Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 40 of 40

Thread: Post Honeymoon?

  1. #1
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Maine, U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Post Honeymoon?

    The end of the year approaches and once again I'm looking to make a small purchase. This year I'm considering a D700 body and one new Nikon lens. Before I do, I thought I'd check in with those of you who jumped on the Nikon FF wagon early and have spent some time with the cameras. Are you still in love?

    I ask because the other option I'm considering is to expand my Leica gear. Even (gasp) to keep saving for the release of the S2. It's actually a tough call for me. And yes, it's "either or" since I'm A. not made of money, and B. married long enough to the same woman so that she's become completely hip to my tricks of persuasion.

    My main attraction to the D700 is the abilities it offers in close and tele applications. And, I confess to being curious about the larger sensor.

    Anyone who also uses the M8 care to offer their impressions after having spent time with both systems?

    Thanks!
    Tim

  2. #2
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Posts
    4,492
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    367

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    I sold my D3 and might replace it with a D700, but I am waiting for the next Nikon announcement. I am also considering a 5DII after I get to se some files. I was pretty disappointed by the relatively poor showing of the AF Nion primes, but as other have pointed out, there are ZF alternatives.
    -bob

  3. #3
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Why poor showing Bob? Not sharp or disappointed with the AF relative to their canon bretheren?

    One of the big sticking points which stopped me from switching to Nikon a couple of months back was the price for slow focusing primes compared to the super cheap, super fast focusing and super sharp Canon primes such as the 50/85/100 that I use for wedding use and love. To be honest I'm glad I did hold off. Money started to become incredibly tight, my credit cards need paying off and the bookings are a lot slower and people aren't taking the expensive packages anymore.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  4. #4
    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,895
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    16

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Expand Leica Gear or GASP....S2
    is my VOTE


    Nikon is sooooo Boring, homogenized & slick
    the everybody's gear (sorry to ALL my Nikon gearhead Friends )
    Think Different , Be Different
    or buy some retro Film Gear- CHEAP
    I mean you do have an M8
    how much more Digital do you need (or just add a great pocket cam Ricoh or the new coming sigma for a Digital Thrill)

    Be HAPPY .....

    Cheers ! H

  5. #5
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Maine, U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    I tend to think along the same lines as you do Helen. I'm not terribly excited by Nikon. Although having seen a D700 in person I was really impressed with the size of it. The thing is, I have a trip planned for April that will take me pretty far off the grid and I am not going to go with just the one M8. And it isn't looking like the S2 will be available by then. So kind of looking for that other system to bring along. It might be, as you say, a second M.

  6. #6
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Honestly after shooting MF it is really hard to think 35mm again. i know it certainly has it's place but you know right off the bat it will never beat your MF quality. So you buy the Nikons for other reasons for sure and those reasons have to be a real need.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Having played with a lot of D3/D700 NEF files (taken with uber long Nikons like the 200-400, etc) a Nikon pro was kind enough to send me on CD, I'll make some observations for your consideration.

    Context: I have shot older Nikon DSLRs an have been shooting Canon (1Ds, 1Ds2, 5D, 1D2, 30D) with alternate (CV, ZF, Leica, Mamiya) glass and have now settled on Leica R and Mamiya on my 1Ds2.

    - You'd look at the shots and go "nice'", then look at the ISO in EXIF and go "holy cr*p!"

    - I torqued the NEFs with NX2, RD, C1V4, etc - all have their +/- on NEF files, with RD really doing nice work (see below).

    - I found the D3/D700 NEF files required careful processing to get the acuity to pop. Don't know if it's firmware manipulation for NR or the AA filter, but even low ISO shots required LOTS of careful sharpening to come close to matching the performance (in acuity terms) of say a 5D or 1Ds/1Ds2 staright from the camera (assuming good glass) or with a light USM/smart sharpen pass.

    - RD with it's R-L deconvolution sharpening did the best when it came to bringing out fine detail.

    - I'd seriously thought of moving to Nikon, but after playing with the files decided I didn't want to invest the time in PP required - despite the (D700s) great feature set and high ISO performance.

    Again, juts my experience, others will vary.

  8. #8
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Maine, U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Thanks to everyone for your response. What's emerging is a conclusion that can be drawn from what's NOT being said. I'm not hearing any sort of ringing endorsement for the D700 or that it provides a nice compliment to the M8. Maybe what I need to do is to continue to wait a bit more for that next addition and hope that the S2 fits me as I hope it will.

