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Thread: Digital Nikon FM2

  1. #351
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    This camera is a disappointment to me, not that it matter to anyone. What I was hoping for was a small lightweight Nikon F mount camera. That would have given anyone, including Sony or Panasonic a run for their money.

    I hate to burst anyone's bubble but manual controls for iso and compensation? Why on earth would you invent a thumb wheel to control such things if manual dials were such a good idea?

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Sony definitely stole Nikon's thunder on this one - lighter, cheaper and can do VIDEO! LOL! I will await Canon's answer to a lightweight full frame digital camera.......Full frame Rebel perhaps? Canon can revolutionize this segment again by pricing it below $1000 - create the same buzz when the 1st digital Rebel was introduced.

  3. #353
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    DXO rating for D4 sensor - 89, vs 95 for Sony A7r. Not that Nikon should be paying attention but I'm just sayin'........ price should be lowered! $1600 max.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by roanjoh View Post
    ........ price should be lowered! $1600 max.
    The DF is made in Japan!

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    for me, there's just something off about the design. height, proportion, width, something.

    the price is absurd, imo. i wouldn't have been shocked at 2250 and 2500 for the kit. but i wouldn't have rushed out to buy one either.

    i'm sure the d4 sensor is lovely...but i'd have preferred the d610 sensor, or whatever sony crammed in the a7 or a7r. newer technology is always improving.

    the whole thing seems "cute".

    i see two options that i would have WAY preferred.

    1) a body that actually handles like an F3. split prism screen with modern overlays to show AF point/settings/etc. let the sensor do the focusing and metering. still F mount. really just updating a classic body to modern performance.

    2) stick an a7(r) in a body that handles similarly to an F3, with real buttons and dials. include an "all the bells and whistles" F adapter in the box and move forward with a mirrorless lens series. implement split prism focusing similarly to how Fuji has and give it focus peaking. give it the retro vibe, classic handling, and let it be a technological marvel inside.

    *shrug*
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Well said.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The DF is made in Japan!

    Oh?! In that case, the price is just right.......... It's $3000 short of "Made in Germany".

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by bmacw View Post
    Well said.


  9. #359
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by bmacw View Post
    Well said.

    Must be good then. Any midlife crisis dad not trying to be cool on his kids' Facebook wall is like watching a broken FM2 with no film in it

  10. #360
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Holiday spirit, anyone? 'Cause this thread sure looks like a wish list.
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  11. #361
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by white.elephant View Post
    Well, I'm not going to judge the good or bad (I would have preferred a split-prism, but oh well). My question is this: what changed in the way they handled their internal focussing screens between the D700 (where you CAN get a Katzeye) and now (when you can't)?

    I just would like to understand the differences.
    This is an interesting question, actually. Officially, no Nikon cameras after the D2Xs and F6 have exchangeable focusing screens. Still, it's possible to change them on some (all?) models, for "servicing purposes", but Nikon don't offer any. Of the FX cameras, Katzeye only offer one screen for the D700. However, Focusing Screen also offer screens for the D600, D800 and D3/s/X. It's not 100% clear from the Focusing Screen website if there are any side effects or what they are. What I've heard from other sources is that these screens are actually modified F6 screens, while the D700 screen from Katzeye is purpose made for that camera and thus more expensive (F6 screens are very cheap).

    Here's the instruction on how to change screens on the D800:
    NIKON D800 D600 Focusing Screen Installation Instruction

    There was a rather fierce debate about this subject on FM when the Canon 7D was launched, also officially without the option to change screens. The reason stated then was that the focusing screen on that and most other current cameras is an integrated part of the camera's viewfinder and that visible focusing points/lights etc. would not work with exchangeable screens since it was all interconnected. This has later been proven not to be true, and Katzeye sell a whole series of focusing screens for the 7D, stating clearly on their website that no functionality will be lost.

    With all this in mind, I would be surprised if there isn't a third party solution for the Df coming up as well.

    The only plausible reasons I can see for this policy from the camera makers are:

    - It's more expensive to manufacture a camera that includes a user friendly way of changing screens, and since the solutions chosen are not user friendly, Canikon can hide behind the "not possible to change" clause if there are complaints or damaged cameras.

    - Some screens, notably those with split screen, will cause spot metering from the central metering point to be off with around -2EV, sometimes more. Again, camera makers don't want complaints from thousands of users returning their cameras because the metering is off.

