Antonio Chagin
Member
Guy, would you say for a photograph taken at f/8 this difference in character (1.4 - 1.8 g's ) still show?
The GetDPI Photography Forum
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
85/1.4...the debate.
- Thread starter dmeckert
- Start date
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
No it gets a lot closer , it's really in the 1.4 to like f4 area you will see much nicer bokeh and character to the lens. Now lens aberrations will take part in this as well and also aperture blades. For character or nice bokeh you want to try and get a 9 blade aperture ring. The more the merrier here for a smoother foreground and background blur for bokeh. One other thing the 1.4 usually will have softer corners in the wide apertures as there is more lens curvature there as the 1.8 lenses will tend to be flatter lens curvature. This is typical but exceptions here as well. If you read the MTF charts you will see where the corners will lag behind more with the 1.4 lens. These are general characteristics to almost every lens brand . Faster lenses have nicer bokeh and more corner softness and more vignetting than slower lenses. Fast glass is tough to build too so they usually have more lens aberrations but some pretty expensive glass you will see they battle that a little better and why costs are higher on some of those. Also the 1.8 build quality maybe less than the 1.4 due to shaving costs and offering them as lower cost to consumers. Now it's not that the 1.8 lenses are bad in anyway just designed different for let's say more hobbyists needs than for Pro level needs. The 1.8 or slower lenses are typically a lot easier to design and build with less special glass in them compared to the fast glass which takes more care to design.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Here lets look at the MTF charts here on the 1.8 the lens has a little better corners in the very wide apertures but once we hit like F4 on the 1.4 lens it smokes the 1.8 Better glass and lens curvature is less a issue. Now this usually will affect wider glass than a 85mm but it still is there slightly. Lens aberrations is whats holding back the 1.4 until it stops down a little than it is much better as it gets past that. Look at the F4 numbers now between the two lenses. Much better on the 1.4 glass. But wide open the 1.8 is slightly better. Now in all honesty the more lens aberrations the nicer the look sometimes especially with people. The Leica Summiluxes which are 1.4 have a lot of character wide open because it has lens aberrations but very nice when stopped down as it gets past the aberrations.
You can read a lot about these lenses on photo zone.com and you can compare the two lenses in all the details. I just touched on some of it
You can read a lot about these lenses on photo zone.com and you can compare the two lenses in all the details. I just touched on some of it
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Now the question at F8 according to the MTF charts the 1.4 is sharper but the character will still look pretty much the same. Character is usually in the wider apertures but lets not forget color tonal range and things like this which this is something we really need to test side by side.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Now look at the bokeh here . The 1.4 clearly is much nicer and smoother.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
To me the 1.4 is clearly the people, model, fashion, wedding lens of choice but comes at a cost plus size and weight. Again all this will come down to what you are after and how much you want to spend and also deal with size and weight. Myself i always go after the best glass I can at any cost. Yes I am a lens whore. LOL
Now its fun to read these charts and make comparisons based on scientific study but its somewhat meaningless until you go shoot these lenses and see what YOU like. Really end of day that is the most important part. I base everything on how it LOOKS not how it measures up in numbers.
Now its fun to read these charts and make comparisons based on scientific study but its somewhat meaningless until you go shoot these lenses and see what YOU like. Really end of day that is the most important part. I base everything on how it LOOKS not how it measures up in numbers.
If I might interject a few personal comments from shooting with both 85mm G lenses. Bokeh differences can be more or less pronouced between the two depending on the lighting and/or subject matter. So in some situations, at comparable f stops, the degree of differnce varies greatly. The same can be said when comparing sharpness across the frame at say f5.6, where max. sharpness is nearly obtained. Differerences of resolution is noticable between these two lenses especially if examining files at 100%, but whether these differences will be important/noticable or not, is very much subject dependent and how the files will be used with regards to output.
Guy is very much right...generally the faster versions of similar lenses have more character when shot between say f1.4 and f4. A little off topic, but I'm reminded of the Pentax SLR AF lens "FA 85mm f1.4" This lens when shot between f1.4 and f4 was mediocre at best (and often times much worse) when shooting distance objects like landscapes. in these situations, it looked like a $99.00 lens...but oh how that lens sang when shooting portraits and not only its stunning bokeh. It was optimized for close and mid-distant subjects and both resolving power and the way it drew was beyond reproach for these applications. beyond f4 and it was as sharp as one would hope for at all distances. Later it was learned (but never publicized) that the optical designers at Pentax specifically designed the lens to have these properties. In contrast, most all Pentax 85mm f1.8 lenses were simply very sharp general purpose lenses from the get-go (f1.8).
The Nikon G lenses are similar to this analogy in many ways and mirror much fo what Guy expressed.
Dave (D&A)
Guy is very much right...generally the faster versions of similar lenses have more character when shot between say f1.4 and f4. A little off topic, but I'm reminded of the Pentax SLR AF lens "FA 85mm f1.4" This lens when shot between f1.4 and f4 was mediocre at best (and often times much worse) when shooting distance objects like landscapes. in these situations, it looked like a $99.00 lens...but oh how that lens sang when shooting portraits and not only its stunning bokeh. It was optimized for close and mid-distant subjects and both resolving power and the way it drew was beyond reproach for these applications. beyond f4 and it was as sharp as one would hope for at all distances. Later it was learned (but never publicized) that the optical designers at Pentax specifically designed the lens to have these properties. In contrast, most all Pentax 85mm f1.8 lenses were simply very sharp general purpose lenses from the get-go (f1.8).
The Nikon G lenses are similar to this analogy in many ways and mirror much fo what Guy expressed.
Dave (D&A)
Last edited:
Antonio Chagin
Member
Well Guy and Dave and just finding out the differences in blades numbers between these lenses and the fact that the 1.4 g has 9 rounded blades which of course makes nicer Bokeh.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
LOL . I was waiting for you to say that. ROTFLMAO.