    There's something about the current state of medium format digital that doesn't feel right for me. Maybe it's because I remember the old film Hassleblad and Mamiya 645 days. My memory (which could be wrong) is that in order to get any kind of depth of field required a lot of light. Either flash or full on sunlight. And that they were big and awkward and not really made to withstand the elements. All of which pigeon-holed them in my mind as studio cameras. It's a preconception I guess, one that's hard to break.

    Since I don't have a business reason for the MF level of quality and simply want to tickle myself with the joy of shooting, I think I'll add another M8 body as a backup for my trip and look around for a nice 50mm lens. And continue to wait for the S2.

  9. #9
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Not much is going to beat a M8 and i think many of us know that , need high ISO than get a Nikon other than that the quality is not better than the M8. Now if shooting stuff outside the M8 realm of limitations than obviously you need the Nikons or Canons. Mf does have the DOF limitations and is a little bulkier but not bad . For travel maybe not the right choice. Besides if your going to have a backup than have the same primary otherwise it really is not a backup. But just another system to carry. JMBA
    New acronym . Just My Biased Answer

    okay in a silly mood this morning
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  10. #10
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Maine, U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    You're 100% correct about the backup Guy. You have artfully exposed my latent GAS! So many cool toys out there it's hard to resist sometimes.

  11. #11
    Senior Member ecliffordsmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Antwerpen
    Posts
    467
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Hi Tim,

    I cannot offer any advice I am afraid as I have never owned a DSLR. How likely are you to need macro/tele functionality and high ISO? From what I have seen of your images you appear to shoot a lot in good light and as you are well aware the M8 with a Leica lens offers very pleasing, low maintainance results.

    How about compact incase the M8 fails? Or an M8.2???

  12. #12
    nei1
    Guest

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Tim,my advice if you want to stretch yourself is to buy a second hand M6 ,a 50mm summilux and take nothing else,you will return from the wilderness a better man!
    p.s. some film might be a good idea! Tri X only!

  13. #13
    Subscriber Member mwalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    924
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    74

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    I may be jumping in here late but I bought a D700 and the new Nikon (24-70 ?) lens and took it to wyoming with the M8 in September. When I got home I worked on the M8 images less than four minutes each in PP. The Nikon much longer and could never get them quite to the M8 level. I sold the D700. That said, I'm thinking about buying a D300 for car races and things that I don't consder art mainly for the sensor crop factor and extra reach. I wish along with the S2 launch they would offer a R10!
    Mike

    website under construction

  14. #14
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Maine, U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Ed: Yes, I think the most practical purchase is likely to be the M8.2 body, or even a used M8 (they seem to be dropping in price). And that's probably where I'll end up.

    nei1: I have my trusty Nikon F3 that's been serviced and ready to rock. There's a half-exposed roll of Tri-X in it now and that's as far as I'm willing to go with film at this point. I hate not having a darkroom and won't invest in a technology (film) that essentially puts big barriers in front of my ability/desire to shoot. Laziness is enough of a factor to overcome.

    Mike: Your story about the D700 is not the only one with the same ending that I've heard. So I have decided to NOT buy the D700. What's that old song... "how you gonna keep them down on the farm, after they've seen Pareee?"


    Thanks,
    Tim

  15. #15
    nei1
    Guest

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Glad that youve kept a toe in the water Tim,one of the few cameras that Im sorely tempted by is the f6.

  16. #16
    Subscriber Member Jonathon Delacour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    454
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Sad to see the D700 not getting any love (in the Nikon forum, no less!).

    I realize I might be happier with the M8's superior image quality, as long as I was willing/able to:
    * spend considerably more money on both camera and lenses;
    * tolerate Leica's (no longer legendary) service and support;
    * shoot at 640 ISO or lower;
    * purchase what seems to be the essential accessory for any serious M8 shooter -- a second (backup) body.

    I'd also like nothing more than to have a girlfriend who is loving, rich, beautiful, generous, intelligent, kind, witty, forgiving... but I'm old enough to understand that everything in life is a compromise. The D700 is the best photographic compromise I've ever been fortunate enough to own (and I've owned Leica, Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad, Mamiya, Fuji, Linhof, and Sinar cameras).

