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Thread: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

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    Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Just out of curiosity I was looking at past news maker camera launches and I started wondering why only Nikon is getting beaten up for launching a full working proper camera ala DF.

    Okay DF may not be looking as cute/sexy as E-P1/X-Pro or as small as A7/R, but if you keep these emotional first impressions aside, I think DF even at its launch price is much better cam than mirror-less counterparts its trying to compete with. I am not comparing it with DSLRS as I think Nikon is trying to compete with mirror-less crowd


    Here are some examples I could think of:

    Olympus is ground breaking for overpriced E-P1 with no VF, SLOW AF, few lenses and noisy sensor (USP: Smallest, cutest and 2nd mirror-less in market after Panasonic G1)
    – Launch Price $999

    Well Fuji gets applauded for a quirky Beta product ala X-Pro1/X100 loaded with firmware bugs, sloooow AF and VF w/o diopter adjustment (USP: Dummy RF, EVF/OVF)
    – Launch Price - $1500

    Sony gets all the love for compact FF ala A7/R with slow AF, shutter vibrations launched with two lenses costing 2-3 times of their DSLR counterparts, with size as big as SLR lenses (USP: Sensor, Sensor, Sensor)
    – Launch Price - $1600/2300 with Native lenses $800 (vs $300+ of DSLR) and $999 (vs $100 of DSLR)

    Nikon launches a compact and lightest FF DSLR with nice 100% and big OVF, AF probably much better compared to any mirror-less, with industry leading clean Sensor, quality build magnesium body with shutter rated at 150K (?)
    - Launch Price $2500

    Are we too harsh on Nikon or expecting bit too much from a company which launched a genuine good product (compared to mirrorless category) or its just that "Pure Photography" campaign is at fault?

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    IMHO, the Df got hammered because it's pricepoint 'felt' too high to folks who wanted it.
    Jack
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Yes, somewhat similar to how people felt about the D3x when it came out too, even though historically it was pretty much a price match to Canon's then current bodies.

    Btw, I have a lot of respect for Fuji (admittedly as a user) since they continue to add functionality to their cameras and not just obsolete them every few months.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I think on some internet forums and blogs there is a certain hype for mirrorless and EVF cameras.
    Even though I also have used and still use mirrorless for some things (at the moment a GM-1 with 2 lenses) I have been surprized how much love the mirrorless cams get and how many people even replace their dslr with a mirrorless camera.
    I am not sure though if the "internet crowd" represents the real world. My camera dealer tells me he still sells much more medium size DSLRs than mirrorless cams.
    If I was a fan of Nikon color I would buy the DF immediatly.
    I also think some DX DSLRs are underrated, I really like the Pentax for example.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    The Df has a great low light sensor in a restyled D610 body. It's priced too high.

    I think it got hammered because the marketing campaign promised a return to "pure photography" and we were all hoping for an FM2 with a digital sensor. We got a repackaged D610.
    Brad Husick
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by sagar View Post
    Why is so much hatred...
    ...if you keep these emotional first impressions aside...
    ...expecting bit too much...
    With hatred being an emotion, and emotions frequently arising from expectations, whether founded or not, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The other cameras you mentioned had a lot of disappointment around them, too, but they started on the other curve of Mr. Cicla's graph.

    I think that Nikon's marketing tapped into a well of desire that many photographers in forums feel: the desire to rekindle the passion, excitement, and simple fun they had with photography in their first photo class. For me, that was with a Pentax K1000, a straightforward machine designed to let a controlled amount of light onto the film, but with few other features. I would have loved the Df if it had dropped autofocus in favor of a brighter viewfinder, and if it lost the thickness of the rear LCD and the battery power it requires--with possibly a small monochrome display, where the only chimping possible would be with a histogram. Basically, a late 1970's to early 1980's design with a digital sensor instead of film. Instead, the Df is a fully featured, fully automated stills camera with added knobs. When excitement comes from the idea that the new camera will have a simpler aesthetic, dropping video functionality and adding knobs on top of all the other controls is simply disappointing.

