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Thread: 85/1.4...the debate.

  1. #51
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Lars,

    In my experiences with multiple samples of each, the 105 DC had the edge in shapness accross the frame. These comparative results were as a result on testing with various Nikon 12MP ful frame cameras.

    Dave (D&A)
    I suspected that. While my 135 DC seems to resolve enough wide open at DC 0 setting, it doesn't really impress it terms of microcontrast. Perhaps the design has some residual softness even at neutral setting.

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Hi LArs,

    I explained in detail both here on Getdpi and elsewhere, that there were many 105 DC and 135 DC lenses where "null" or neutral (without any DC effect) wasn't set at at "0" but generally a couple of settings to the negative or positive direction from of "0" (I forgot which direction). At these settings the lens is actually sharpest and a definite difference can be senn vs. setting it at "0". Try a series of shot on a tripod, starting at -2, then -1, 0, +1 and +2, to nail down where the image is sharpest. Don't be surprised if its not at "0". Many of these lenses weren't. Some people send theirs back to Nikon, to be calibrated. Of course some actually like the look of slight defocus applied to their image with this lens, as opposed to shooting at the "null setting".

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 2nd December 2012 at 06:06.

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    IMHO...

    It's pretty clear by the MTF's: While the 1.4G and 1.4D are pretty close on center performance with the G just slightly superior, the 1.4G is far superior on edge and corner performance as compared to the D version. What this means is perhaps that for portraits only, the softer-edged D version may be desirable -- and again I'd argue that you can't beat the 105DC for portraits. However, as an all-around imaging lens with the latest Nikon digital bodies, I don't think it's even a discussion as to which 85/1.4 is the "best" lens; the G wins hands-down.
    Jack,

    Do you mean that the 105DC performs better for portraits when using its DC function wide open or is it better wide open without using the DC compared to the 85/1.4 D?

  4. #54
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Getting back to the original OP's question...
    The 85mm 1.4 G is probably one of Nikon's best designs. It rates pretty high up there in the MTF charts at 5.6 and the OOF areas are quite good too. The AF is fast with the newer nano coated optics, better designed for todays sensors. Take into consideration what you'd get for you 1.4G, used, to a 1.4D new, and if the savings are worth it. Personally, I'd keep the 85mm 1.4g. I sold my 105 DC because of better AF and contrast. For portraits, my next choice would be the 200mm F.2.

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    The 200 f 2 is just the most gorgeous lens. Loved it for portraits.

    I need to rob the bank again and get it again. Maybe next years expense. I miss it too much. Problem is nothing like it in that range.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The 200 f 2 is just the most gorgeous lens. Loved it for portraits.

    I need to rob the bank again and get it again. Maybe next years expense. I miss it too much. Problem is nothing like it in that range.
    +1! Little else needs to be said!

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Truly no joke. I think the absolute best lens they make. I know they have outstanding longer lenses but this lens has a look that can't be matched.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Getting back to the original OP's question...
    The 85mm 1.4 G is probably one of Nikon's best designs. It rates pretty high up there in the MTF charts at 5.6 and the OOF areas are quite good too. The AF is fast with the newer nano coated optics, better designed for todays sensors. Take into consideration what you'd get for you 1.4G, used, to a 1.4D new, and if the savings are worth it. Personally, I'd keep the 85mm 1.4g. I sold my 105 DC because of better AF and contrast. For portraits, my next choice would be the 200mm F.2.
    i was figuring i'd grab the D used, and pocket about $600 all said and done. the new price is ridic. i figured i'd see people's opinions and decide if $600 was worth what i'd be sacrificing. i'm starting to really think it's not. the G really is fantastic. i've just been feeling cheap lately. haha.

    i'd love a 200/2...but that price tag. ayayay!
    --David

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by dmeckert View Post
    i've just been feeling cheap lately.
    Better than feeling poor...

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by dmeckert View Post
    i was figuring i'd grab the D used, and pocket about $600 all said and done. the new price is ridic. i figured i'd see people's opinions and decide if $600 was worth what i'd be sacrificing. i'm starting to really think it's not. the G really is fantastic. i've just been feeling cheap lately. haha.

    i'd love a 200/2...but that price tag. ayayay!
    Me too, on the 200 f/2!