    To be honest, this whole thread seems (to me) like a joke really. I've struggled all my life to get anywhere remotely close to the "quality" that Eugene Atget, Bill Brandt, Walker Evans, Lisette Model, Robert Frank, Helen Levitt, William Klein, Diane Arbus et al achieved with equipment that was (technically) pathetic compared to what we have available today. Would any of them have accomplished significantly more with an M8 or a D700? I doubt it.

    Yet, as a substitute for magical pictures, we settle for this interminable argument about how many angels can sit on the head of a pin.

  17. #17
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Jonathon the M8 is no bed of roses either and your points are well taken and well acknowledged by everyone that owns one and well on point. I think I can clarify a little here. What you have in this thread are folks that actually shoot the M8 exclusively and what there issue or wall they are looking at is the D700 image wise does not match up as nicely as the M8 files. i think that is the main counterpoint to the D700 which on it's own is a very capable machine and i don't really seeing anyone saying truly anything different it has it all and Nikon has truly raised the bar on it and all of us would be happy to own one but there is a but in there. For MF shooters like me 35mm has Zero interest anymore and if anything want a M8 because of the image quality for one and two the size weight of having a image maker that comes close to MF. For others it is they have the M8 and all there really buying in a Nikon or canon is capabilities and a lot of M8 shooters are not hard core shooters that need that type of speed about the only thing of interest to them is the high ISO but they also have to work at there images in post a lot more. The lenses from Nikon and Canon and i will get flamed for this are good and some very good but in 35mm that level of glass needs to be high to get the best out of 35mm , Leica and Zeiss are only the two that actually really stand on top of the podium for that. i owned everything and nothing in 35mm impressed me until I got the DMR and/or M8 when it came to glass . Snob yes and actually many of us are when it comes to lens output especially in 35mm where you need the highest resolving power you can get your hands on. I think most people on this forum are what i would classify as discriminate buyers they been down this road before and shot some of the best glass around and when buying something else there expectations are not being meet and wind up selling that system off and for many reasons too.

    Now I do disagree with your last comments in a sense that better equipment and as a Pro that better gear makes your life easier to deal with the image than play games with the gear and actually trust the gear to explore the creative. Would it have helped some of the greats. It sure would have because they would have taken the technology present today and used that to there best advantage. Maybe there images would not have been better but getting there would have freed them when shooting to think more and actually use the technology to there advantage and work habits . So yes i still buy the fact that good gear helps the output. Now that comes from someone that is not afraid to work really hard to get a image so it is not the work ethic it is the freedom it helps you.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  18. #18
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    I'll go against the grain here.

    I'd take a D700 over a M8 every single second, of every day, of every month ... when shooting in the real world as opposed to an ideal one.

    I'm not talking about all the functional trials and tribulations one has to put up with just to use a M8. I'm talking about getting the shot, first and foremost. I'm also talking about trusting your camera. Or being able to shoot in low light. Or shoot without "specular light" filter reflections in low ambient light. Or getting something fixed without being a brother-in-law to someone at Leica, or working overtime to smooze the service secretary Or selling off all your Goats just to buy one lens

    Image quality from the D700 can be every bit as good as the M8s or nearly so ... IF, (BIG IF), one spends as much time as they did zeroing in profiles for the M8. The ZF optics do help and cost a fraction of their Leica counterparts ... but some of the new Nikon glass is pretty stellar for production work.

    I do massive amounts of images in the business I'm in, and you get to the heart of it pretty quick. While I would love to shoot every wedding with a MFD camera, I would need the computing power of the Pentagon to process weddings fast enough.

    I also did massive amounts of images for years with Canon (5D, 1DMKII&III, 1DsMKII&III) ... the D3 and D700 files do NOT need more sharpening ... in fact it was quite the opposite with every Canon file I ever shot. Waxy and plastic. The 1DMKIII was particularly bad. I tend to think those saying differently haven't spent much time with the cameras and working out the optimal settings for each one.

    Nice "fat pixel" 12 meg files without a crop factor keeps it real, the high ISO is clearly superior, and post is manageable when processing a 500 to 800 image wedding every freaking' week. The Nikon Prime lens line up does need help ... but I gotta say my 200/2VR barks with the best, and the new 100/2.8 VR Macro is excellent. The new 24-70/2.8 Zoom is waaaaaay better than Canon's in every way, and there simply is nothing Canon makes below 35mm that comes close to the new Nikon 14-24/2.8.

    BTW, if you don't discriminate against film, in my humble opinion, the Nikon F6 including select Zeiss ZF optics is the best all around 35mm system available today, including anything from Leica (and, yes, I've owned and shot with "everything" from Leica.)