    Of course, if they released the camera that I want, very few other people would buy it--which is why there is no Leica R10. Or, if they released the camera with better integration of the knobs, a la Fuji's X series, then the camera's ergonomics would be substantially different from the other Nikon cameras and would turn off a large portion of their existing customers. The camera is designed the only way it can be given the company that makes it, and, given those limitations, it is very well designed.

    But the aspirational and mysterious tone of the pre-release ads gave each photographer the opportunity, even the prompt, to design their ideally simplified camera and expect all that and more from the Df. The camera as actually released could not be all of those things, causing disappointment and irrational negativity toward the product. Expectations for the cameras you compare it to were based on the actual hardware released, and in that way the expectations were reined in a bit closer to reality.

    Cheers,
    Jon

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I'm willing to take a Df that has disappointed its current owner! Silver or black. I'm not picky.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by segedi View Post
    I'm willing to take a Df that has disappointed its current owner! Silver or black. I'm not picky.
    Only problem for you is most Df owners aren't disappointed with them!

    Full disclosure: I own (a black) one, and I like it for what it is -- a D4 sensor in lightweight body with control layout similar enough to my D800 it doesn't require much thinking to use it. But I also think it is seriously overpriced for what it is. Price should be on the order of $2K for this sensor in a usable lightweight body without all the retro knicks and knobs. But then Nikon should offer the D610 with a central command button that magnifies to 100% review and they don't do that either. If and when they do either or both of the above, I'll probably buy it (or one of each if they do both) and sell my Df.

    Of course that assumes they don't release a 54MP D4XS that bins to 16MP with clean ISO 6400 and DX's to 36MP and does 12 FPS at any price
    Jack
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    People like to complain, and will do so about anything. The most annoying commonly heard bleating to me is "Damn them, they're going to fail because they didn't insert pet nonsensical detail here."

    I look at the Df and the sheer number of controls, dials, buttons, etc, seems a bit daunting to me, and it doesn't match the lovely simplicity of the Nikon F3 that I'd like to see in a digital camera. It seems big and clumsy in the photos. But I haven't had the chance to see or try one yet.

    G

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Don't worry, it's not big and clumsy in the flesh. The sensor makes it.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets) ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post

    IMHO, the Df got hammered because it's pricepoint 'felt' too high to folks who wanted it.

    Exactly, Jack !

    Where I live the Df is 24,600 DKK which equals 4,500 USD (incl. 1.8/50mm kit lens). I wouldn't designate that "nonsensical detail".

    So there's a reason why it has been in stock from day one. No backorders. No waiting lists. No sales.

    If I could get it with European warranty and all at more or less the same price as in the US I would buy it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately that's not the case.

    Instead I'll probably just go with a D600 / D610, it can be had at half the price (incl. a 1.8/50mm normal lens just for this price comparison) and with basically the same specifications.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I am not disappointed at all.
    It is my go-to informal camera.
    Frankly I think some of the new flashy objects without proper viewfinders are overpriced for what they are.
    -bob
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Frankly I think some of the new flashy objects without proper viewfinders are overpriced for what they are.
    -bob
    You sir, are an obvious $#!T disturber
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Of course that assumes they don't release a 54MP D4XS that bins to 16MP with clean ISO 6400 and DX's to 36MP and does 12 FPS at any price
    Yes please!!! Here Nikon, take my money!!!

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    The DF to me is too much money for what it is: a lifestyle accessory. If it did something extraordinary, new, or novel, or technically elevated the state of the art (D800E to me, YMMV) - the price would have been very low. I like toys and fun little gadgets as much as the next person, but... $3000?!

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets) ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post



    Exactly, Jack !

    Where I live the Df is 24,600 DKK which equals 4,500 USD (incl. 1.8/50mm kit lens). I wouldn't designate that "nonsensical detail".
    I must admit that at $4500 it's would really almost be in Hasselblad Lunar territory compared to the US pricing. I wouldn't have bought at that price level.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    People, unfortunately, like to bash cameras. You should feel lucky you did not want an RX-1.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I love my apparently ridiculously over-priced (so some will tell me) RX-1R
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I think there is an element of accuracy and truth in almost all the posts in this thread. Those that own the DF for the most part, love it for what it is. I said it in previous threads, I believe after sales of the Nikon D4 had settled down since its release, they now wanted to offer a scaled down D4 but not make the mistake of simply a smaller body camera that was otherwise identical to a D4 and its feature set at half the price that ultimately would cannibalize D4 sales. They made that mistake once with the D700 virtually halting D3 sales.