    One man's cheap is another man's thrifty, nothing wrong with that!

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by ymc226 View Post
    Jack,

    Do you mean that the 105DC performs better for portraits when using its DC function wide open or is it better wide open without using the DC compared to the 85/1.4 D?
    The 105DC can produce a look that is almost classic LF portrait when it is used at around f/2.8 and the dc set to around 5.6. sharp but flared highlights, smooth looking skin and lovely OOF areas.
    I am looking for an example I can post here ....
    ok here is one
    Attachment 66258
    Move Along, Nothing to see here.
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 4th December 2012 at 10:07.

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Better than feeling poor...
    true...but that's the next stop on the "i barely have enough money" express.
    --David

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Has anyone compared the 85 1.4G and 1.4D with the 85mm 1.4 Samyang?

    Impressions ??

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Bob,

    nice photograph, but perhaps too dark. How come Stan Rox is criticized for his semi nudes, but not you?

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Bob,

    nice photograph, but perhaps too dark. How come Stan Rox is criticized for his semi nudes, but not you?
    Not sure what you mean but we do have a special section for NSFW images but Bobs looked liked he picked a very carefully posed image to post on the more public thread. Practical terms if everything is covered well, if you know what i mean. Obviously we all have to be careful of this.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Yes, I know, but it's what I think is not covered up in Bob's photo that made me question it. Perhaps if it was in fact, brighter it might end up in the NSFW. Stan Rox seems to get a lot of flak for his images even though i've never seen a lady part in them...just my imagination

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Bobs decision but also i never dealt with any of Stans images posted so Im a little lost on that one. Obviously it all comes down to a judgement call. We are not perfect by any means either. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Bob,

    nice photograph, but perhaps too dark. How come Stan Rox is criticized for his semi nudes, but not you?
    Three stops makes a big difference LOL
    Anyway, on the nudity issue, I use a couple definitions.
    Would the image be the sort that could be on a magazine cover and displayed openly at a Logan Airport news stand?
    and if it does not contains nudity as defined in Massachusetts General Laws Chapter 272, Section 31

    '“Nudity”, uncovered or less than opaquely covered human genitals, pubic areas, the human female breast below a point immediately above the top of the areola, or the covered male genitals in a discernibly turgid state. For purposes of this definition, a female breast is considered uncovered if the nipple or areola only are covered.'
    Then it is permissible.
    That is only since you asked
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 4th December 2012 at 10:45.

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Truly no joke. I think the absolute best lens they make. I know they have outstanding longer lenses but this lens has a look that can't be matched.
    Why not consider the Leica 180/2 again, rather than the Nikkor 200/2 VR?! About the same price, and much nicer in the hand. Very similar image quality. I had both at the same time, briefly, and ended up selling the Nikkor due to the better form factor of the Leica.

    Guy, happy birthday! Got anything planned? What are you shooting these days?
    Carsten - Website

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    On this lens I need the AF for runway stuff perfect focal length. Now travel stuff than a diffrent case altogether. This is a lens I just may rent next month to do a show.

    Thanks yes born 1956 and 56. I'm playing golf today. LOL

    Shooting the D800e and a D7000 backup
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    If the weather was golfable here today, I would be out shooting Instead I am at home getting todo items crossed off. Sigh.

    I have been out of the loop for a while, what happened with the Mamiya? Are you happy with the D800e? How do you get good skin tones from it?
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Had to sell it and the Nikon is pretty good for now. Im using C1 and does a nice job on skin tones. Just a little more work in post
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    I'll have to try C1... I am using LR4 for my D800, and most of the time I am happy with the colours, but for skin tones it is hit and miss. Sometimes there is a... greyness... a deadness which I can't get rid of.