    To me, this is a very sad development. Although automation is fine, and what most photographers are looking for, manual operation of cameras is something that adds to the photography experience for tens of thousands of photographers. I also find it puzzling to say the least, that what was indeed possible and seemingly very simple on the Nikon F6, is suddenly difficult or even impossible on more resent cameras. For the F6, with a production of 100 camera bodies per year, Nikon keep 7 different focusing screen in stock. For the Pure Photography Df, there will apparently be one or none

  12. #362
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Jorgen, is a good split/prism focusing screen accurate enough to get exact focus down to the pixel level? Perhaps that's a consideration in the manufacturers' decisions not to provide screens suitable for manual focus.
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Jorgen, is a good split/prism focusing screen accurate enough to get exact focus down to the pixel level? Perhaps that's a consideration in the manufacturers' decisions not to provide screens suitable for manual focus.
    Probably not with a 36MP camera, but 16MP isn't too far from Velvia and other high resolution films that many of us used a decade or two ago, and I didn't have any problems getting my photos properly focused then. But even if a split screen isn't exact enough for accurate focus on a high MP camera, it's still much better than today's standard screens, and people do use manual focus lenses. Actually, some of the best lenses available, not least for Nikon cameras, are manual focus lenses. Like the Otus

    When that is said, there has been an increasing emphasis on technical perfection since the dawn of digital photography, and it is possible that many of us didn't expect photos to be as sharp and detailed during the film days as seems to be the norm now. For me, this has turned out to become a dilemma, and that annoys me ever so slightly. It shouldn't be.

    Edit: I read a few user reports from photographers who have installed the Katzeye screen on the D700. They are almost without exception very positive.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Jorgen, is a good split/prism focusing screen accurate enough to get exact focus down to the pixel level? Perhaps that's a consideration in the manufacturers' decisions not to provide screens suitable for manual focus.
    I might add to Jorgen's response that it is highly dubious that AF achieves that level of focus precision either...

    Doug

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Here are some nice, commercial and probably paid for, statements about the Df:

    Joe McNally, Lynn Goldsmith and Bob Krist on Shooting with the Nikon Df

    Despite the focusing screen I will most likely buy the Df. I can't afford it now, but hopefully some time next year. I think it's a beautiful camera, the ergonomics seem to be to my taste, it contains my favourite sensor and 16MP is to me the ideal file size.
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Despite the focusing screen I will most likely buy the Df. I can't afford it now, but hopefully some time next year. I think it's a beautiful camera, the ergonomics seem to be to my taste, it contains my favourite sensor and 16MP is to me the ideal file size.
    I know that I'm going to use Zeiss glass on my DF (when I get one) and at my age, I need more help than what a confirmation light gives me. So, hence my question about 3rd party screens.

    I really like the camera for all the reasons you've listed. Honestly, while I respect everyone's opinion here, I think the camera ticks MOST of the boxes it promised in the videos.

    Mine's pre-ordered.
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Nikon seem to take things seriously this time. They have a survey online:

    https://webc.nikonimaging.com/form/pub/info/df_en

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang;

    When that is said, there has been an increasing emphasis on technical perfection since the dawn of digital photography, and it is possible that many of us didn't expect photos to be as sharp and detailed during the film days as seems to be the norm now. For me, this has turned out to become a dilemma, and that annoys me ever so slightly. It shouldn't be.
    I think this brings up really interesting issues. It seems to me that whereas AF was pretty much universally used at the start of the century, it's become more usual to use manual focus, especially with really good lenses.
    I quite agree Jorgen that we now expect cameras to be sharper and more detailed. The irony here is that it really is easier to manually focus a lense with one of the new BIG EVFs rather than any optical viewfinder (with the possible exception of a rangefinder)..... So maybe the Sony A7r really is the sensible answer for those lovely Zeiss lenses.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Filled out the questionaire!


    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Nikon seem to take things seriously this time. They have a survey online:

    https://webc.nikonimaging.com/form/pub/info/df_en


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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    So maybe the Sony A7r really is the sensible answer for those lovely Zeiss lenses.
    You are probably right, but there's more to this than sensible thinking. I change between optical and electronic viewfinders not so much because one is better or more suitable for a task than the other, but because they make me look upon a scene in a different way. I'm sure that the resulting photo will be different as well. The road that takes me to the image will often influence how I interpret the scenery at my destination.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    You are probably right, but there's more to this than sensible thinking. I change between optical and electronic viewfinders not so much because one is better or more suitable for a task than the other, but because they make me look upon a scene in a different way. I'm sure that the resulting photo will be different as well. The road that takes me to the image will often influence how I interpret the scenery at my destination.
    Oh! I couldn't agree more - currently I'm shooting E-M1 and M9 - different in every way, and they lead to different results. I was (and still am) interested in Nikon for this very reason . . . . . but worried a bit about it's usefulness in manual focusing - I don't need another AF machine to use with zooms (the E-M1 does it very well, with quality zooms at a reasonable size).