    Just keeping it real folks ... different needs ... and if my need was just a few shots I'd do snaps with a P&S and the rest with a MFD camera.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    TR - I have a D3 with less than 1000 actuations and have owned it and a number of lenses including older Nikon , new auto everything zooms and some Zeiss Nikon mount stuff.

    I hardly ever use it. Dont get me wrong, it is a fantastic camera - with many many features and benefits ( most of which I dont use !! ) - if I were buying today I would go for the D700 - because it is a smaller 'package'.

    However - I wouldn't spend a buck until you see the S2 - looks like this camera might deliver the compactness and the IQ via high megapixels. But all these MFD cameras require a different approach to shooting - a lot of care is required to get the megapixel benefits - you wont get super sharp unless you use high shutter speeds and or tripod and or lights...and it is easy to get blahh shots if you dont shoot to their strengths.

    Everything is a compromise - one way or another. Meanwhile - the M8 used right - delivers..

    sorry if I sound like a party pooper

  20. #20
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    etrigan63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Earth, Sol System (near Miami, FL)
    Posts
    2,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    I have to agree with fotografz. I have an M8 (love it) and a D300 (workhorse). I shoot the M8 when there is no pressure and I can take my time. With the v2 firmware, my post processing times are shorter. If I am doing a job or traveling, the D300 is my tool of choice, able to quickly adapt to rapidly changing situations. As for low-light, while it is not in the D700's league, it is capable of shots like this:



    D300 + 18-200 VR kit lens ISO 1600 handheld. Almost no PP in LR2 (just my personal D300 profiles applied).
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

  21. #21
    Senior Member atanabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Napa Valley, CA
    Posts
    470
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    I have an M8 and also shoot with Nikon albeit a D1x and find that the term "horses for courses" is appropriate here. Now the M8 is small and light, begging to go on daily walks but prone to the limitations of long focal length capabilities and fear of failure. Mine just so happens to be on a spa vacation in Allendale,NJ for just such a breakdown.

    I love the M8, the files are really nice but the platform is limiting, low light/high ISO performance is spotty, literally, if you have a point light source in the picture. But if the conditions are right the files have no peer in 35 equivalent DSLR. Long lens work is limited by the practicality of rangefinder focusing on a small patch in the viewfinder and the accuracy of framing. So the need for a DSLR for the long lens work is a given. BUT if you do not use lenses greater than 90mm or have a job shooting macro table top, then stick with the M8.

    I am waiting for the price of the D90 to settle down before I buy another DSLR. Why D90? It has the high ISO performance that the D3 and D700 has with a smaller platform. The cost at $999 is much more affordable and in keeping with the "Horses for courses" long lens performance is better suited for a 1.5 crop and smaller lenses. The moral here is that if it is too big and heavy then you aren't going to carry it around everyday. If you don't carry your camera around, you won't take any images, which solves the PP issues I guess.

    Cheers,
    Al
    Al Tanabe my website https://www.altanabe.com

  22. #22
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,800
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    I'm an M8 and also Nikon D3 & D700 user so I guess I fit your demographic. My general observation would be that sometimes you really need the versatility of a DSLR ...

    I love the form factor of the M8 and the remarkable images that it delivers with it's wonderful glass. I'm almost post-production free when I use it since images only really need minimal work compared to almost all DSLR images. I'm almost fully vested with an M8, M8.2 and coded Leica glass from WATE, 28 & 35 'crons, 50 'lux, 75 'cron, 90 'cron and 135 APO Telyt so I can't blame the glass. As an outfit I really enjoy using it and can't see any reason to change it but it isn't ideal for many types of shooting such as landscapes where I need grads, macro or telephoto work. No problem, I have other tools for that.

    From a convenience and versatility point of view I find either of the Nikons much better. The quality of the glass is excellent, especially the latest Nano coated zooms. The high ISO versatility of both D3 & D700 mean that I can practically forget about sensor limitation when shooting in low light and I can use three variables - aperture, exposure & ISO - to get what I want. The sensor performance is outrageous IMHO.

    The D700 and Zeiss MF primes makes for a great DSLR travel kit for me. I really like the quality of images that the Zeiss glass delivers and I find it more convenient sometimes than schlepping around with a big zoom. (i.e. 14-24 or 24-70).