    Back on topic, the 85/1.4D is a lens I have wanted to try for a very long time. I recently bought the ZF.2 85/1.4, so it'll have to wait for now, but I could imagine owning both, as I own multiple 50s.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Today I bought a new 85mm f 1.8 G lens. I did the shoot with that on my D800E and I am very happy to see the performance. Great details and I felt it is much better than my 105mm F2.8 macro VR for portrat shoots. I did not do the direct comparison. I will be able to do that in near future.

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Bonjour à tous,
    A few days ago i became a traitor to Leica.
    I bought a D800E and the Nikkor G 85mm f1.4 and worse, i am quite happy with it.
    Very good lens, a lot of details even wide open and volumes well rendered.
    I am still not completely happy with the colours but it is probably me and post treatment.
    Need now a 28mm/35mm wide in the same league.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    I have just been moving towards Capture One 7 from Lightroom. One thing that struck me immediately is the difference in color rendering. LR has the tendency to lean more to reds which is not good for skintones most of the time. C1 renders the D800 files much nicer!

    Big effort moving a 100K image archive into C1, it takes ages to render all the previews

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Yes, I know, but it's what I think is not covered up in Bob's photo that made me question it. Perhaps if it was in fact, brighter it might end up in the NSFW. Stan Rox seems to get a lot of flak for his images even though i've never seen a lady part in them...just my imagination
    Funny enough to read my name in a thread about a lens I don't own or plan to buy. And very sad I did not see the photo mentioned

    However, there was just one tiny little photo where there have been some kind of ... bewilderment. At least to my feelings - maybe there's a big of (hopefully NOT ).

    The "Artful images" section is unfortunately very poorly attended (at least what I see) and even worse updated with new pics -
    landscapes vs. girls: 100:1

    S.
    stanROX.com

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    I have just been moving towards Capture One 7 from Lightroom. One thing that struck me immediately is the difference in color rendering. LR has the tendency to lean more to reds which is not good for skintones most of the time. C1 renders the D800 files much nicer!

    Big effort moving a 100K image archive into C1, it takes ages to render all the previews
    Unfortunately, C1 does not support Hasselblad. Not an option.

    Btw. my photos are H4D-Files, rendered in LR. Is it the combination of Cam & Software that makes the problem ?

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Yes, unfortunate. I use HB as well. I still use LR as main archiving software. I use Phocus for rendering HB files (color is much better in Phocus compared to HB)

    So for now I use:

    Lightroom: Main archiving software
    Phocus: Processing HB files
    C1: Processing my D700/D800 files

    Yes, the combination of Cam & software is definitely causing the issues (even though the HB files seem to get too much red in the skintones too with LR). I am sure with the right effort in profiling I will get LR much closer to what I like but C1 (and Phocus) are much easier and the files appear much nicer on all levels (but mostly color).

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustbak View Post
    I have just been moving towards Capture One 7 from Lightroom. One thing that struck me immediately is the difference in color rendering. LR has the tendency to lean more to reds which is not good for skintones most of the time. C1 renders the D800 files much nicer!

    Big effort moving a 100K image archive into C1, it takes ages to render all the previews
    Thank you for the tip, i tried and like it.

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    Senior Member Jason Muelver's Avatar
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Been thinking a move in the opposite direction.

    I mainly do weddings, and didn't have enough room in hotels to keep my 105DC (which I LOVED), and picked up a 1.4G.

    I'm using an 85 a lot now, but the flare is horrific. Like an ugly haze, not a sweet look that comes from the 16-35.

    Someone mentioned good flare resistance with the G. Going to pick one up and if its a keeper, sell the D.
    http://jasonedwardphoto.com http://jasonmuelver.tumblr.com
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    The 1.4G obviously is the best performer but not by much compared to the 1.4D. The D actually focusing a little faster. The G has better colors and contrast but all that can be added in post. I honestly don't it's worth twice the price.

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Muelver View Post
    Someone mentioned good flare resistance with the G. Going to pick one up and if its a keeper, sell the D.
    not a comparison between 85s, but still shows what the newest designs and nano coating can do. the one with flare is from the nikon 28-70/2.8, from a relatively similar position and FL. nothing done in LR except b&w.

