enough for the sharpening actions to make them any more in focus.

    I am referring to general big picture landscape photos with normal wides, not superwide shots with driftwood in the foreground or similar shots.
    With regards to what you mentioned above, most assume that if you get a lens to focus correctly at or near minimum distance (especially across most of the frame), then focus at longer distances will be covered, since the depth of field is greater at longer distances. It doesn't though always work this way, especially with regards to certain lenses. If a wide angle lens has quite noticable/extreme field curvature, then achieving edge to edge sharpness in a distant tree lined landscape (for example) will often be difficult unless lens is well stopped down. So personally I find it can often be dependent on the optical characteristics of a given lens and trying to compensate/adjust for its characteristics. Sometimes compromises have to be made when shooting certain subjects with regards to these lenses.

    Dave (D&A)

  11. #61
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Pseudo-shift attempt with Samyang 14mm
    Original file


    Processed with C1 7 using lens correction, keystone, rotation, and crop


    -bob

  12. #62
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Looks like fun Bob!

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Ooh, ouch Bob! That reminds me of early days at college when we were first let out with 5x4 view cameras and we all tried to over correct a shot (no offense meant - but I expect you were just having some fun!).

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by woodworth View Post
    Ooh, ouch Bob! That reminds me of early days at college when we were first let out with 5x4 view cameras and we all tried to over correct a shot (no offense meant - but I expect you were just having some fun!).
    oh yeah, Stroebel would have taken my head off if I submitted that as a finished image. Just seeing how far I could push it in C1 alone.
    I was pleased the degree that the distortion could be dialed out without going to PTLens. Although not perfect it is pretty good.
    The keystone tool was just about at the limit.
    The issue with this sort of shot is that geometric distortion caused by eye-point and the need to dial-back shifts.

  15. #65
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Bit of an update.
    The Zeiss 21mm F2.8 arrived today and is pretty good. Micro contrast is lovely, colour throughout most of the frame is fab, and I like the vignetting wide open. The lens isn't quite as amazing as I had hoped but then I am picky. I have had some mildly contradictory results: in distant landscape series, it seems notably soft on the left until F8 and I have repeated this several times, but on mid distance urban scales, say about 100 feet away facades, it seems slightly softer on the right. On both sides, even when stopped down to F8 for optimal sharpness across the frame, there is a slight soft zone just a little of the way in from both sides. I'll do a lot more shooting but it seems, assuming I can bottom out the landscape right hand softness, to be a keeper.

    The Samyang 14mm also arrived but, doh, at some point I must have clicked the wrong option and I got the Canon one. What an idiot. A nikon version is now on the way.

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Bit of an update.
    The Zeiss 21mm F2.8 arrived today and is pretty good.
    I'll do a lot more shooting but it seems, assuming I can bottom out the landscape right hand softness, to be a keeper.

    The Samyang 14mm also arrived.
    Thanks - this is very useful. Do keep us updated on your findings - I am particularly interested in the Samyang.

  17. #67
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    oh yeah, Stroebel would have taken my head off if I submitted that as a finished image.
    Actually, Les would have been supportive in a very dry way--did you ever hear him make a joke in class? Owen Butler on the other hand...
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by markhout View Post
    Thanks - this is very useful. Do keep us updated on your findings - I am particularly interested in the Samyang.
    You may want to read this

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/...yang-14mm.html
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Just a kindly reminder, the distortion at 14mm is ...........Lol....!!!!

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Actually, Les would have been supportive in a very dry way--did you ever hear him make a joke in class? Owen Butler on the other hand...
    All Les had to do was look at you.
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    Thumbs up Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by ckhfrankie View Post
    Just a kindly reminder, the distortion at 14mm is ...........Lol....!!!!
    PT lens plug in
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Want a huge surprise? Get the old 25-50/4 Nikkor out of the closet and give it a workout...you will be amazed...I'm using it with the D600...a great combination.

    Roy Benson

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    I stumbled on this yesterday and while UWAs aren't normally my thing, it was a bit of a eye-opener

    Ultrawide Comparison: Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 15 mm f/2.8 vs. Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 vs. Samyang 14mm f/2.8

  24. #74
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I stumbled on this yesterday and while UWAs aren't normally my thing, it was a bit of a eye-opener

    Ultrawide Comparison: Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 15 mm f/2.8 vs. Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 vs. Samyang 14mm f/2.8
    It is a bit of an eye-popper but it's also IMHO not correct: I have recently demonstrated that understanding the field curvature of the Sammy (and for a lens this wide it's fairly mild) means that you can get significantly better results than the review you reference! To be honest, out of all lenses under 50mm that I have so far tried, it's the easiest one to get sharp across the frame through a deep field. I just reviewed it and concluded that I'd pay two to three times the price for it, it's that good...

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Agree Tim -- like I said earlier, it is the killer bargain for the price!
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  26. #76
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Im glad you guys all listened to me for once. ROTFLMAO. See sometimes it pays to be the guinea pig.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  27. #77
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Yup, I owe you two as much beer as you can drink - or Vodka in Guy's case. Good job you live so far away!

