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Thread: D3x likely official next week

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    A business in the UK has to be earning above ~45,000 profit to be VAT registered, I'm certainly not and I doubt many pro's are apart from the big commercial outfits.
    Ben, I didn't know that. Tough for freelancers for sure. Not so here in Sweden, although you do have to show that you are a for-profit business in the long term.

    Some impressive full-res jpegs here:

    http://www.nikon-image.com/jpn/produ...d3x/sample.htm

    I'm looking forward to seeing some real-world tests and comparisons over the next month or two.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    That's a given, I think.

    With the D3x, Nikon targets the pro market where image quality and resolution is most important - studio, fashion, product. Competitors - as a system - are Canon with 1Ds, and several MFD manufacturers. If Nikon can deliver image quality comparable to MFD systems then the D3x is certainly priced right.

    Cost-conscious photographers looking to move up in resolution is a different market, this is where A900 and now 5dII reside, and it's of course much more of a volume market than that for the D3x. It would only make sense for Nikon to eventually put the D3x sensor in a lower-spec body, just as with the D3 and D700. Time gap there was 12 months, so perhaps next fall?
    D3X may be targeted for Pro MF market, but compared to the 1DSM3 and even 5DM2 it sucks. Mainly if you look for the ISO range of 5DM2 and also the sensor clean is missing. Especially sensor cleaning is a must for a Pro camera, because what I really hate is to remove dust from pictures in painful post processing.

    And I also do not understand how you come to the conclusion that between D3 and D700 has ben a 1 year gap? D3 was announced in August 2007 and available December 2007 while D700 was available July 2008. So it took Nikon only some 6-9 months to put the 12MP FF sensor into a smaller and cheaper body. I am sure they will do the same for the D3X and there will be a D800 with sensor clean and 24MP next summer - for approximately half the price of the D3X.

    Anyway I am pretty much disappointed with the D3X as I expected at least true 16bit color depth, sensor clean and basic ISO range till 3200, expandable till 12800. Now what they have shown demonstrates clearly they are hitting the wall with their technology, as they do not control all the elements like the sensor.

    Canon is poised to deliver much better values here with their next flagship 1DsMxyz, which I expect to be introduced during PMA 2009.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    It's interesting how you can dismiss products out of hand before they have even been released to the public. Shouldn't we wait to see how these files actually look? Spec sheets never tell the whole story. As for sensor cleaning...well, it might be nice to have, but the body is fully weather sealed. I have been shooting with my D3 since April and so far no visible dust at all, and I change lenses all the time.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    D3X may be targeted for Pro MF market, but compared to the 1DSM3 and even 5DM2 it sucks. Mainly if you look for the ISO range of 5DM2 and also the sensor clean is missing. Especially sensor cleaning is a must for a Pro camera, because what I really hate is to remove dust from pictures in painful post processing.

    And I also do not understand how you come to the conclusion that between D3 and D700 has ben a 1 year gap? D3 was announced in August 2007 and available December 2007 while D700 was available July 2008. So it took Nikon only some 6-9 months to put the 12MP FF sensor into a smaller and cheaper body. I am sure they will do the same for the D3X and there will be a D800 with sensor clean and 24MP next summer - for approximately half the price of the D3X.

    Anyway I am pretty much disappointed with the D3X as I expected at least true 16bit color depth, sensor clean and basic ISO range till 3200, expandable till 12800. Now what they have shown demonstrates clearly they are hitting the wall with their technology, as they do not control all the elements like the sensor.

    Canon is poised to deliver much better values here with their next flagship 1DsMxyz, which I expect to be introduced during PMA 2009.
    Peter,
    My mistake I mixed up D3 announcement and release dates.