    --David

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    The Sigma 85mm F1.4 @ F2, no sharpening on the full sized sample, on a D800E



    This is Nevado, my wife's Spanish purebred young colt, in case you are interested.

    The Sigma lens is a viable alternative
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  35. #85
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Here's a shot with the 1,4 85G @F2
    I like the lens so far
    Last edited by Y Sol; 16th November 2013 at 14:17.
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    I've got the SIGMA 84 f1.4, the Nikkor 1.4 G and now the 1.8G.

    At the end, objectively, I kept the the Nikkor AF-S 85mm f/1.8G because :

    ¤ It cost a lot less (by selling the two 1.4, I managed to have a large stock of epson ink and Hahnemühle paper)

    ¤ It weight a lot less.

    ¤ The performances are absolutely good for any kind of artistic or commercial work, especially for the price (for me this is the normal price of a truly excellent 85mm).

    That said, the ones who have the 1.4 Nikkor or Sigma do not have to worry at all, both are superior optically speaking. But the "warm" rendering of the 1.4 family is soooo reproducible in PP... For someone who need to buy a 85 in Nikon mount nowadays, he should go for the 1.8G because it is the best bang for the buck, weather sealed, fast af, very well build. At an artistic level, he should go for the Zeiss Zf.2 because (this is my experience) the Zeiss is superior in rendering to both Nikkor and Sigma.



    Speaking about the DC series, I think I will buy one soon (first I need more MF stuff) and My choice will go on the 135 DC. I already have the 180 f2.8 ED and... damn... this is a veryyy gooood lens, especially for portrait. Not even close to the 200/2 but... it have his own signature and character.

    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Nikon 85mm 1.8 G. This is my new acquisition and I'm so happy with it.

    This is a 100% view converted in C1-7. F/3.5

    Last edited by Antonio Chagin; 4th March 2013 at 04:22.

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    85/1.4 ... the debate


    I'm all in for illustrations in a lens debate

    I'm aware that I have already shown this one elsewhere, but I think it illustrates quite well that the f/1.4 G Nikkor is no dog either


    ©lick for actual pixels


    © • Nikon D800E • AF-S Nikkor 1.4/85mm G • 1/125 sec. at f/5.6 ISO 100 • Lightroom 4.3
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  39. #89
    Senior Member Antonio Chagin's Avatar
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Steen, your dog is nice and sharp..!!

  40. #90
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Antonio-
    that's a great photo because it shows the lack of CA, and great OOF, in what might be considered challenging light.

    Here's a recent publicity shot of a young actress using the 85mm 1.4G. This is one of the best lenses I've ever used.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 6th March 2013 at 05:37.

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    85/1.4 ... the debate


    thanks, Antonio

    and I can only second what Johnny says, it's a fabulous optic

    (at least I'm impressed by my own copy of the lens - as usual with regards to photo gear, sample variation is a nasty variable)
    Last edited by Steen; 4th March 2013 at 09:58.

  42. #92
    Senior Member Antonio Chagin's Avatar
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Thanks Johnny, I'm sure the 85mm 1.4G it's, for what I have seen here, a superb lens, the 9 blades makes it a step better than the 1.8 in terms of defocus bokeh.
    Steen I remember an image you posted in NEF of the London Eye. That was amazingly sharp.
    Two things these lenses share: First is the nano coating which makes them very flare resistant and Second is the sharpness.
    Dave's comparison images is one example of this flare resistance. I experience the same when compare de 45-85mm Pentax 645 FA against the Nikon 85mm 1.8 G.

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    85/1.4 ... the debate


    Ahh yes, Antonio, I recall that RAW file link, and it's still downloadable,

    it's post # 24 in this thread http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/39...tml#post442100

    just for those who might want to download and play with an 85mm NEF file shot at f/5.6 - in order to judge for themselves.

  44. #94
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan ROX View Post

    However, there was just one tiny little photo where there have been some kind of ... bewilderment. At least to my feelings - maybe there's a big of (hopefully NOT ).