  28. #78
    Senior Member Antonio Chagin's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Tim you have tried so many lenses, by any chance have you tried the Nikon
    28mm 2.8 AI-S on the D800 ??
    I used to have this lens in the film days and I remember it to be very sharp.

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Interesting Tim, I'll check out your review.

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    I've been considering this question as well, though at a lower budget. I'm thinking of getting the Tokina 17-35/4 for D600 when I upgrade, but given the review on the Samyang 14/2.8 posted above, I'm wondering about that now.

    The plan is to use ultra wides almost exclusively for landscape, especially tripod-mounted long exposures.

    If I decided on the Samyang, there's still cash left over for a Nikon 24/2.8D for a normal wide, and the Nikon can use normal filters. The downside here is that the Samyang can't use them. Also, the Tokina was partly chosen due to its distortion control, while the Samyang has awkward distortion.

    Given the planned use, would you recommend a wide angle zoom that can use (uncommon and expensive) filters, or a two-lens setup with a nice small wide that can use normal filters and a large ultrawide that can't, and also has the distortion?

    Thanks for any and all feedback!

  31. #81
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio Chagin View Post
    Tim you have tried so many lenses, by any chance have you tried the Nikon
    28mm 2.8 AI-S on the D800 ??
    I used to have this lens in the film days and I remember it to be very sharp.
    Sorry Antonio, I haven't: so many lenses that performed well on film or even on the 12/18/24mp generation of cameras seem compromised on the D800 and though there are certainly exceptions, I think it a good generalisation that the newer lenses are the better. I am really looking forward to the new generation of Zeiss lenses for example. I also have a review copy of the upcoming Sammy 24mm tilt shift lined up and that will be a very interesting lens to spend time with. But I bet someone here will have tried the 28 F2.8 and can tell us how it does - it would be lovely to discover a 'sleeper'!

  32. #82
    Senior Member Antonio Chagin's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Interesting Tim, when is the Sammy coming out?

  33. #83
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by Pierrard View Post

    If I decided on the Samyang, there's still cash left over for a Nikon 24/2.8D for a normal wide, and the Nikon can use normal filters. The downside here is that the Samyang can't use them. Also, the Tokina was partly chosen due to its distortion control, while the Samyang has awkward distortion.
    That's really the big nit with the 14 Sammy -- you can buy a massive Lee filter holder and rectangular filters to filter it, but that kit will cost you more than the lens itself! It's one huge advantage of the ZF 18 (it takes regular round filters) and why I'm thinking I'll hang onto it -- it's still a superwide I can ND filter for moving water, and moving water is something I regularly shoot in my landscapes.

    Given the planned use, would you recommend a wide angle zoom that can use (uncommon and expensive) filters, or a two-lens setup with a nice small wide that can use normal filters and a large ultrawide that can't, and also has the distortion?
    Problem with the ultrawide zooms are the same filtration issue -- personally I think you are way better off with two ultrawide primes and a wide to normal zoom that covers the 24 end since most of them are also easily filtered.

    My .02 only,
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  34. #84
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio Chagin View Post
    Interesting Tim, when is the Sammy coming out?
    Review copies should hit in December, stores should get them very soon thereafter... And unlike the Nikkor 24mm PCE, you have full individual adjustment of the orientation of movements, so your shifts can combine with tilts in either a 'landscape' way or an 'architectural way...

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Review copies should hit in December, stores should get them very soon thereafter...
    That would be great, but Samyang's comments on their own facebook page suggest that the 24mm T/S launch is postponed until March: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...9814497&type=1

  36. #86
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by markhout View Post
    That would be great, but Samyang's comments on their own facebook page suggest that the 24mm T/S launch is postponed until March: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...9814497&type=1
    I can't see that comment on their page but I might well be missing something.. But I heard yesterday to expect December for review copies so.. We'll just have to wait and see. One thing's for sure: if this lens cuts the mustard, it will sell like hot cakes. Ooh how I love a mixed metaphor.

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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    One thing's for sure: if this lens cuts the mustard, it will sell like hot cakes. Ooh how I love a mixed metaphor.


    If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. - YouTube
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    A decent wide for landscapes


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    (...) so many lenses that performed well on film or even on the 12/18/24mp generation of cameras seem compromised on the D800 and though there are certainly exceptions, I think it a good generalisation that the newer lenses are the better.

    (...) But I bet someone here will have tried the 28 F2.8 and can tell us how it does - it would be lovely to discover a 'sleeper'!

    I finally got the time to snap a couple of trivial test compositions to illustrate the AI-S Nikkor 28mm f/2.8 on the D800E, compared to the modern AF-S 28mm f/1.8 G.
    I'm afraid the old manual focus AI-S lens isn't quite the 'sleeper' we could dream of for D800.
    Anyway, still a decent optic from the film days (though the color rendition is somewhat on the warm side).
    I had no landscape at hand, you will have to do with this 'harborscape'
    It was very windy and cold, so this is just a quick-and-dirty test, focusing on the center only (but at least on tripod).