    On the other hand people have been clamoring for a FM2 like digital SLR. Nikon thought they could accomplish both goals in a single body. Namely a smaller D4 sensor based camera that was quite distinct from a D4 in that it had it's sensor but not its feature set while at the same time coming up with a pseudo retro DSLR. In essence kill two birds with one stone. Alternatively, maybe all they wanted was camera that could compete somewhat with other cameras known to be "street cameras" and instead of investing in a smaller mirror less new mount camera, simply came up with a smaller, lighter DLSR that sort of appeared to be FM2 like, with a manageable 16MP sensor, great for available light in the widest possible conditions.

    As many other have said, if it's price offering was closer to $2,000 , I think it would have garnished more accolades.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I might not be as in tune with the photo forum chatter as others are, but "hatred" seems like a pretty strong word and doesn't fit with the reactions I've heard from friends etc. about the Df.

    "Disappointed" that it didn't meet their expectations re "pure photography" and with the relatively high price is the reaction that I've been hearing...which mirrors my own thoughts about the Df.

    Gary

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I've been looking for something with excellent auto focus, great low light ability and a comfortable size for use on the street in fast moving situations.

    I deliberated between the most recent Nikon, Olympus and Sony offerings. I grabbed a DF because it most closely matched my requirements. In the end, if a camera works the way that you envision it will and enables you to get the results you were aiming to achieve, the internal debate about price and outlying features and benefits quickly fall by the wayside.

    After putting the camera through a few thousand shots on the streets over the past several weeks, I have to say that I love, love, love using it on the street.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    IMHO, the Df got hammered because it's pricepoint 'felt' too high to folks who wanted it.
    Exactly.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    All the rush to new cameras, like nobody would be caught dead wearing last year's Pradas.
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I feel the concept was a high aspiration that failed in the execution. Nikon can still fix this by implementing an all manual device. I believe most of us were pretty clear on what we wanted to see built. I suppose the bean-counters got in the way...
    I know many are satisfied with the Df. Good for you. I have seen some remarkable images posted on this site. No question the D4 sensor rules. I still intend to rent one to see for myself, but I'm not expecting a digital FM2 (which is what I want).

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Small FF cameras are hardly "emotional asides". Anyone lugging around a bag of bricks for 8 hours straight may have a different "emotional reaction" … actually, a physical reaction is more like it.

    That said, were I still toting Nikon stuff, I'd be interested in at least looking at the DF because of the sensor performance. But I'm in the USA where it seems priced a bit more reasonably.

    - Marc

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    I've been looking for something with excellent auto focus, great low light ability and a comfortable size for use on the street in fast moving situations.

    I deliberated between the most recent Nikon, Olympus and Sony offerings. I grabbed a DF because it most closely matched my requirements. In the end, if a camera works the way that you envision it will and enables you to get the results you were aiming to achieve, the internal debate about price and outlying features and benefits quickly fall by the wayside.

    After putting the camera through a few thousand shots on the streets over the past several weeks, I have to say that I love, love, love using it on the street.
    Kurt

    I am impressed by the results you are getting on the street with the Df …how much of the AF capability are you using ? I have a hard time getting beyond the straightforward ..spot focus ..but I think you can use some of the continuous focus and maybe facial recognition parts of the AF system .

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I finally had a chance to try it out. It's nice, and the pusher says he sells a lot of them. But, he also says he sells more Sony A7 and more Fuji X-Series. And that makes sense. If the traditional photo experience is the most important, particularly the Fujis have more to offer. They have aperture rings, electronic split screen, a size and design that is similar to cameras from the seventies and thereabouts and an X-E2 costs less than half of the price of the Df.

    As nice as the Df is, and the sensor is exceptional, it cannot hide the fact that it's a computer with dials, a D610 in disguise. 5 years ago, it would have been a sensation. Today, Fuji, Olympus and Sony have shown that there are more advanced ways of thinking retro, looking in the back mirror and on the road ahead at the same time. I would really have liked to have one, but unless I stumble across a substantial pile of cash, it probably won't be. I will envy each and every owner I see using one though
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Kurt

    I am impressed by the results you are getting on the street with the Df …how much of the AF capability are you using ? I have a hard time getting beyond the straightforward ..spot focus ..but I think you can use some of the continuous focus and maybe facial recognition parts of the AF system .
    Thanks for the compliment Roger. I'm not certain I'm much of an expert on AF after mostly stepping away from anything (except the S2 (and that's not much of an AF system)) with AF for the past 3-4 years. I'm just using using spot focus and mashing away. It's not perfect, but it's a nice option in situations when I know the camera will be faster and more accurate than I can hope to be. On a whim, I decided to pick up an adapter to use my Mamiya 80/1.9 on the camera. To my surprise, manual focus is much easier and more accurate than I thought.

    As for the camera size, buttons and dials on the outside and any other functionality that it may or may not have, none of it really bothers me too much as I really like the sensor. It's ability to almost see at night adds another dimension to what I like to shoot.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    There seems to be consensus on price and I agree. I think its far too expensive for what's on offer. As for the sensor, while it may have great high ISO, its not 'big news' any more. Most cameras, from the D610 to the 5D III to the A7/R have superb high ISO and while the DF may be better, is it better enough for most people to care? It seems not, or not at that price point anyway.

    Compared to some of the mirrorless cameras, it does not appear to break new ground and this is the big thing. I think your synopses of the above mentioned cameras is a little unfair. After all, the A7R does offer D800E image quality in a package close to the size of the X100 and significantly smaller the Oly EM-1, which is not to be sniffed at. As for the FE accompanying lenses, have you seen the optical performance, ultra low weight etc? They are extremely impressive lenses and certainly not to be compared to standard kit/low end lenses of similar speed.

    Even the Panny GM-1 has done something far more impressive to me than the DF, which is put a M43 sensor into a body smaller than an RX100, with the option of changing lenses. The thing is minute, but performance is right up there with M43 bodies with over double the volume.

    It all depends on what you want. A lot of people welcome the stunning imaging performance of the A7/R cameras in such a light package. Some were thrilled at the all in one performance of the X100 years back and some are over the moon about the high ISO and relative compactness of the DF, just fewer people are interested in paying such a steep premium over cameras that come very close, like the D610. I thought the DF was a cool concept until I saw the price! Cameras like the GM-1 and A7R don't have close competition in the way the DF does.
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Cost is related to it production, not whether photographers are impressed by ISO or looks or it "breaks new ground."

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    My perception from actual use of the Df is that for some the sum of its parts is greater than the whole. Just like the Leica M9 including its sensor is leagues behind current generations of cameras, it's image quality and overall shooting experience transcends it's mediocre stats and test measurments.
    The Df and its image quality is about more than just high ISO performance. Like the M9, whether it's worth it's end price, will always be quite subjective.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by JonPB View Post
    I would have loved the Df if it had dropped autofocus in favor of a brighter viewfinder, and if it lost the thickness of the rear LCD and the battery power it requires--with possibly a small monochrome display, where the only chimping possible would be with a histogram.

    Hear, hear. That would be a true D-FM. Interchangeable focus screens would just compete that camera. Let's hope sales of the Df are high enough to provoke Nikon to expand the Df line into something more.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Having finally handled a DF at the shop, I now have a basis to think about it other than the commercials and reviews.

    - It's more compact than it appears in the commercials. But it's not particularly handy IMO. And its still bigger than I want to carry.

    - There are WAY too many buttons, knobs, switches, dials, locking gizmos, etc on it. I thought the Olympus E-5 and E-M1 had a bit of an overload here ... the Nikon's magic wurlitzer of knob upon dial upon button, etc, just puts me off completely.

    - I suspect that with some study the bejonga overload of control things will make sense. At which point it is still a large, complex, very expensive camera that I only have a couple of lenses that might work on. The focusing screen isn't all that great for manual focusing, which nixes all of my lenses but one.

    If Nikon made a simple, FE2 or F3 digital camera equivalent (at least on the same level of simplicity that I can configure either the E-M1 or A7 to be), I'd likely buy one. But the DF just isn't that.

    G
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post

    - It's more compact than it appears in the commercials. But it's not particularly handy IMO. And its still bigger than I want to carry.

    - There are WAY too many buttons, knobs, switches, dials, locking gizmos, etc on it. I thought the Olympus E-5 and E-M1 had a bit of an overload here ... the Nikon's magic wurlitzer of knob upon dial upon button, etc, just puts me off completely.

    - I suspect that with some study the bejonga overload of control things will make sense. At which point it is still a large, complex, very expensive camera that I only have a couple of lenses that might work on. The focusing screen isn't all that great for manual focusing, which nixes all of my lenses but one.

    If Nikon made a simple, FE2 or F3 digital camera equivalent (at least on the same level of simplicity that I can configure either the E-M1 or A7 to be), I'd likely buy one. But the DF just isn't that.

    G
    I have to disagree with you on your first two points. I think the Df is about the limit for what I want to handhold and be comfortable with shooting for more than quick snaps. I have another thread over at RFF asking about recommendations for a 'professionally portable' system (with an eye on replacing my Nikon work gear in future) for travel editorial work and it came down to the Fuji XM-1 or the Panasonic GM-1. After handling both cameras and current lenses and the Df in-store, I have to say: I would much rather shoot the Df all day long. I like dials and buttons and wish more cameras had controls like the Df or even Olympus/Fuji's take on implementing them with the EM-1 and XT-1.

    That said, I see manual focusing with the Df to be a slightly crippled (or tacked on affair, much like the design quirks) especially with faster f/1.4 or f/1.2 lenses. IF it had interchangeable focus screens...oh man. What a missed opportunity, though then what would we have to look forward to in the Df2?

    The Df in Hong Kong is retailing at US$2000. Not a bad deal, I'd say, for a camera with the D4 sensor. Stick to the central AF point. Gold.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    it's fine to disagree with my feelings about the DF ... I just didn't like it, much like I feel about the Fuji X-P1 and X-T1. And many other cameras.

    The Olympus E-M1 is great in my hands, superb controls, just the right number of them, and all very configurable. The Sony A7 is a bit clunky in feel and second rate on ergonomics, but has just enough configurability to be comfortable and useful. I can shoot with either of these cameras all day long and not get tired, just like I can shoot all day with the Olympus E-1, a Nikon F3 or FM2, and a Leica M of almost any vintage.

    I can't imagine using an XM-1 or GM-1 for any day-long work, personally. Too small, too cramped for me. It's a narrow range of designs that I find truly comfortable and inviting to use for real work... :-)

    G

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    From what I have read the DF got hammered (and keep in mind, even Nikon-Jarvis did so I don't think it's just "those who wanted one but could not afford it" issue at all) - is because the "retro" was not done quite right.

    Thom Hogan has a lot on that and so do some reviews. Then add to that Nikon's own line up, etc. Many cite the Fuji X-T1 as an example of "what Nikon could have done right."

    Personally? I have not used one but looking at the controls does suggest the critique is right. I would not pick one even if done well because I don't like big cameras anymore (big enough not to fit at least in a coat pocket) but I could give it kudos if I see it's a good camera even if it's not for me.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I forgot to add Ecuador I completely missed your point on the "version 1" of things-

    First, some of the other version 1 mirrorless did get beaten up. AF speed was a big one or Olympus and the fuji x100.

    Second- because that was years ago and this is now. If you are coming out with a product to compete in today's market it will be held to today's standard (or an updated set of them), particularly if you are going to command a high price for the item

    Add this then to my previous post and I think you get the picture.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtKamka View Post
    Thanks for the compliment Roger. I'm not certain I'm much of an expert on AF after mostly stepping away from anything (except the S2 (and that's not much of an AF system)) with AF for the past 3-4 years. I'm just using using spot focus and mashing away. It's not perfect, but it's a nice option in situations when I know the camera will be faster and more accurate than I can hope to be. On a whim, I decided to pick up an adapter to use my Mamiya 80/1.9 on the camera. To my surprise, manual focus is much easier and more accurate than I thought.

    As for the camera size, buttons and dials on the outside and any other functionality that it may or may not have, none of it really bothers me too much as I really like the sensor. It's ability to almost see at night adds another dimension to what I like to shoot.
    Interesting.

    I am at the fence for this camera, and has been for a while, but what I am concerned about is: Why did they not put a better AF-machine in such a beauty for low light ??


    (I asume it is about marketing, not "selling out" of the D4(s), and as usual the stock holders are more important, than their photographers)

    I know both the AF-machines and the 51 point is clearly the best.

    I normally only use spot-focus when very backlit situations - or very odd/different colors, but the interesting thing here is:

    I read about another camera (do not recall what camera it was), that the cameras spot-focus was much more fast and precise, than the "matrix".

    And now - after this long story - comes my question to you:

    Is it the same with this DF ??= It the spot-focus faster and more precise ?

    THANKS

    ---

    Correction =IS the spot-focus faster and more precise ? (than Matrix)

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    It's funny to see this thread come up again. And it's funny to realize that even though I've been at the store several times and have a nice little gaggle of Nikon lenses that I could put to use on one, I haven't been interested enough in the DF to even take one off the shelf and look at it.

    All the buttons, dials, knobs, etc still seem like a lot of clutter to my eye, but I do see that it's physically not quite as huge as it seemed in the photos.

    G

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Godfrey,

    I agree that all the knobs and dials make it look cluttered, even gimmicky. But, if you hold one, that crap disappears and you will probably like the feel and ergos of it. Moreover, for the types of imaging you do, it may be the ideal sensor to date... And you already have the glass
    Jack
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    It's funny to see this thread come up again. And it's funny to realize that even though I've been at the store several times and have a nice little gaggle of Nikon lenses that I could put to use on one, I haven't been interested enough in the DF to even take one off the shelf and look at it.

    All the buttons, dials, knobs, etc still seem like a lot of clutter to my eye, but I do see that it's physically not quite as huge as it seemed in the photos.

    G
    I agree, I do not care about the nostalgic look, I could not care less, but I am after this fine sensor in a light body, but if it struggle
    or hunt in low light, I will forget about it

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Hatred is a very strong word I agree. I was shooting Nikon at the time this was released and was looking for something other than the D800E to be more a PR, fast shooting AF cam plus a APS sensor to get some reach. This one came close but just did not fit the bill totally the price was a little high I thought and the retro look was really not something I clamored for. I don't care much about looks but more about usability for me. Plus I needed a vertical grip and Nikon does not provide one although months later I see some 3rd party made one. The one big thing it does have is a nice sensor and nice high ISO. Other than that it just was a no go for me. Im fine with that as not much is made to my personal specs anyway. The cameras are disposable to me which is fine but we do need more product and Nikon seems to have slowed down or is waiting for Photokinia . But as a working Pro you wait for nothing to be released you get what you can and workaround stuff.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Godfrey,

    I agree that all the knobs and dials make it look cluttered, even gimmicky. But, if you hold one, that crap disappears and you will probably like the feel and ergos of it. Moreover, for the types of imaging you do, it may be the ideal sensor to date... And you already have the glass
    Jack,

    I have a few lenses ... 18mm f/3.5 AI-S, 50mm f/1.2 AI-S, Micro 55mm f/3.5 PreAI, 85mm f/1.8 PreAI, Micro 105mm f/2.8 AI-S, Sigma 600mm f/8 cat ... but I wouldn't call that "all the glass." My best lenses are Leica R: 19, 24, 35, 50x2, 90, 135, 180x2. I have both Nikon F and Leicaflex SL bodies to use these lenses for film capture. Of these lenses, I use the R 24, 50/1.4, and 90/2 the most.

    I use all these lenses on the Sony A7 body via a pair of Novoflex adapters. They all work very well on that body, and its half the size of the Nikon DF (never mind half the price). The Sony A7 sensor is pretty good. Set up the way I prefer to use it, the Sony is a little clunky but simple and neat. I've been considering obtaining an A7r as well, perhaps later this year.

    Do you think the Df sensor outperforms the A7 sensor? or A7r sensor? In what way?

    G

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    The Df has a great low light sensor in a restyled D610 body. It's priced too high.

    I think it got hammered because the marketing campaign promised a return to "pure photography" and we were all hoping for an FM2 with a digital sensor. We got a repackaged D610.
    Brad I agree. I want one because I want access to the sensor for half the price of a D4s, in a body half the size, too.

    While the price is high, someone please tell me high compared to what.

    The only comparable camera is the Sony A7s which has a price of $2500 for access to basically the same sensor. For most to move to Sony lens mount there would be a penalty of having to buy lenses, thus soaking up any price difference between the two cameras.

    I do agree Nikon missed the mark on the body size.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Happened across a review of the Df I hadn't seen before. I haven't read it yet, but thought others might enjoy.

    Gear Review: Nikon Df | American Photo

    G

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlinkingEye View Post
    Brad I agree. I want one because I want access to the sensor for half the price of a D4s, in a body half the size, too.

    While the price is high, someone please tell me high compared to what.

    The only comparable camera is the Sony A7s which has a price of $2500 for access to basically the same sensor. For most to move to Sony lens mount there would be a penalty of having to buy lenses, thus soaking up any price difference between the two cameras.

    I do agree Nikon missed the mark on the body size.
    Why do you say the A7s specifically? Is it for the extended ISO range beyond the A7's already almost crazy clean output up to ISO 12800?

    Unless you want autofocus, Program and Shutter priority AE modes, the only thing you need to use any Nikon lens on a Sony A7/r/s camera is a Novoflex NEX/NIK adapter, which is a lot less than the price difference between an A7 and Df body.

    G

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Why do you say the A7s specifically? Is it for the extended ISO range beyond the A7's already almost crazy clean output up to ISO 12800?

    G
    Yes. The point comparable is clean high ISO.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Jack,



    Do you think the Df sensor outperforms the A7 sensor? or A7r sensor? In what way?

    G
    Outperforms is based so much on personal preferences at this point in this level of cameras IMHO. But for me, yes it is superior, primarily in color rendition and noise character to almost anything else out there including my D800's. Sure you can push color around and get almost anything you want, but this cam delivers it straight off the sensor without dorking around -- sort of a Vericolor-ish palette if that makes sense, especially at higher ISO. Noise at high ISO is exceptional, and when it shows is film-ish pleasing to me. So it's in the look and feel of the file, not the pixel count.
    Jack
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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    I completely agree with Jack's assessment. The Df sensor and it's output, color pallet, the way it renders and presents a very pleasing image, it's high ISO performance...has by far by in my humble opinion, the best output of any Nikon DSLR to date, bar none (excluding perhaps the D4s). Of course lens selection and how the RAW files are adjusted as well as RAW converter employed can play a major role, but when I've employed the same exact few test lenses across the board with each successive Nikon DSLR since the days of the hybrid Nikon/Fuji E2s and each model thereafter, this is the conclusion I come to.

    I personally feel the Df, output wise is without equal among Nikon DSLR's, except possibly the D4s. By the numbers it may not measure the best, but much like a lot of Leica lenses, specifically referring to Mandler designed optics, there is a difference between what's exceptionally pleasing vs. what might measure the best, but that might not equate with what looks the best.

    This often is very subjective and not everyone might agree, so what I've posted is simply my own personal opinion.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 17th July 2014 at 07:56.

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    Re: Why is so much hatred for DF (vs the great mirrorless 1st version gadgets)?

    Interesting.

    From what you're saying, I suspect that the Nikon Df and Sony A7 are both so good it's more 'what you like' than 'how it performs'. My Leica R lenses are my best lenses, and I have a full kit of them, and they work very very nicely on the A7 ... and they can't work without modification on the Df. So I know what I'll be sticking with.

    Besides, the R8 body I acquired for a steal will be along any day and I look forward to using these fine lenses on the body they were originally designed for once in a while. :-)

    G

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