    The form factor of the D3 suites my hands perfectly and the heft actually works for me. I confess that I bought the D700 as a lighter weight companion to the D3, expecting to use it only as a spare or for travel, but I find myself using it a lot more often than planned. The only significant downside of the D700 vs D3 is really the cropped viewfinder (95%), with the D3 having a superior set of external controls/dials for my use. The only limitation I've run into has been in the constant quest for more and more pixels for landscape work - something Nikon have just addressed with the D3x.

    From a post processing perspective, the files from the Nikon's require a little extra work although this depends a lot on which raw processor I use. Nikon Capture NX does a fabulous job of rendering images using the in-camera sharpness, tone and contrast settings from raw. The CA removal is also a significant factor to making image production as simple as possible. I'm normally only doing local contrast & local dodge & burn to my Nikon images now - I couldn't say that about using any of the previous generation Nikon D cameras I've had from the D1 through to the D2x.

    I was an early adopter of medium format digital back in 2004 when I shot with a Mamiya 645AFD and Kodak 645M - 16mp of exquisite detail that if I'm honest still beats some of the aspects of my Nikon files today. The lack of AA filter really proved it's worth in the sharpness and detail in landscape shots that the Nikons slightly blur over, even with extra sharpening. I know that the latest crop of medium format backs can simply blow my old Kodak away in terms of resolution, color fidelity, noise and overall dynamic range. However, there is a very large difference in the utility of any medium format system compared to that of the Nikon, particularly where you've got lenses of all types from super wide through to extreme telephoto, intelligent flash solutions, specialist lenses such as T/S, zoom versatility, not to mention an overall cost point that is far more manageable. I had a pretty complete Mamiya AF outfit from 35, 45, 55, 80, 120 macro, 300, 55-120 & 105-210 zooms - however compared the D3 or D700 the system was relatively crude, poor AF performance and often fragile (although this was mostly an attribute of the back/camera interface). I shot a lot less with it than when I returned to DRFs and Nikon DSLRs.

    The quest for the S2 is laudable and I understand why people here are recommending waiting for it as an alternative. However, think long and hard about the cost and availability of the system ... it isn't going to be 'affordable', it's going to be a premium priced Leica system where each lens is going to cost you more than a D700 & 24-70 lens combo would. I'm as guilty as anyone here of being a Leica fan-boy but realistically the S2 is a system that I could only consider as an alternative to a full Phase One/Hassy medium format digital outfit, not as an alternative to something like the Nikons.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 28th November 2008 at 19:13.

  23. #23
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,864
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    I have my own math for the S2:

    1) I know the perfect IQ from the M8 with it's 10MP and the exceptional glass
    2) the sensor of the S2 is approximately 4x the size and MPs as the M8
    3) I expect same or higher quality from the S2 as with the current M8, but this at 4x the resolution

    This is why I am waiting for it and meanwhile trying to sort out my FF DSLR stuff to suit my needs, as I might add an S2 as soon as it is available and working properly

  24. #24
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I have my own math for the S2:

    1) I know the perfect IQ from the M8 with it's 10MP and the exceptional glass
    2) the sensor of the S2 is approximately 4x the size and MPs as the M8
    3) I expect same or higher quality from the S2 as with the current M8, but this at 4x the resolution

    This is why I am waiting for it and meanwhile trying to sort out my FF DSLR stuff to suit my needs, as I might add an S2 as soon as it is available and working properly
    #1? "Perfect" IQ?

    I doubt #3 is going to fullfil your 4X expectations. But it should be excellent.

  25. #25
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Honestly, these comparisons are sort of pointless. You have to sort out your shooting needs and priorities and apply the "horses for courses" rule of thumb.

    My criteria is dictated by the demands of the work I do for money. I wish I could shoot a wedding with just a couple of M8s. Some people can. I can't. I can't shoot a ring shot without a true macro lens, or a ceremony while relegated to a balcony 250 feet away without long lenses. I can't imagine a bird shooter or a sports photographer using a M8 either.

    Personally, I also like to do street photography ... however this is often done handheld, available light in the wee hours or at night .... I'd love to use a M8 here also, but the D700 with Zeiss optics provides higher ISOs, full frame capture, and stellar optical performance in a package not really much larger than the M8.

    I love my M system and have had one for most my adult life. But it's relevance and use is waining as other solutions to very real-world needs present themselves.

  26. #26
    TimF
    Guest

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Indeed. It'll be twice the resolution.