    I add links to the RAW files so that you can do the post processing to your own taste.
    Here I have just added about 0.5 or 1.0 Exposure adjustment, plus a bit of Sharpening: 40 - 0.8 - 40 - 10
    No other tweaks done in order not to confuse things.
    I deliberately left any chromatic abberration as is, just to illustrate each lens' native character (easily adjusted In Lightroom: >> Lens Correction >> Color >> tick: Remove Chromatic Aberration)
    As usual: please keep any posted results here on the GetDPI forum.


    AI-S Nikkor 28mm f/2.8

    801_3061_AIS_28mm_at_f8.NEF
    click for native sizes (8 - 9 Mb each)


    Nikon D800E • AI-S Nikkor 2.8/28mm • 1/350 sec. at f/8 ISO 100 • Lightroom 4.2



    AF-S Nikkor 28mm f/1.8 G

    801_3065_AFS_G_28mm_at_f8.NEF



    Nikon D800E • AF-S Nikkor 1.8/28mm G • 1/250 sec. at f/8 ISO 100 • Lightroom 4.2



    AI-S Nikkor 28mm f/2.8

    801_3074_AIS_28mm_at_f8.NEF



    Nikon D800E • AI-S Nikkor 2.8/28mm • 1/350 sec. at f/8 ISO 100 • Lightroom 4.2



    AF-S Nikkor 28mm f/1.8 G

    801_3077_AFS_G_28mm_at_f8.NEF



    Nikon D800E • AF-S Nikkor 1.8/28mm G • 1/350 sec. at f/8 ISO 100 • Lightroom 4.2

  39. #89
    Senior Member Antonio Chagin's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Steen thanks for the test.
    I'm seing very small differences at 100% being AIS better at some point and G better in detail all over but just a small difference really.
    www.achdigital.com
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    The elmarit r 28 type 2 (last) is generally considered a good lens.
    I tested it on my usual brickwall to verify resolution and field curvature.
    The first link shows results at F8 focusing straight in the center, in practice at infinity or just an hair less.(full size jpg)

    All sizes | _DSC1521 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    Second link shows results at F8 focusing for corner sharpness-in practice at approx. 5-8 meters.

    All sizes | _DSC1519 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    Resized image.


    _DSC1519 by sergio
    lovisolo
    , on Flickr

    I have the impression that second focus compensated shot is slightly overcorrected.

    Sergio

  41. #91
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    A decent wide for landscapes


    Tim has recently made this excellent Field Review of the Carl Zeiss Distagon 2.8/21mm ZF.
    Tim Ashley Photography | Zeiss 21mm F2.8 ZF2 on D800e: Field Review, Tips 'n' Tricks
    I have now bought a used sample of the 21mm, and I can only confirm Tim's findings e.g. with the field curvature.

    Yesterday I tried out the Zeiss ZF in comparison to my Voigtländer Color-Skopar 3.5/20mm SLII Asph.
    I think it's pretty clear that the Zeiss lens has the edge especially by being a bit more contrasty, still I'm surprised how well the Voigtländer holds up.
    I wasn't really able to focus in Live View partly because of the bright sunlight reflected by the snow and partly because I got tears in my eyes due to the cold and a windy weather.
    One of those occasions where I really missed autofocus.
    But at f/8 and using focus bracketing I was able to get a couple of lucky shots with more or less everything within acceptable DOF, and I just picked the best shot from each lens.
    This is in no way scientific, the sun was now and then breaking through some heavy clouds behind my bag and the light was quickly changing with regards to brightness as well as color.
    This time I removed the lateral color aberration when processing the files, but you can download the RAW files and see for yourselves.
    I also did not add the full amount of EV because with a bit more darkness I find it easier to judge sharpness, but you can just process the RAW files to your own taste.


    The Voigtländer 20mm

    801_3233_Voigtlander_20mm_at_f8.NEF

    click for native size (6.7 Mb)


    Nikon D800E • Voigtländer Color-Skopar 3.5/20mm SLII Aspherical • 1/180 sec. at f/8 ISO 100 • Lightroom 4.3








    The Zeiss 21mm

    801_3212_Zeiss_21mm_ZF_at_f8.NEF

    click for native size (7.2 Mb)


    Nikon D800E • Carl Zeiss Distagon 2.8/21mm ZF • 1/180 sec. at f/8 ISO 100 • Lightroom 4.3
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  42. #92
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Samyang 14 FTW,

    But you already know that.

  43. #93
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    Nice, slightly surreal shot Steen!
    I have a new secret weapon for sharp corner to corner and edge to edge: the RX1 ;-)
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  44. #94
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes



    Samyang 14mm

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    A decent wide for landscapes


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post

    Nice, slightly surreal shot Steen!
    I have a new secret weapon for sharp corner to corner and edge to edge: the RX1 ;-)
    Oh yeah, nice lens the RX1, unfortunately it has a built-in camera.

    So like a wise man said: "The lens will die with the camera"

  46. #96
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    Re: A decent wide for landscapes

    I found this test/comparison of the 28 Elmarit and ZF25/2.8 very interesting:

    Leica 28 v ZF25 ? - FM Forums
    Leica Monochrom, Olympus EM-5, Ricoh GR

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