    As for disappointment in image processing specs, let's wait for independent reviews of shipping products, shall we?
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Video interview with the Swedish Nikon rep re D3x here (in Swedish only):

    http://tv.mediaprovider.se/intervju_...152369130.html

    Some high-ISO samples here (obviously made by a talent-challenged photographer ):

    http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews_nikon_d3x_3.php
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    It's interesting how you can dismiss products out of hand before they have even been released to the public. Shouldn't we wait to see how these files actually look? Spec sheets never tell the whole story. As for sensor cleaning...well, it might be nice to have, but the body is fully weather sealed. I have been shooting with my D3 since April and so far no visible dust at all, and I change lenses all the time.
    I do not dismiss a product, maybe for many the D3X might be what they like and wanted all the time, for me this is unfortunately disappointing, as I expected a real PRO product and not a toy they came finally up after so many months and not being able to really deliver what was expected!

    If you are happy with what you get then fine, go and buy one

    And yes, I was not as fortunate as you with dust on sensor, I had to clean my D3 already after 1 week use, mainly because of particles still in he body from production So I really look for sensor clean in any Pro camera from this time on.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Video interview with the Swedish Nikon rep re D3x here (in Swedish only):

    http://tv.mediaprovider.se/intervju_...152369130.html

    Some high-ISO samples here (obviously made by a talent-challenged photographer ):

    http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews_nikon_d3x_3.php
    True, better do not look at these samples

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Peter -- I don't intend to buy one, as I have a medium format back for the application that the D3x is intended for. But you clearly do dismiss it out of hand when you say that it "sucks" compared to the 5DMkII and 1DsMkIII and that it is a "toy" not a pro camera. Do you consider the D3 a pro camera? Because the D3x is basically the exact same camera with a different sensor in it. Obviously it does not meet your criteria, but I think your criticisms are a bit harsh, especially considering hardly anyone has actually had the chance to shoot with it OR the 5DMkII.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I do not dismiss a product, maybe for many the D3X might be what they like and wanted all the time, for me this is unfortunately disappointing, as I expected a real PRO product and not a toy they came finally up after so many months and not being able to really deliver what was expected!

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Yes, Nikon should not be judged by those appalling High ISO shots. The photog needs new glasses/contacts. It is also unclear if there was any in-camera NR happening for the 3200-6400 shots. Empirical evidence says "yes" as the model's hair became an indistinguishable brunette mass on her head. He needed to do these as NEF conversion to really show it off. I really had some high hopes for this camera but I'll wait for the D800 version for my landscape needs, I think.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    Yes, Nikon should not be judged by those appalling High ISO shots. The photog needs new glasses/contacts. It is also unclear if there was any in-camera NR happening for the 3200-6400 shots. Empirical evidence says "yes" as the model's hair became an indistinguishable brunette mass on her head. He needed to do these as NEF conversion to really show it off. I really had some high hopes for this camera but I'll wait for the D800 version for my landscape needs, I think.
    Help is at hand Carlos - just getting my act together

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Some interesting D3x samples - with new 50/1.4 AFS

    http://www.studioimpressionsphotogra...sample-images/

    Naturally, the various forums have everyones knickers in full wedgie-mode 'debating' the obvious inherent superiority of X vs. Y vs. any camera or MFDB ever made, currently being made or even planning on being made by anyone; why Nikon didn't have a 2:1 sale on the D3x, etc., etc.

    God, we humans are nothing if not (sadly) predictable in our ability,as a whole, to make idiots of ourselves at the drop of a hat.
    Last edited by robmac; 1st December 2008 at 15:21.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    God, we humans are nothing if not (sadly) predictable in our ability,as a whole, to make idiots of ourselves at the drop of a hat.
    Ahh Rob - but it certainly makes for a little light entertainment between sorting out VAT anomolies for clients.

    Come to think of it, perhaps YOU were speaking of Mr Alistair Darling too!

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    I would be very surprised if the D3x isn't a fantastic camera in most respects, and for work purposes, I would even prefer the integrated grip compared to a D700/A900 style body (more compact with grip mounted, more solid build). What Nikon is doing though, is gambling a bit with the price, putting it on Canon 1DsIII level. But this is a gamble they won with the D3, so they may pull it off again.