Me too...but you know he's right! In fact, before the new 85 f1.4G came along, I had much prefered the 105DC for portrait work than the 85mm f1.4D
Dave (D&A)
K
Khatsalano
Guest
I agree with Jack's 105 dc statement. If they come out with a g model I will grab it if cash is in pocket at time. For the price I find passing up the 85mm F1.8g difficult after testing it in store the other day. As others have stated focus is accurate and the sharpness was a happy surprise after fully processing in LR4. I shot my test at 1.8 using store personnel. No doubt camera store personnel are the most photographed people in the world. Perhaps a thread (having fun with store personnel) should be created.
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
If they come out with a G model, it will be at least twice as expensive as the current model. I suspect that even used versions of the current model will go up in price then. I agree with Jack too; this is a lens one should just grab. It's very good, by any definition of "good".
K
Khatsalano
Guest
Sorry, my statement was not well made. I do have the 105 dc which prompted me to agree with Jack. Unfortunately you are right, a new g version would probably be twice the price in which case I would stay with the old model. For outdoor portraits I also love the Nikon 180 f2.8 which works well for me on the D800 as does the 105 mm DC. No doubt I will also obtain the 85 F1.8 , my test shots with the 85 F1.8 were also done with the D800.
heavens! quite the discussion broke out there! lol
looks like i'm not gonna be saving that money after all. barring actually trying out a 1.4D and liking it tons. i guess it's just too hard to mess with near perfection.
speaking of "lenses, which if they came out in a new G version, i'd buy immediately"...i'm waiting for a 135/1.8. can haz plz? that would be the end of the 85, no question.
looks like i'm not gonna be saving that money after all. barring actually trying out a 1.4D and liking it tons. i guess it's just too hard to mess with near perfection.
speaking of "lenses, which if they came out in a new G version, i'd buy immediately"...i'm waiting for a 135/1.8. can haz plz? that would be the end of the 85, no question.
I owned both the 135DC as well as the 105DC before they got stolen several years ago. I have missed these lenses ever since however never bought them again. When Nikon brings out new versions I surely would love to have the DC possibility again. This is a much underappreciated feature of these lenses IMO. New versions without DC would make them maybe sharp but otherwise quite ordinary lenses.
BTW I also owned the 85/1.4D and now the G version. I find the G better in most aspects, certainly contrast and focussing. In color rendition I find the G lenses 'thinner' if that qualification makes sense.
BTW I also owned the 85/1.4D and now the G version. I find the G better in most aspects, certainly contrast and focussing. In color rendition I find the G lenses 'thinner' if that qualification makes sense.
Last edited:
IMHO...
It's pretty clear by the MTF's: While the 1.4G and 1.4D are pretty close on center performance with the G just slightly superior, the 1.4G is far superior on edge and corner performance as compared to the D version. What this means is perhaps that for portraits only, the softer-edged D version may be desirable -- and again I'd argue that you can't beat the 105DC for portraits. However, as an all-around imaging lens with the latest Nikon digital bodies, I don't think it's even a discussion as to which 85/1.4 is the "best" lens; the G wins hands-down.
It's pretty clear by the MTF's: While the 1.4G and 1.4D are pretty close on center performance with the G just slightly superior, the 1.4G is far superior on edge and corner performance as compared to the D version. What this means is perhaps that for portraits only, the softer-edged D version may be desirable -- and again I'd argue that you can't beat the 105DC for portraits. However, as an all-around imaging lens with the latest Nikon digital bodies, I don't think it's even a discussion as to which 85/1.4 is the "best" lens; the G wins hands-down.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Like to see a test between my 85 against any 105dc you can muster up. Now the 105 may have character because of the non nano coatings and aberrations but sharp to sharp world not sure you can touch the G 85 1.4 and even the Zeiss 100 macro , rated one of the best on the planet does not have the corner performance like the 85. Not saying the 105 will not do excellent portraits since that is the design of it but in the pixel peeping world of landscape I don't think it would hold up to the 85. Honestly for portraits I shoot much longer anyway but that's me. I lay down the hammer prove me wrong. LOL
Hope you know I'm joking here. But my 85 is killer sharp , not sure the lens gods blessed this damn thing or not but its as good as my now sold(crying) 200 F2. It's that good
Hope you know I'm joking here. But my 85 is killer sharp , not sure the lens gods blessed this damn thing or not but its as good as my now sold(crying) 200 F2. It's that good
I was not trying to make this a 105DC v 85/1.4G debate. My comment was that while the 85/1.4D may be more desirable for portraits over the 85/1.4G, the 105DC being tunable is (IMHO) the better (best?) portrait lens.
However since you brought it up, I also believe the 105DC zeroed will easily outperform the 85/1.4D corner to corner. (I know the G is excellent, but then so is the 105DC when zeroed -- though I suspect at f5.6, the 85/1.4G will edge out the 105DC at the edges at normal distances.) The next thing worth noting is the 105DC performs outstandingly well at infinity -- I have read that neither 85/1.4 fares very well at distance. We need to compare them next time we're out together and do a head-to-head shootout across the board. Or better yet, let's have Bob do it since he owns both lenses
However since you brought it up, I also believe the 105DC zeroed will easily outperform the 85/1.4D corner to corner. (I know the G is excellent, but then so is the 105DC when zeroed -- though I suspect at f5.6, the 85/1.4G will edge out the 105DC at the edges at normal distances.) The next thing worth noting is the 105DC performs outstandingly well at infinity -- I have read that neither 85/1.4 fares very well at distance. We need to compare them next time we're out together and do a head-to-head shootout across the board. Or better yet, let's have Bob do it since he owns both lenses