  27. #27
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Maine, U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Honestly, these comparisons are sort of pointless. You have to sort out your shooting needs and priorities and apply the "horses for courses" rule of thumb.
    I feel I should respond since I started this thread. Clearly, many who have added their take on this (thank you for your thoughtful responses) are working professionals. I recognize the distinction that makes when it comes time to make purchasing decisions. Photo gear for them are the tools of the trade and there needs to be a clear benefit to each investment.

    However, I don't fall into that category. To be honest, I have no idea what category I fall under. I was a working pro in the 70s and 80s and have worked with some of the best equipment available during that time. So after returning 20 + years later to photography, It's not as if I'm graduating from the P+S category into "pro-sumer" level tech for the first time.

    My own goals are both simple and fuzzy. I know I want to advance my skills and the quality of my images as far as I can, but I don't have some specific target in mind (like turning pro again, or selling prints, or even teaching).

    One of the things I love about the M8 is that I see things in the files that just plain make me smile. Call me crazy, but it brings me back to my early days of shooting sheet film. Even in less-than-prize-winning shots, I would get all gooey looking at the beauty of the tonality and detail. The Nikon I own (D2Xs) doesn't give me that. The M8 does.

    So I do want to add to my capabilities and continue to pursue that elusive "quality". If I could access a darkroom, I'd be shooting 4x5 and case closed. But I don't and won't any time soon. So it's digital all the way.

    Do I need low light capability? Not really. Do I want tele and macro? Yup. But will the files show me the "magic"? Capture the subtlety of the light I saw? Many of the characteristics of the equipment and techniques are near-invisible nuances that lots of people don't see. But they are true joy to me. And since it's not about a "job", it's all about the joy for me.

  28. #28
    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,895
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    16

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    My own goals are both simple and fuzzy. I know I want to advance my skills and the quality of my images as far as I can, but I don't have some specific target in mind ...
    And since it's not about a "job", it's all about the joy for me.
    Couldn't AGREE more....
    For Me its about Pure Pleasure
    capturing the Light & Moment
    Creating atmosphere
    and being totally Consumed in the Moment

    Rght now its mostly Film for me
    but the ease & instant gratification of digital is still there (mind you, I am Lusting for a possible DP2 whenever it comes out & YES maybe an M8)

    To Finding Joy....
    Best-H

  29. #29
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austria, close to Vienna
    Posts
    3,864
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    My requirements / needs for the S System are the following:

    1) I am not a Pro but sometimes I want highest IQ and then I can really think of the S2 delivering this - will have to be proven though, as well as the final price of this system must come to a range which I can (am willing) to pay

    2) I will use this camera for high level studio work, landscape and others, but definitely NOT as travel camera - where I prefer currently Canon - either 450D and in the future also 5DM2

    3) the M8 (and probably M9 in the future) I use for locations where I need to work silent and where I need to stay "undercover"

  30. #30
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    I feel I should respond since I started this thread. Clearly, many who have added their take on this (thank you for your thoughtful responses) are working professionals. I recognize the distinction that makes when it comes time to make purchasing decisions. Photo gear for them are the tools of the trade and there needs to be a clear benefit to each investment.

    However, I don't fall into that category. To be honest, I have no idea what category I fall under. I was a working pro in the 70s and 80s and have worked with some of the best equipment available during that time. So after returning 20 + years later to photography, It's not as if I'm graduating from the P+S category into "pro-sumer" level tech for the first time.

    My own goals are both simple and fuzzy. I know I want to advance my skills and the quality of my images as far as I can, but I don't have some specific target in mind (like turning pro again, or selling prints, or even teaching).

    One of the things I love about the M8 is that I see things in the files that just plain make me smile. Call me crazy, but it brings me back to my early days of shooting sheet film. Even in less-than-prize-winning shots, I would get all gooey looking at the beauty of the tonality and detail. The Nikon I own (D2Xs) doesn't give me that. The M8 does.

    So I do want to add to my capabilities and continue to pursue that elusive "quality". If I could access a darkroom, I'd be shooting 4x5 and case closed. But I don't and won't any time soon. So it's digital all the way.

    Do I need low light capability? Not really. Do I want tele and macro? Yup. But will the files show me the "magic"? Capture the subtlety of the light I saw? Many of the characteristics of the equipment and techniques are near-invisible nuances that lots of people don't see. But they are true joy to me. And since it's not about a "job", it's all about the joy for me.
    The assumption that "doing the job" is a bloodless endeavor, and working stiffs don't derive "gooey joy" from beautifully rendered images seems counter to the attitude of any working stiff I know. In fact, quite the opposite.