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Bit puzzled by the negative sentiments here seemingly outnumbering the positive ones.

    I am thrilled by the specs on this camera. The user interface matters a lot to me. Look at that top plate: crammed with analogue dials, dials, dials!

    I think that with this design direction, Nikon have been strongly influenced with what Fuji has been doing with their successful X series...they took that ball and ran even further with it! Hurray, I say; let that be the way forward in camera design. My Canon 5DII has all the charm and attractiveness of a TV remote control. My Mamiya 645AFD's design falls somewhere in between; the later Mamiyas from AFDII to DF+ are progressively worse, more Canon-like. People talk about Olympus doing retro well, but I disagree: their Pen and OM-D bodies are still all fiddly Canon-esque buttons.

    Everyone is saying that in appearance it's very like the FE2/FM2/F3, but to me, with the PASM exposure mode dial and the drive-mode dial on top, and the focus mode switch on the front, it's functionally a lot more like the exquisitely designed F4. All it's missing really is the F4's interchangeable viewfinders and focus screens...I'd settle for a tilting LCD screen instead, but they didn't go for that either, pity.

    So for me it's not perfect, but it's the most appealing Nikon since the F4 or F5, and definitely the most appealing thing they've ever produced in digital.

    Ray
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I think this brings up really interesting issues. It seems to me that whereas AF was pretty much universally used at the start of the century, it's become more usual to use manual focus, especially with really good lenses.
    I quite agree Jorgen that we now expect cameras to be sharper and more detailed. The irony here is that it really is easier to manually focus a lense with one of the new BIG EVFs rather than any optical viewfinder (with the possible exception of a rangefinder)..... So maybe the Sony A7r really is the sensible answer for those lovely Zeiss lenses.
    Jono, I think there are 2 "problems":
    1) There are not soo many AF-lenses which are up to the high resolution of Nikon/Canon/Sony sensors with 24/36MP. Therefore many people start using ZEISS or Leica or CV or other third party lenses, which are mostly NOT available as AF-version. I don't think people buy MF-lenses because they prefer MF, but because those lenses are not available in AF.
    2) Lens quality control and many AF-systems (not all) seem not to be up to the task to focus very accurate. And a good manual focus is better than a bad AF.

    But is the solution that we do have go back to manual focus and to be forced to use EVF?
    EVF-for those who prefer it (and there seem to be quite many) - fine.
    But there also seem to be many who prefer OVF, who do not like to have a delay and who want to see the subject in the color and light how it looks for our eyes.

    I think the camera brands should focus to offer more high quality AF-lenses, and the everybody is free to focus manually or automatic, and to use EVF or OVF.

  24. #374
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post

    I hate to burst anyone's bubble but manual controls for iso and compensation? Why on earth would you invent a thumb wheel to control such things if manual dials were such a good idea?
    Why? Cost reduction. Why is a tablet so much cheaper than a laptop? Anything you can migrate from multiple mechanical moving parts to single or no moving parts is cheaper to produce.

    Also, modernist design trends from the mid-80s - "thumbwheels are new and therefore better; consumers won't want to buy stuff with those old-fashioned looking dials anymore!".

    Ray
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Important point here and always has been the case as much as everyone thinks AF is the greatest thing since sliced bread it really is only good as the operator behind the camera to make sure it is actually doing the job. The camera is guessing at it as well. Its easily fooled and from my seat never to be trusted. Seriously when money is on the line I'm in manual mode.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    HI There Tom
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    But is the solution that we do have go back to manual focus and to be forced to use EVF?
    EVF-for those who prefer it (and there seem to be quite many) - fine.
    But there also seem to be many who prefer OVF, who do not like to have a delay and who want to see the subject in the color and light how it looks for our eyes.