    The "Artful images" section is unfortunately very poorly attended (at least what I see) and even worse updated with new pics -
    landscapes vs. girls: 100:1

    S.
    stanROX.com
    Stan,

    You'd be surprised how well "attended" your (and Bob's) artful nudes and semi-nudes are -- the difference is they're not as commonly replied to with compliments as most landscapes are ;-)

    Oh, and I just bought a great copy of the 85.1,4G -- didn't really need it, but wanted it LOLOL!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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  45. #95
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    update.

    just picked up the 50 and 85 Gs via the forums...a buddy was looking for a 50 for his newly switched to d600. what better opportunity than to sell the old one and upgrade to the new one, especially when...blah blah blah...justifying new toys...etc. lol

    anywho...this means the 85/1.8G will be here next week. i don't necessarily have high hopes that it will sufficiently replace the 1.4G...but, maybe it's close enough...i like $1000 in my pocket (trying to pare down photography holdings...i'm more interested in having LASIK, going on vacation, and sprucing up my house...and large format film. lol).

    so watch out for real world test shots in the coming weeks. should be fun to try the 85s out showdown style.
    --David
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  46. #96
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    after a few very informal shots this evening and yesterday afternoon, i have a few thoughts on the 85 1.4/1.8 comparison.

    the 85 1.8 seems to be noticeably a touch sharper at the larger apertures. the vignetting at 1.8 on the 1.8 is astounding...covering 3/4 of the frame and causing it to seem quite darker than it should. worse than the 1.4 for sure. bokeh goes to the 1.4, no question, but the 1.8 is a vast improvement over its predecessor, and has a charm of its own. focus fall-off of the 1.4 is untouchable, and it's why i love that lens so much.

    a few samples. d600 at 1600 ISO under low wattage lights that are on their last legs, and then kicked up a half stop in LR. lol.













    in order, should be: 1.8 @ 1.8, 1.4 @ 1.8, 1.4 @ 1.4. will double check though.
    Last edited by dmeckert; 4th April 2013 at 11:10.
    --David

  47. #97
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    I recently added the 85/1.4G to my lens stable. I am more impressed with it every time I use it. To compare it and the 105DC can be an exercise in minutia -- both wide open, DC zeroed, they are both laser sharp centrally with wonderful oof renderings. I should mention the 85 at f1.4 and 105 at f2 have virtually identical DoF's at a given subject distance.

    The 85/1.4G has more (I hesitate to use the word better, because it may not be) micro-contrast, but then this tends to move away from the more classic LF look I get out of the 105DC. The 85 also has slightly better global contrast, though not hugely so.

    Both are 10's on my favorite "look lenses" chart, and yet render differently enough I find reason to happily keep and carry both depending on the job at hand. That said, the 105DC will probably now be relegated primarily to people or specific product/still-life shots where its tunable oof is handy, while the 85 will see more use across all spectrums of my photography.

    If I could only own one, it would be a tougher call -- too many traits about each I like. In the end, I would have to say that for *most* people, the 85/1.4 is going to be the more useful lens -- it is simpler to use, focuses faster and it's a focal I think is more generally versatile for prime lens shooting.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  48. #98
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Nano coating probably has some effect here with wide open contrast and micro detail wide open
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    Are there any direct image comparisons between the D and G lenses? I've tried to find some on the internet, but all I've really found were bokeh comparisons. There are two things I really hate about the D version. The first is lack of AF-S, which is more annoying when you know the focus is not spot on. The second is the yellow tint that lens had. I have the D version, but I ended up using my 24-70 most of the time because of those two nitpicking points. When I did use the 85/1.4D, I always switched it to manual focus mode. I'd love to see image comparisons between the two, with emphasis on sharpness across the entire frame.

  50. #100
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    Re: 85/1.4...the debate.

    finally getting to shoot a bit.

    in addition, i picked up a dirt cheap d800 (which is a whole other conundrum, but i digress).

    i think i may be fine with the 85/1.8G when it comes down to it. more testing to do, but the dof falloff is pretty darn nice.

    this is my friend Zoë. we were doing a few shots related to her blog, and i also used her to tweak my AF adjustment and grab a few test shots.



    and at 100%

    --David

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