    However, the market has changed a bit since then. Last year, there was no A900 around, and with the Zeiss lenses, it's a very compelling alternative. And for me at least, in-body IS would be a big advantage. Apart from the 200, Nikon has no VR-lenses faster than f/2.8. I would kill for that on an 85 and/or 135, which are focal lengths I use a lot under low-light conditions.

    The D3x is more or less exactly what I expected Nikon to launch, although at a price I'm not comfortable with. The surprise to me is that it takes them so long time to come up with new primes. A fast WA would be obvious, particularly since the 28/1.4 is no more, and a 135/2.0 with AF-S and VR is long overdue as well. 300/4 with VR? How difficult can it be? Photographers are waiting in scores for that one.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 1st December 2008 at 15:50.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    I think the prices will come down to below $5,000 in a few months.

    Sony is becoming more and more attractive.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    The Walkman rules

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    A fast WA would be obvious, particularly since the 28/1.4 is no more, and a 135/2.0 with AF-S and VR is long overdue as well. 300/4 with VR? How difficult can it be? Photographers are waiting in scores for that one.
    I saw a list somewhere of possible rumoured lenses which included 135 f1.8VR and I think a 35 f1.4 but it was just a rumour thread, but so was the D3x.
    I'm looking at getting a D700, as they are getting cheaper and cheaper. 12mp covers all my current work commitments, if I still have clients who have money to spend. New clients are getting a bit of a liability, a friend who has a largish commercial studio is finding it increasingly hard to get payments in.
    There's a big Nikon do in London next week Solutions Expo at Olympia. I will go if I have a day to waste, but prefer NPS days.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
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    Are headphones and handsfree set included, or do I have to buy those extra?

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Some interesting D3x samples - with new 50/1.4 AFS

    http://www.studioimpressionsphotogra...sample-images/

    Naturally, the various forums have everyones knickers in full wedgie-mode 'debating' the obvious inherent superiority of X vs. Y vs. any camera or MFDB ever made, currently being made or even planning on being made by anyone; why Nikon didn't have a 2:1 sale on the D3x, etc., etc.

    God, we humans are nothing if not (sadly) predictable in our ability,as a whole, to make idiots of ourselves at the drop of a hat.
    Nice samples folks, a bit small to really judge anything.

    BUT if I can judge something from these samples than it is that they are not better than the results coming from a 1DSM3 - sorry! So we had studio quality already since 2 years with the 1DSM3, plus there are really nice primes for studio work from Canon. Why does Nikon now run the advertising mill and cry out loud that they have reinvented studio photography with the D3X ?????

    And why did it take Nikon 2 more years than Canon to come up to this same level (if it is the same level without the missing primes at all)?

    And why did they NOT do their homework and make the D3X really suited for PRO needs - like missing senor clean?

    And why - sorry to repeat again, but this is the most sucking in the whole Nikon story for me - do they still have no range of fast primes?

    Come on Nikon - you could do really better and finally get your act together
    Last edited by ptomsu; 1st December 2008 at 21:42.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Nice samples folks, a bit small to really judge anything.

    BUT if I can judge something from these samples than it is that they are not better than the results coming from a 1DSM3 - sorry!

    So why did it take Nikon 2 more years than Canon to come up to this level?

    And why did they NOT do their homework and make the D3X really suited for PRO needs - like missing senor clean?

    And why do they still have no range of fast primes?

    Come on Nikon - you could do really better
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Nobody has questioned the abilities of the 1DsIII, and Canon is a leading sensor manufacturer still. The two cameras are priced at the same level, and will probably render photos of similar quality, everything else being equal.

    The Canon, which was launched on 20 August 2007, doesn't have sensor cleaning either as far as I know, even though the technology had been known for many years. Expecting the D3x to be revolutionary better 15 months later would be a bit optimistic.