    Depending on the lenses used, I could easily see a D2x not living up to your expectations compared to a M8. However, a D2X isn't a D3. And even then, depending on the lenses used, I can understand a preference for the M8 files (I have both cameras.)

    The rest of your description, tele/macro etc, all with that subtile magic and near invisable nuance, is a perfect description of MF digital capture.

  31. #31
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Maine, U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...
    The rest of your description, tele/macro etc, all with that subtile magic and near invisable nuance, is a perfect description of MF digital capture.
    Too true. And a bit scary.

  32. #32
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    Do I need low light capability? Not really. Do I want tele and macro? Yup. But will the files show me the "magic"? Capture the subtlety of the light I saw? Many of the characteristics of the equipment and techniques are near-invisible nuances that lots of people don't see. But they are true joy to me. And since it's not about a "job", it's all about the joy for me.
    HI Tim
    Well, I haven't chipped in before, but nobody seems to me to have stated the obvious answer.

    I've owned a D3, and a D700 (and a D1x, D2x, D100 and D200). They are excellent cameras (as Marc has said above). The D700 was competent, fast, efficient, and produced excellent files - even the colour is okay as long as you don't allow it to use AWB. The high ISO is splended.

    It is exactly what my wife used to say about Ealing (an uninspired suburb of London): It has everything you NEED and nothing you WANT.

    There seems to be a word missing somewhere - joy.

    It shouldn't matter, but I shoot better when I like the camera I'm shooting with, and that's an elusive thing, which the leica M series definitely has.

    So - either wait for an S2, or else buy a Sony A900.

    It's about the same price as a D700, it's 25mp and it uses Zeiss lenses. And the files will make you smile - Oh Yes! (if you want to look at some I can send you a link to some of my raw files).

    The body doesn't have many of the features of the D700 . . . but it's a joy to use - clearly designed by Minolta crew, it has so little in common with it's name.

    The only problem is that you'll have to live with:

    1. Jurgen taking the piss out of you about walkmen
    2. Everybody doing arcane comparisons with their medium format kit and deciding that MF is better

    Just this guy you know

  33. #33
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Maine, U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Tim

    So - either wait for an S2, or else buy a Sony A900.
    That screeching noise you hear is my brain trying to change gears. Sony? Really? I absolutely love my Sony plasma but I am having some difficulty wedging that brand name into the category of photography. Maybe I need to expand my thinking a bit. Be more open minded.

    I do like the idea of using the Zeiss glass. And it would certainly be less expensive than the S2. And you have owned all of the others being discussed so your opinion is certainly valid (and welcome). Hmmmmm.

    But really? I mean you do see stuff in the files that make you smile? It's so hard to tell anything from the the various lens and camera tests that show pictures of vegetables cropped at 100%. Show me the goo!

  34. #34
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    etrigan63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Earth, Sol System (near Miami, FL)
    Posts
    2,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Coming to Jono's defense (not that he needs it), he has shared with me a rather large selection of RAW images from his A900 and I have to say that he is right about the combo "having the magic". Were it not for the lack of tilt/shift lenses, I would be all over this.
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

  35. #35
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    That screeching noise you hear is my brain trying to change gears. Sony? Really? I absolutely love my Sony plasma but I am having some difficulty wedging that brand name into the category of photography. Maybe I need to expand my thinking a bit. Be more open minded.

    I do like the idea of using the Zeiss glass. And it would certainly be less expensive than the S2. And you have owned all of the others being discussed so your opinion is certainly valid (and welcome). Hmmmmm.

    But really? I mean you do see stuff in the files that make you smile? It's so hard to tell anything from the the various lens and camera tests that show pictures of vegetables cropped at 100%. Show me the goo!
    I do like to make somebody's gears screech!
    Carlos - thanks for the kind words. I agree that it's a pity about the T/S lenses. If they stay serious I'm sure they'll come . . . well, fairly sure!

    I hadn't got around to moving the files, so they are still in my mobileme account.

    Tim - I've sent you the link - help yourself and enjoy (they are converted to DNG for size reasons, but in Aperture at least the dng seem to be as good as the original RAW files).

    Anyone else want the link, then send me a PM or an email and you can have it!

    Just this guy you know

  36. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.S. Canada
    Posts
    2,010
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Sitting here on a cold night sipping a martini while the chili finishes fermenting, so I thought i'd bob this thread to the surface.