    I think the camera brands should focus to offer more high quality AF-lenses, and the everybody is free to focus manually or automatic, and to use EVF or OVF.
    Well, I think there is always going to be an issue with AF and SLR cameras, in that the calibration must match the lens - hence so many cameras having an option to fine tune focusing - of course you don't need this on an EVF

    Added to which, AF is decides what to focus on - often it's right, sometimes it's wrong (even using spot).


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Important point here and always has been the case as much as everyone thinks AF is the greatest thing since sliced bread it really is only good as the operator behind the camera to make sure it is actually doing the job. The camera is guessing at it as well. Its easily fooled and from my seat never to be trusted. Seriously when money is on the line I'm in manual mode.

    I quite agree Guy - like you, when it's critical, I'm with manual focus. Except that I think that the trouble with AF is that it is really only as good as the camera . . . not the operator - which is where it's problem lies. When AF can read your mind, it'll be all good!
    Last edited by jonoslack; 6th November 2013 at 05:51.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post

    Look at that top plate: crammed ...........


    Ray
    For me that's one of this camera's problems,
    I was hoping it would be as Nikon marketing-speak
    lead me to believe - 'Pure'.

    Ian.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Does anyone know what the viewfinder info is like? I'm assuming the same difficult to read (for me at least) LCD along the bottom as it has been since the F5. I wouldn't necessarily welcome a return to the match needle, but some sort of elegant hybrid solution would have been nice, though since it hasn't been highlighted in any of the reviews or the Nikon site I'm figuring it's same as d600.

    I like the black version of this camera, but think I will wait a year or so until refurb/used/price drops happen.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    The longer I look at this camera, the more I do not understand why NO VIDEO. Meanwhile the Df has so many controls that it is really crammed, so adding the 2 more or so necessary for video would not have made a difference.

    I think that it could have been pure as well - if you do not want to use video, just don't!

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Took the survey - hopefully Nikon listens and produces a better version of this product line in the future.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    I was travelling all day and haven't caught up on all this… curious about the "silent shutter" mode… does anyone have more info?

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    I am always an SLR guy, shooting a an SLR from the age of 10....so DF is a dream camera for me...retro look, D4 sensor etc etc....
    However, the size and weight do not feel right...It is much larger than my FM2s...

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    I think Nikon were aiming more for an F3 feel than an FM/FE (which I fondly used back in the late eighties/early nineties). Unfortunately I think size wise the closest one will get to a full frame FM size is the new Sony, a camera that leaves me colder than cold to say the least.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Bit puzzled by the negative sentiments here seemingly outnumbering the positive ones.
    Twenty seven hundred US dollars.

    If it were two grand it would still be somewhat stingy.

    I am thrilled by the specs on this camera. The user interface matters a lot to me. Look at that top plate: crammed with analogue dials, dials, dials!
    That you need to lift or press a pin to rotate. PASM dial is redundant. Exposure comp is on the left side. shiggy diggy doo.

    I think that with this design direction, Nikon have been strongly influenced with what Fuji has been doing with their successful X series...they took that ball and ran even further with it! Hurray, I say; let that be the way forward in camera design. My Canon 5DII has all the charm and attractiveness of a TV remote control. My Mamiya 645AFD's design falls somewhere in between; the later Mamiyas from AFDII to DF+ are progressively worse, more Canon-like. People talk about Olympus doing retro well, but I disagree: their Pen and OM-D bodies are still all fiddly Canon-esque buttons.
    If it gets the shot, I don't mind any kind of control layout, it simply has to be laid out well, whether the focus is on automation or direct control.

    So for me it's not perfect, but it's the most appealing Nikon since the F4 or F5, and definitely the most appealing thing they've ever produced in digital.
    Interesting, if this is the most appealing Nikon, then I no longer have to wonder why I never got into using one.

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    Digital Nikon FM2


    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post

    Bit puzzled by the negative sentiments here seemingly outnumbering the positive ones.

    I am thrilled by the specs on this camera. The user interface matters a lot to me. Look at that top plate: crammed with analogue dials, dials, dials!

    I think that with this design direction, Nikon have been strongly influenced with what Fuji has been doing with their successful X series...they took that ball and ran even further with it! Hurray, I say; let that be the way forward in camera design. My Canon 5DII has all the charm and attractiveness of a TV remote control. My Mamiya 645AFD's design falls somewhere in between; the later Mamiyas from AFDII to DF+ are progressively worse, more Canon-like. People talk about Olympus doing retro well, but I disagree: their Pen and OM-D bodies are still all fiddly Canon-esque buttons.

    Everyone is saying that in appearance it's very like the FE2/FM2/F3, but to me, with the PASM exposure mode dial and the drive-mode dial on top, and the focus mode switch on the front, it's functionally a lot more like the exquisitely designed F4. All it's missing really is the F4's interchangeable viewfinders and focus screens...I'd settle for a tilting LCD screen instead, but they didn't go for that either, pity.

    So for me it's not perfect, but it's the most appealing Nikon since the F4 or F5, and definitely the most appealing thing they've ever produced in digital.

    Ray

    For me it's simply the price, Ray.

    I do agree a lot with you. I also like the Df user interface with all these analogue dials. That's what I have been asking for, for years.

    And since my D800E has recently been stolen I am coincidentally right now in search for a replacement FX camera. Couldn't be better timing.

    So I also want that new Df camera, but definitely not at the announced price. No way.

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    Digital Nikon FM2


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post

    (...) Seriously, my guess is Nikon is going after an elite market with this one, a-la Leica. (...)

    I'm afraid you may very well have an important point here, Jack, at least if you mean economic elite market.

    In Denmark the Df retail price is now announced to be 24595 DKK (Danish Kroner). Which equals 4457 USD, or 2770 GBP, or 3297 EUR.

    For what is basically a retro-styled D610. It's a joke. And a very bad one.

    Could it be that in this new economy the competition parameters have changed totally ?

    Is it from now on all about selling prestigious luxury items wrapped in old and legendary history, aimed at the emerging markets ?

    The higher the price, the more prestige, is that the embarrassing logic ?

    And is Nikon now also entering that wagon, testing the waters with the Df ?

    Maybe it is about time to change to a brand without too much prestigious history

    I just want quality tools, not overpriced, prestigious luxury items.
    Last edited by Steen; 6th November 2013 at 09:23.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    While I was a bit apprehensive at first (I still think the pricing may be questionable), the more and more I read these posts about the Df the more and more intrigued I become. But not because I'm some 60 year old romantic nostalgic for a camera bristling with dials and metallic edges to teleport me back in time to Woodstock.

    From what I can tell (and what most would agree), the sensor is certainly top notch. When developing the D4 it was Nikon's decision to give folks a sensor with enough MP's for high caliber IQ over a wide range of ISO's. "But you can't make prints 40 x 60" like you can with a D800 or the new Sony A7r!!!" people cry. Seriously? How many actually make prints that size? (And if you do big-assed images for trade shows, billboards or lobby photos, you already know what's out there. And one of them is a Nikon.)

    According to another favorite site I like (Imaging Resource) who offer an opinion on the optimal image sizes you can expect from a camera at given ISO's it is quite good indeed. According to IR, from 100 - 800 ISO you can enjoy prints as large as 20 x 30. (In my experience, those sizes in a matted frame sell very well, thank you very much! Not too small. Not too expensive either. A photo buyer's sweet spot.) Cropping capability will also yield decent sized images. It's a good distance from 20 x 30 down to 13 x 19.

    And, coupled with a good fast lens, AF or MF, this could be quite the available light monster. Nikon has a number of prime AF primes for this sort of work (24mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 58mm f1.4, 85mm f1.4 for examples, not to mention their prized zooms) as well as others like Zeiss (take your pick here) and even Samyang/Rokinon (again take your pick here) in MF. The MF rangefinder confirm feature is quite good. (But I agree focus peaking on an EVF is waaaay better.)

    And while we're on the topic of low light, it includes Nikon's rather well executed 'quiet shutter' mode. Although the teaser videos suggested a more mechanical "schluckkk" on pressing the shutter (lag time 0.05s which ain't too shabby by the way) Nikon's quiet mode as evidenced by the D7000/D7100 and other recent models is quite good. Curtain one comes off like an M6 click. Curtain two, re-cocks moments later. On a busy street this would hardly raise an eyebrow. And even in a museum most guards would hardly come out of their standing power naps. The shutter is also pretty robust. Tested to 150K actuations? More than enough for me.

    Another factor I am considering is the file size. Let's be honest PROCESSING files produced by a 16 Mb sensor are going to be a LOT easier than processing files produced by 24 and 36 MB ones (and God knows what Canon's been rumored to come out with next year). I have a speedy computer and the enormous 45mb Foveon files my DP2 Merrill eventually creates really put it through a workout. Particularly when I do stitched Brenizer style shots or other composites. At times I could go see Hunger Games between processing. Twice.

    And speaking of processing, the thing comes with Nikon's rather nice Expeed 3 processor which has been working digital miracles on the D800, D4, D600 and, now, the D610. IMHO, Nikon's come up with an algorithm for turning digits into images that no one else seems to have been able to match. There's just SOMETHING about their images that seem more real in terms of grain and romanticized look that I don't see elsewhere.

    The body is built like a tank but isn't a tank like Nikon's typical DSLR offerings, thank GOD!. In fact, it's a little smaller and LIGHTER than Canon's 6D, a camera that I have been eyeing for a while as a way to move up to FF from my Sigma DP2 Merrill (which will probably remain my go-to camera for uber-detail at low ISO situations like landscapes and speedy snails.) I felt the Canon 6D was about the right size for a FF DSLR (the new Sony's not withstanding.) And while there is no grip currently available (and I'm not sure it may even need one) I'm sure someone like Really Right Stuff will probably craft something that would work. While not as small like an mFt rig or the new Sony's for me, it's big but not TOO big. I can live with that. (But I definitely prefer the black over the checkered-looking leatherette and shiny chrome.)

    Okay, there are a lot of buttons and dials on the thing. Admittedly I wish there were less. But it's not nearly as buttoned up as others. My only wish would be the ability to set ISO by direct menu as well as a dial. (That may be the case after all. Just haven't read anything about that possibility so far.)

    It's weather sealed. You can take it out for that once in a lifetime shot inside Yosemite Falls or Niagara. Or out during a Caribbean hurricane. ('nuff said.)

    The battery capacity is apparently superb. 1400 shots per charge? What's to complain about???

    OVF: 100% viewing at .7x magnification. While great strides have been made in EVF's (particularly with the Olympus flagship) this shares a view with the D800 and D4--which is pretty damned good. I'll get all the shading nuances I need.

    No video? Well..if I wanted a camera for video I'd get a Lumix GH3 or the upcoming GH4. (Again, 'nuff said.)

    No built-in flash. (Again, seriously? The thing can shoot at a stratospheric ISO 204,800. My guess is shooting BW at 25,200 to make a print at 20 x 30 won't be much of a problem.) I've never been a fan of those pop up things. In fact, one of the factors that had me considering the 6D was the fact that it didn't have a pop up flash. Sure it's nice to have but I'd rather avoid the I'm-at-a-party look. If I need to use a flash, I'll figure out some external means. Nikon has fantastic options as do soooo many others.

    Only one card slot? (Once again, seriously??? Have you seen the sizes of SD cards these days? Capacities are well into Giga land--128GB or 256Gb anyone? But, in all fairness, having two is a good feature for either grabbing separate jpg and Raw or filming epic movies of your kid's first tooth coming in.)

    Obviously everyone has different needs. But from what I'm seeing while at first I wasn't sure, now I'm not so sure I'm not so sure. And I genuinely like it.
    Last edited by peterb; 6th November 2013 at 09:09.
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    [rant]

    My fundamental problem with the Df is that you can't get a "pure photography" experience when you have both shutter/ISO/compensation dials as well as command e-dials. The design brief apparently said "make it work in fully automatic, electronic mode as our current customers are used to, but also with dedicated metal knobs as is expected of a retro camera," and given that requirement I think the design is great--but that dual purpose defeats any pretension of purity. A D800 in manual mode would feel more pure to me.

    Better would have been a camera designed for manual use as the first priority, with as much automation as possible without interfering with manual operation. I suspect the excellent autofocus and metering modules used by Nikon take enough of the TTL light to make ground-glass focusing screens unpleasantly dark. So, give me one highly accurate center point autofocus sensor, and a choice of spot or center-weighted metering--and a nice, bright viewfinder suitable for manually focusing even f/5.6 lenses.

    But that doesn't make sense unless the lenses are enjoyable to manually operate. Would it be possible to re-shell current lens designs, removing autofocus motors, making the focus throw longer with a focus scale to match, and adding an aperture ring? Some bits would need to be re-engineered, but not the optics. How much of a premium would I need to pay for an AI-S 14-24? 58/1.4?

    I shoot Leica R lenses and my favorite camera to use is the R7, though I use a NEX as a digital back when straight-to-pixel is called for. I think I'm squarely in the target audience for the Df: I like premium products designed to make the act of photography enjoyable as well as productive. But bolting retro knobs onto an e-dial camera does not make for purity of design nor experience. I was hopeful about the Df, even thinking about moving to F mount, but this camera missed the mark by a wide margin for me.

    [/rant]

    I'm glad this camera hit the target for some people, and I hope that you all enjoy the heck out of it!

    Cheers,
    Jon
    Last edited by JonPB; 6th November 2013 at 09:33. Reason: Typo.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Nikon seem to take things seriously this time. They have a survey online:

    https://webc.nikonimaging.com/form/pub/info/df_en

    Thanks, Jorgen. Kudos to Nikon at least for that. I've filled it out.
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    One must wonder, what percentage of this price is artificially fixed, like the V1 series. If Nikon strategically priced the camera at this price point independent of the production cost, then there is hope this camera would drop in price when Nikon better understands it's potential customer base for this camera.

  41. #391
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    My guess: Nikon is making the Df at a loss. Small series, lots of metal hardware, made in Japan. Production cost is probably closer to D4 than D800. Of course, if it turns out to be a huge success then unit cost for tooling will drop.
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  42. #392
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    My guess: Nikon is making the Df at a loss. Small series, lots of metal hardware, made in Japan. Production cost is probably closer to D4 than D800. Of course, if it turns out to be a huge success then unit cost for tooling will drop.
    I bet you they spent more money on the teasers on the whole than any new tooling.
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    My guess: Nikon is making the Df at a loss. Small series, lots of metal hardware, made in Japan. Production cost is probably closer to D4 than D800. Of course, if it turns out to be a huge success then unit cost for tooling will drop.
    My guess: this is like Nikon 1, another attempt to carve out a niche where they can raise margins. There are lots of cost-saving design decisions in the Df, beneath the cosmetic glitz.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Hands-on video from The Camera Store: Nikon Df Hands-On Preview - YouTube

    The end made me chuckle.

  45. #395
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Nikon's attempt to replace lost P&S revenues.

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Hands-on video from The Camera Store: Nikon Df Hands-On Preview - YouTube

    The end made me chuckle.
    +1 Jordan Drake

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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    The hands on video is a perfect representation of the discussion: the camera was not able to take photos, but who cares; it looks cool.
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    At first, I was really excited about the camera. Seeing the leaked picture of the body, seeing the controls. But realization crept in about it's size and weight, certainly compared to my FE bodies.

    I was hoping that the price would come in lower. If it had been $2,000-$2,500, I would have had less trouble buying one. At $2,750, its so close in price to a D800, I would rather get that since it would be more versatile.

    A lot of things would be tricky to shoot because of needing to take my eye off the viewfinder to adjust things. Sure, that may go away a bit after getting used to the dials and their "feel".

    Also to me, I would be using the Df like I used my FE bodies. A small bag and a few primes, as a walk around camera.

    I was thinking the same thing as Thom Hogan was, if they had done a 16MP DX version for $1,500-1,800, that would have sold well. Coupled with proper DX wide angle primes, it would have sold really well.
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Oren Grad View Post
    There are lots of cost-saving design decisions in the Df, beneath the cosmetic glitz.
    Like what?
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    Re: Digital Nikon FM2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Like what?
    Thom Hogan has laid these out clearly. Keep in mind that this is a camera aimed at hard-core photographers:

    * sensor
    * frame rate
    * AF system
    * slower shutter/flash sync
    * no 10-pin connector for pro accessories
    * no second card slot
    * low-end battery
    * no flash
    * no video

    To which I would add:

    * run-of-the-mill AF viewfinder which doesn't live up to the promise of "use all your old lenses"

    You can certainly argue about what functional compromises would be optimal in targeting this camera to the market. The choice that Nikon has made is to price it very near the D800 while stuffing it full of lesser parts.

    To elaborate on what I suggested earlier, this looks like an attempt to gain margin by selling a bundle of mostly cheaper parts (plus a few that do add cost - the extra knobs, the coupling lever) at a premium price.

    There's nothing illegal or immoral about that - it's just a bet on what the market will tolerate, whether the style factor addresses a sufficiently strong want on the part of enough buyers, to justify the premium. Only time will tell whether the bet will be successful.

    I think again of the Nikon 1 cameras. Those are impressive feats of production engineering - very inexpensive to manufacture compared to an SLR. But Nikon is asking SLR prices for them. Is the benefit of sort-of-like-SLR-performance-in-a-really-small-package enough to sustain that? The J1/V1 fire sale says no; time will tell whether stock of V2 and later S/J models needs to be sold off in the same way.

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