    I think we can agree on the missing primes, but that doesn't make the D3x any better or worse. Each system has its limitations, and good photographers learn to live with them.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    My guess is that Nikon is testing the waters with the pricing on the D3x. Tooling costs have already been recovered in the D3 production run, and while it's expensive to set up a sensor chip manufacturing run it certainly doesn't carry $3K of cost to retail. The margin must be huge.

    Of course, this goes for Canon as well. For that reason I think we'll see some price competition between Nikon and Canon over the next six months, once initial demand has been saturated.

    I'd venture a guess that the price gap between D3 and D3X will come down to $1K before end of Q2. Add to that some additional price pressure on the D3 to keep it below $4K and you are looking at a D3x price under $5K next summer.

    Oh yeah - we'll see a D3s in the spring, carrying over improvements made in D3x.

    Pure speculation on my part - any counterpoints?
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The Canon, which was launched on 20 August 2007, doesn't have sensor cleaning either as far as I know, even though the technology had been known for many years. Expecting the D3x to be revolutionary better 15 months later would be a bit optimistic.
    In the video interview I linked to above, the Swedish Nikon rep commented on the lack of sensor cleaning in D3x - his view was that with the tolerances required for adjusting position of such a high-resolution sensor, shaking it around is not a good idea if you want long-term reliability, and it would be interesting to see how much service A900 and 5DII will require over time.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    David, I think it's a 35/1.8 not 1.4... and I saw no mention of the 135/1.8 being VR.

    As to the Rich man's Nikon @ $8,000. lots of luck on that one. Isn't that the same sensor as the A900 with Nikon's take on it? Duh, let me think about it ... $8,000. verses $3,000. No, wait, I already made that decision The 24.5 meg Sony+flash and 3 Zeiss lens sytem is about the same price as the D3X body alone ... and all the lenses are "VR" so to speak

    If the rumor mill presses the idea that the D3X will drop thousands in price in pretty short order, then it'll become a self-fulfilling prophecy because no one will buy the camera @ $8,000.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    In the video interview I linked to above, the Swedish Nikon rep commented on the lack of sensor cleaning in D3x - his view was that with the tolerances required for adjusting position of such a high-resolution sensor, shaking it around is not a good idea if you want long-term reliability, and it would be interesting to see how much service A900 and 5DII will require over time.
    Lars,
    It's not the sensor that shakes, but the filter in front of it. For in-body IS, the sensor obviously has to move.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    In the video interview I linked to above, the Swedish Nikon rep commented on the lack of sensor cleaning in D3x - his view was that with the tolerances required for adjusting position of such a high-resolution sensor, shaking it around is not a good idea if you want long-term reliability, and it would be interesting to see how much service A900 and 5DII will require over time.

    Tell that to Sony who put a bleeding VR system on the same resolution and sized chip!

    Reminds me of the canon exec who said that they didn't need a new focusing system in the 5D as there had been no complaints about the old one.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Lars,
    It's not the sensor that shakes, but the filter in front of it. For in-body IS, the sensor obviously has to move.
    Hmm did I mix up IS and VR?
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Are headphones and handsfree set included, or do I have to buy those extra?
    C'mon Jurgen - this is Sony, even if it doesn't look like it!

    Mind you, the handsfree set is worth the extra few quid.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Hmm did I mix up IS and VR?
    Possibly. I had that worry before I bought the E-1, but was assured that the sensor didn't move. That has changed on later models of course.

    It was argued until recently that in-body IS wasn't possible with an FF sensor, but Sony has proven that to be a myth as well. Now, I'm just waiting for them to prove that an MP3-player and SIM-card slot are obvious features on pro cameras.

    Actually, I'm only halfway joking. With 3G speed, continuous uploading of photos to remote servers would be possible. That would mean that pj's could operate more independently but still stay online with editorial staff at home. From what I've heard, 2Mb/s will be available on the mobile net next year, even in this remote part of the universe.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Nobody has questioned the abilities of the 1DsIII, and Canon is a leading sensor manufacturer still. The two cameras are priced at the same level, and will probably render photos of similar quality, everything else being equal.

    The Canon, which was launched on 20 August 2007, doesn't have sensor cleaning either as far as I know, even though the technology had been known for many years. Expecting the D3x to be revolutionary better 15 months later would be a bit optimistic.

    I think we can agree on the missing primes, but that doesn't make the D3x any better or worse. Each system has its limitations, and good photographers learn to live with them.
    What I am trying to say is very simple:

    Nikon is slow in development and even the long time they take to come up with somehow decent products does not help to really improve over the competition. And BTW - you really should look into Canon documents, then you would know that the 1DSM3 has sensor cleaning. And this since over a year already!

    I shoot with a D3 myself and while this camera was a real milestone, I expected the D3X to bring at least similar improvements after this year of development. But obviously Nikon is hitting the wall with their digital technology again. Canon is already far ahead.

    Take it as you like - I am no longer convinced of Nikon becoming the leader again.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Take it as you like - I am no longer convinced of Nikon becoming the leader again.
    Leader in what? Small format digital cameras? There is so much diversity and so many choices.

    No one is a "leader". If one is stuck with one brand of camera/system they are the ones lagging behind.

    If you have money invested in Nikon/Canon/Mamiya stocks then the problem is even more serious!

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I think the prices will come down to below $5,000 in a few months.

    Sony is becoming more and more attractive.
    Have to say given the size and price it certainly is. As someone mentioned though the biggering and postering lives on and pretty funny to read some of chest pumping going on in other forums. The bottom line for me as I see these things hits the streets there still avoiding what 35mm DSLR's need more than anything is improvements in the glass and not really being addressed by Canon and Nikon directly. Sony on the other hand with the Zeiss glass is refreshing. Funny how Zeiss is making glass for the Nikons and Canons now obviously some of these companies have been sleeping.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    What I am trying to say is very simple:

    Nikon is slow in development and even the long time they take to come up with somehow decent products does not help to really improve over the competition. And BTW - you really should look into Canon documents, then you would know that the 1DSM3 has sensor cleaning. And this since over a year already!

    I shoot with a D3 myself and while this camera was a real milestone, I expected the D3X to bring at least similar improvements after this year of development. But obviously Nikon is hitting the wall with their digital technology again. Canon is already far ahead.

    Take it as you like - I am no longer convinced of Nikon becoming the leader again.
    Ok, I've watched the video, so the 1DsIII apparently has dust removal. Just four years after the Olympus E-1. I also found that the Mark III has ISO in the viewfinder, as opposed to the Mark II, something I believe pro Nikon cameras have had since the D2H in 2003 (this according to dpreview).

    We can discuss features of camera bodies for weeks without getting anywhere, and it doesn't really matter. I'm sure I can take the same photos with any of these two. Lenses, on the other hand...

    The one camera that really stands out, is the A900. It has all the megapixels, sensor cleaning and in-body IS, all for well under half the price of either the Nikon or the Canon, and it mounts Zeiss AF-glass, zooms as well as primes.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    The one camera that really stands out, is the A900. It has all the megapixels, sensor cleaning and in-body IS, all for well under half the price of either the Nikon or the Canon, and it mounts Zeiss AF-glass, zooms as well as primes.
    I think Peter is about to throw the Canon 5DMkII gauntlet at your feet

    Still, even that isn't a walkman

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Never been a walkman fan myself, but if it delivers what you want...

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Never been a walkman fan myself, but if it delivers what you want...
    No Rob
    Nor have I - the 'walkman' jibe is from Jurgen.
    Truth is that I'm not fond of any other Sony 'tech'. But this is so 'unSony' as to be hard to believe.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I think Peter is about to throw the Canon 5DMkII gauntlet at your feet

    Still, even that isn't a walkman
    I actually consider buying a 5D or 5DII to use with my OM-lenses, but no Canon glass. But then, I've been considering that since the 5D was launched. Canon users seem to love that camera for its image quality, while others hate it for the ergonomics. A digital OM would be better, but alas...

    I actually have a Walkman, a real one. It's a Walkman Professional, with stereo mike and all the gadgets. Unfortunately, it doesn't work properly

    It doesn't mount Zeiss lenses either.... what on earth were they thinking

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Apparently Nikon confirmed that the D3x sensor is a Nikon design manufactured in a Sony plant:

    "At the launch, Nikon officials were at pains to point out that although the D3X's sensor is manufactured in a Sony plant, it's still very much "a Nikon designed sensor". Indeed, their respective pixel pitches are quite different: 5.9 microns on the A900, whereas the Nikon's is surprisingly smaller at 5.49 microns. So, they're pretty much different sensors and should have different performance characteristics."

    http://www.cnet.com.au/digitalcamera...9293606,00.htm
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Apparently Nikon confirmed that the D3x sensor is a Nikon design manufactured in a Sony plant:

    "At the launch, Nikon officials were at pains to point out that although the D3X's sensor is manufactured in a Sony plant, it's still very much "a Nikon designed sensor". Indeed, their respective pixel pitches are quite different: 5.9 microns on the A900, whereas the Nikon's is surprisingly smaller at 5.49 microns. So, they're pretty much different sensors and should have different performance characteristics."

    http://www.cnet.com.au/digitalcamera...9293606,00.htm
    HI Lars
    It's difficult isn't it - we have so much information!
    Thom Hogan:
    Thom Hogans D3x comments

    Says that the photosite size being the same, they must be based on the same sensor.

    Also - pixel pitch is a simple function of the size of the sensor and the number of photosites (unlike photosite size). How can the Nikon pixel pitch be significantly smaller on the same size sensor with slightly less pixels?

    Don't make sense to me!

    Still, isn't all this irrelevant, there are things we know - there is no doubt that even if the data is collected in the same kind of buckets, the image quality will be pretty different.

    I'm not sure that anything else is very relevant

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'm not sure that anything else is very relevant
    Yep we have to wait for that pudding that the proof supposedly is in.

    BTW Thom's analysis was interesting reading.
    Last edited by Lars; 2nd December 2008 at 11:48.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Says that the photosite size being the same, they must be based on the same sensor.

    Also - pixel pitch is a simple function of the size of the sensor and the number of photosites (unlike photosite size). How can the Nikon pixel pitch be significantly smaller on the same size sensor with slightly less pixels?

    Don't make sense to me!

    Correct me if I am wrong, but can't the difference be in the distance between the photosites? I thought that was one of the way that medium format makers were making larger chips -- they were keeping the size of the photosites, but pushing them closer together, so that they can have more pixels with the same light gathering ability. Perhaps the Sony's pixels are closer together.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Says that the photosite size being the same, they must be based on the same sensor.

    Also - pixel pitch is a simple function of the size of the sensor and the number of photosites (unlike photosite size). How can the Nikon pixel pitch be significantly smaller on the same size sensor with slightly less pixels?
    This applies only in the case of a CCD where the active photo site is not surrounded by electronic circuitary (as in the case of a CMOS sensor).

    Sony made some big advances in making their CMOS sensors (starting with the D300 sensor). So, their photosite size is less affected.

    Stuart, Your thinking is correct but the CCD-CMOS design differences are at play.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    According to robgalbraith.com Nikon corrected its statement re sensor pitch, to be the same as that of the A900:

    "Update, December 1, 2008: Nikon USA has now issued a correction to the pixel pitch specification, restating it as 5.94m."

    http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/mul...id=7-9318-9761
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    JS,

    Hi. I guess I'd have to actually play with one (around here - har, har) and see the files for myself to start to be a believer. So far, what I've seen file wise has yet to impress. The lens prices (unless they've dropped a LOT lately) haven't exactly rocked my world either.

    It may be un-Sony (thankfully), but they still had to go and bolt a MS slot on the thing.....;>


    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    No Rob
    Nor have I - the 'walkman' jibe is from Jurgen.
    Truth is that I'm not fond of any other Sony 'tech'. But this is so 'unSony' as to be hard to believe.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but can't the difference be in the distance between the photosites? I thought that was one of the way that medium format makers were making larger chips -- they were keeping the size of the photosites, but pushing them closer together, so that they can have more pixels with the same light gathering ability. Perhaps the Sony's pixels are closer together.
    Hi Stuart
    I think you're wrong . . . . . .

    Seriously I thought the pixel 'pitch' was the difference between the centre of one photosite and the centre of the next - pushing them closer together in these terms would make for more pixels . . . and the Nikon and Sony have the same.

    Pixel 'size' I grant you can vary a lot for the same pixel 'pitch' . . . but it was pitch they were claiming for . . . and apparently it was a load of old bollocks anyway

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    No Rob
    Nor have I - the 'walkman' jibe is from Jurgen.
    Truth is that I'm not fond of any other Sony 'tech'. But this is so 'unSony' as to be hard to believe.
    Maybe I should start calling things by their real name
    Minolta A900, wasn't it

    I actually tried the A900 for the first time last week, and I agree, it seems very unSony indeed. Not at all the feeling of general electronics gear that I had feared, except the on/off switch. Why can't all camera manufacturers copy Nikon's on/off switch It's so totally superior

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Maybe I should start calling things by their real name
    Minolta A900, wasn't it
    That's the one! You keep on calling things just as you do. Levity (taking the piss) is definitely required in such gear discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I actually tried the A900 for the first time last week, and I agree, it seems very unSony indeed. Not at all the feeling of general electronics gear that I had feared, except the on/off switch. Why can't all camera manufacturers copy Nikon's on/off switch It's so totally superior
    I don't mind the switch . . . I just wish everyone would put them in the same place!

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    According to robgalbraith.com Nikon corrected its statement re sensor pitch, to be the same as that of the A900:

    "Update, December 1, 2008: Nikon USA has now issued a correction to the pixel pitch specification, restating it as 5.94m."

    http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/mul...id=7-9318-9761
    That sounds more like it.

    I wonder what the differences are in Nikon's take on the 24.5 meg sensor compared to the Sony? Claimed ISO range is different. Again, I wonder if the filter in the Nikon is less aggressive, and they limited the ISO range a bit because of noise? That could provide interesting performance in terms of IQ. IMO, it better for 8K.

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    I have the impression that Nikon has prioritized IQ (and that they probably are about 6-9 months overdue on the announcement for that reason).

    Notably:

    Nikon's sensor has A/D converter on the sensor, supposedly this will reduce noise as the path for the analog signal is shorter.

    Sony uses 12-bit A/D converter whereas Nikon uses 14-bit.

    As for the AA/lowpass filter and/or microlenses, it seems clear that Sony and Nikon products differ. Nikon does point out that the filter in the D3x is not the same as in earlier cameras. Either this is pure marketing, or there is some substance to it.

    Once again, the proof is in the pudding. Speculating is fun but we'll have to wait for critical reviews and comparisons.



    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I wonder what the differences are in Nikon's take on the 24.5 meg sensor compared to the Sony? Claimed ISO range is different. Again, I wonder if the filter in the Nikon is less aggressive, and they limited the ISO range a bit because of noise? That could provide interesting performance in terms of IQ. IMO, it better for 8K.
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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I don't mind the switch . . . I just wish everyone would put them in the same place!
    Yes, something like that. The one on the OM-1 was very easy to find

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    Re: D3x likely official next week

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    ..

    The one camera that really stands out, is the A900. It has all the megapixels, sensor cleaning and in-body IS, all for well under half the price of either the Nikon or the Canon, and it mounts Zeiss AF-glass, zooms as well as primes.
    I agree, but it lacks live view, and for me, that rules the Sony out, I'm afraid. That's the single serious omission with this body IMO. Strange really.

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