    Finally managed to try a local D700 with some nice glass (14-24, 70-200 VR and 60 Macro (old version)) today (local camera shops here move vverrryy slowly) and:

    1. VERY impressed with build, ergos, VF and just 'feel'. Feels like a D300 with sometime in the gym as it were. Feels like my R8+motorgrip did - fits like a glove.

    2. High ISO shots (2500 in this case) - bloody stellar. Though "nice shot" (thinking was ISO 200-400), looked at EXIF and uttered a bad word (or 3).

    3. Files are soft out of camera but default sharpening in RD make them snap. Took some nice snaps of the better half (my very reluctant test model) that came out very nicely.

    4. Menu system - more convoluted then need be, but workable. Bear in mind and used to Canon 1 series, so some setting took some head scratching initially.

    5. LCD - sweet. Just sweet

    6. AF very nice. Not 1 series, but close enough that it was nothing to complain about.

    7. 14-24 - Great. Feel re: manual focus, etc was a little wanting vs. the Leica primes I use, but such is life in the plastic fantastic AF age

    8. 70-200 VF. Didn't test edge performance on FF (where tend s to be wanting) as don't care per se. Nice lens, smaller than Canon version (diameter), nice handling. Great VF and IQ. Resulted in some nice in-store shots at just under 1/2 FL that came out very nicely.

    9. Auto WB - seemed fine. Not quite as bang-on as 1Ds2, but close enough to tweak.

    10. Flash - the onboard flash is handy and easy to tweak. One of these things you poo-poo over but suddenly realize the value of (with a modifier of course) when you get one you can work with for fill purposes.

    11. VF and focus indication system - nice. Wish #$% Canon would backward engineer it for the 5D line (one of my biggest complaints with that body design)

    All and all - a nice camera and given that can now use Leica lenses on same, worthy of consideration.

  37. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fort Collins, Colorado
    Posts
    2,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    Ed: Yes, I think the most practical purchase is likely to be the M8.2 body, or even a used M8 (they seem to be dropping in price). And that's probably where I'll end up.

    nei1: I have my trusty Nikon F3 that's been serviced and ready to rock. There's a half-exposed roll of Tri-X in it now and that's as far as I'm willing to go with film at this point. I hate not having a darkroom and won't invest in a technology (film) that essentially puts big barriers in front of my ability/desire to shoot. Laziness is enough of a factor to overcome.

    Mike: Your story about the D700 is not the only one with the same ending that I've heard. So I have decided to NOT buy the D700. What's that old song... "how you gonna keep them down on the farm, after they've seen Pareee?"


    Thanks,
    Tim
    Tim

    Terry Banet has two M8's for sale here at $2800 each and they are in beautiful condition. My word you could buy one of these and use as is or go for the new shutter and framelines and it would still be a bargain. JMHO

    Woody

  38. #38
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Terry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    6,955
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1145

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Tim

    Terry Banet has two M8's for sale here at $2800 each and they are in beautiful condition. My word you could buy one of these and use as is or go for the new shutter and framelines and it would still be a bargain. JMHO

    Woody
    I already have upgrade service scheduled for March....so the buyer should be able to take my place in line.

  39. #39
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Maine, U.S.A.
    Posts
    2,406
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    9

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Thanks to everyone for keeping this alive. Since originally starting this thread, I've lapsed into something of a trance-like state where I can easily imagine myself buying and using all of the mentioned systems. However, as a business owner, I'm currently in the wait-and-see mode re: the economy and how that will impact my clients (and ultimately my business). They are all Fortune 500 companies and the downturn will either require them to cancel plans for my services or increase them. It's too early to tell. Unfortunately, until that becomes more clear, new camera purchases will have to stay towards the bottom of the requirements list.

    It doesn't make resisting the urge to buy any easier now that there's a camera body that will accept my Leica glass. Damn those pesky innovative camera companies! Still, I intend to remain frugal for the time being. The worst thing that could happen (and it's not all that bad) is that I end up with my single M8 and my Nikon D2Xs on my holiday in April.

  40. #40
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,800
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: Post Honeymoon?

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    The worst thing that could happen (and it's not all that bad) is that I end up with my single M8 and my Nikon D2Xs on my holiday in April.
    Too true. You could do a LOT worse than that combo. The D2Xs didn't become a door stop just because of the D3/D700 ...

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •