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Thread: D4s... I hate this

  1. #51
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I don't get all the frizzle-frazzel.

    Professionals shooting high action images for a living, (and all those mimicking them), have their camera. If there wasn't a demand and a need, they wouldn't make the things any more. When some smaller camera delivers the same performance for 1/2 the price, they will go bye-bye.

    Pros like Guy, and his versatile applications, need more image than these cameras deliver. No pro wants to pay $6,500 for a camera they use occasionally … at least, not anymore. The economy saw to that.

    @ Mat: the A7/A7r isn't limited to adapting legacy glass or other brands to the Sonys. The A7/A7R is a Sony product and all the Sony A mounts work on them with the SLT dual AF adapter … so the lens selection is not small, nor particularly limiting.

    Those that think the Pro tanks are suitable wedding and event cameras haven't been paying attention. NO ONE (except a few die-hards) wants to drag around a bag of bricks for 7 to 10 hours anymore … regardless of "balance". The 5D pounded the first nail in that coffin.

    When the next gen EVF and an AF system like the A6000 are put into the next wave FFs … then the game will be afoot.

    Meanwhile, camera's like the D4 reign supreme for what they were intended.

    - Marc
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I am not a pro and neither intend I to shoot the D4s or the 1Dx as I have fortunately better things to do with my money. Would I need a workhorse camera as Pro and not want (be allowed) to rely on anything which could let me down during work, I would get one of them.

    BUT I think it is safe to say that the only real comparison of the D4s can be the 1DX - which BTW I would prefer just from the specs and the sensor and my personal experience with both systems.

    The A7/A7r - as great as they may be - they never were designed as cameras for (and I meanwhile hate to use this word) Pro usage. This is alone reflected from the battery life and the AF speed and capability. Maybe these types of cameras will evolve and I am almost sure they will, as the system around them and then they would become maybe really comparable.

    Of course it is right if you are a good photographer you can almost every camera and lens combo make work perfectly for you and we see this in some examples only here in this forum. But finally this does not make a new system a pro system - at least not IMHO.
    While there are all sorts of cameras built for all types of applications … a pro camera is simply the one that's in the hands of a pro.

    Likewise, a so called "pro camera" in the hands of a novice doesn't necessarily make for pro results, experience does that.

    I'd venture a guess that more professional work is now done with prosumer cameras than ones designated as professional. I know that for a fact in the wedding/event/portrait world. Even the top wedding shooters use Canon 5D-II & IIIs at best.

    The paradigm shift that caused that was digital obsolescence.

    - Marc

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I don't get all the frizzle-frazzel.

    Professionals shooting high action images for a living, (and all those mimicking them), have their camera. If there wasn't a demand and a need, they wouldn't make the things any more. When some smaller camera delivers the same performance for 1/2 the price, they will go bye-bye.

    Pros like Guy, and his versatile applications, need more image than these cameras deliver. No pro wants to pay $6,500 for a camera they use occasionally … at least, not anymore. The economy saw to that.

    @ Mat: the A7/A7r isn't limited to adapting legacy glass or other brands to the Sonys. The A7/A7R is a Sony product and all the Sony A mounts work on them with the SLT dual AF adapter … so the lens selection is not small, nor particularly limiting.

    Those that think the Pro tanks are suitable wedding and event cameras haven't been paying attention. NO ONE (except a few die-hards) wants to drag around a bag of bricks for 7 to 10 hours anymore … regardless of "balance". The 5D pounded the first nail in that coffin.

    When the next gen EVF and an AF system like the A6000 are put into the next wave FFs … then the game will be afoot.

    Meanwhile, camera's like the D4 reign supreme for what they were intended.

    - Marc
    Obviously, only the rich and spoiled would buy the D4s to use occasionally, but for a working pro who uses it on a regular basis, it's not that expensive. The D3 was $5,000 when it was launched in 2007. Currently, they sell for $2,000 with 200,000 or more clicks on the counter. That's less than $10 per week for the tool you make a living from. Even if you buy a D4s now and give it away after 6 years, it's only $20 per week. And it isn't that much heavier than a 5D III, around 400g. Plus, you need 2 extra batteries for the 5D III to get the same number of shots, of which you need to carry one in case you run out of sauce. Mount a vertical grip on the 5D III, and it's larger than the D4s and just as heavy with two batteries.

    Then, take the 5d III to the race course and the D4s to a wedding. I know who will miss shots. Not even Guy can get the shots of a car going up in flames if his buffer is full or his battery empty. Or that unexpected field goal. Or the facial expression of a football player after he scores. Not a problem for those who do only weddings or only food photography etc. But around the globe, there are scores of photographers who do an assortment of assignments for different reasons.

    Horses for courses. That's why many of us have more than one system of course. If I didn't do action photography at all, I probably could survive with the Panasonic or a Sony or an Olympus or a Fuji. If I had only a D4s and a backup Nikon body, I could do anything. Since I prefer to have two systems to avoid carrying heavy stuff when not needed, I have the extra cost of the extra system, a cost that would more or less pay for a D4s.

    It's a dilemma sometimes. Even the choice between two cameras as different as a D4s and an A7r can be a dilemma. Do I make enough money and/or have enough fun shooting action to make the big Nikon cameras worthwhile? If I don't, the A7r may well be able to replace that D4s, or in my case the D2Xs plus D700. They are all great tools.

  4. #54
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Obviously, only the rich and spoiled would buy the D4s to use occasionally, but for a working pro who uses it on a regular basis, it's not that expensive. The D3 was $5,000 when it was launched in 2007. Currently, they sell for $2,000 with 200,000 or more clicks on the counter. That's less than $10 per week for the tool you make a living from. Even if you buy a D4s now and give it away after 6 years, it's only $20 per week. And it isn't that much heavier than a 5D III, around 400g. Plus, you need 2 extra batteries for the 5D III to get the same number of shots, of which you need to carry one in case you run out of sauce. Mount a vertical grip on the 5D III, and it's larger than the D4s and just as heavy with two batteries.

    Then, take the 5d III to the race course and the D4s to a wedding. I know who will miss shots. Not even Guy can get the shots of a car going up in flames if his buffer is full or his battery empty. Or that unexpected field goal. Or the facial expression of a football player after he scores. Not a problem for those who do only weddings or only food photography etc. But around the globe, there are scores of photographers who do an assortment of assignments for different reasons.

    Horses for courses. That's why many of us have more than one system of course. If I didn't do action photography at all, I probably could survive with the Panasonic or a Sony or an Olympus or a Fuji. If I had only a D4s and a backup Nikon body, I could do anything. Since I prefer to have two systems to avoid carrying heavy stuff when not needed, I have the extra cost of the extra system, a cost that would more or less pay for a D4s.

    It's a dilemma sometimes. Even the choice between two cameras as different as a D4s and an A7r can be a dilemma. Do I make enough money and/or have enough fun shooting action to make the big Nikon cameras worthwhile? If I don't, the A7r may well be able to replace that D4s, or in my case the D2Xs plus D700. They are all great tools.
    I think you are making my point for me … and one of my points was that these cameras reign supreme for what they were intended to do.

    However, photographers like Guy have diverse needs, and he has already clearly explained that resolution is a necessary party of his "delivery" on many jobs. While he can use his experience to make an A7R camera work in most, if not all circumstances, he can't make a 16 meg camera act like a 36 meg one.

    Funny thing, all those intense action, decisive moments you mentioned used be caught, and very well, with a buffer of 36 … per roll … not to mention the lack of modern Lithium batteries. Using cameras that are snail slow compared to what we have now.

    One does wonder how they did it.

    Perhaps they did it with skill, knowledge of the subject, and anticipation.

    I watch my less experienced second shooters scramble and fluster, and still miss shots all the time with their wonder cams (including "Pro" models in past). They have yet to hone their skills of anticipation and observation … and some of them never do, no matter what I may teach them … probably because it is part of what we call talent.


    - Marc
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Funny thing, all those intense action, decisive moments you mentioned used be caught, and very well, with a buffer of 36 … per roll … not to mention the lack of modern Lithium batteries. Using cameras that are snail slow compared to what we have now.



    - Marc
    50 years ago, one single photo would be published on all front pages around the world. The photographer who shot it got money and fame. The others got little or nothing. That's what you got with ancient equipment. Photography is more democratic these days. There are zillions of websites wanting their unique photo of an event. Increasingly often, I shoot next to people shooting sports with an iPad, and I know that some of those photos get published, simply because the editor of a website wants his own photo as shot by his own people at the location. If you give typewriters to a million monkeys, one might turn up with a novel.

    I prefer the old approach and the uniqueness of each photo, and I occasionally shoot events, including sports, using film, also ahooting with an Olympus OM. But it's a different art form. Few clients today accept to choose between 2 photos of a highlight when he knows that other photographers offer 10 or 100 times as many to choose from, even if those 2 photos happen to be superior to any of the 200 from the shoot-and-pray guy. I prefer to shoot for those who do accept the approach of uniqueness, but I cannot often choose, and the customer is more often than not right.

    I don't have any motorsport assignments coming up this year (Competing with the Canon Rebel crowd who shoot for free isn't my cup of tea. Better to stay home drinking Oolong), and if nothing turns up, I might shoot motorsports exclusively with film for at least parts of the season, 35mm for the races and MF at pit lane, mostly for fun, but also to improve my shooting discipline.
    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Interesting insights Jorgen. Thanks for sharing them.

    The proliferation of the all-seeing, all-dancing digital cams has impacted so many sectors of photography it isn't funny.

    I have a Pro friend that shoots amateur sports and I wouldn't wish that duty on my worst enemy. What used to be a reasonable income supplement, now involves impossibly long hours for incredibly low pay. A Nikon D4 is only a distant dream for him. Too many parents with cameras better than he can afford. He lives on his skill and wits to make ends meet … but only barely these days.

    Except for a small sliver of the market, wedding photography has become less about insightful and unique images, and more about marketing prowess and gimmicks … at ever lower profit margins. If a Pro Nikon shows up at a wedding it is more likely in the hands of a guest than the hired photographer. It is similar to being an actor now … a few highly visible Stars and those that copy them, while the remaining practitioners bus tables or take Barista jobs to survive.

    Law of natural selection I guess.

    - Marc
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    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Regardless of what camera one uses, having a unique signature or style that sets you apart is tantamount to success. Not so easy with sport shooting, but Jorgen proves it can be done. Oddly, wedding shooters with film cameras have become a niche industry reaping huge profits such as wedding shooter Jonathan Canlas. Whatever sets you apart in this industry flooded with iphones, ipads and 46mp point and shoots is going to get you closer to success.
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Obviously, only the rich and spoiled would buy the D4s to use occasionally, but for a working pro who uses it on a regular basis, it's not that expensive. The D3 was $5,000 when it was launched in 2007. Currently, they sell for $2,000 with 200,000 or more clicks on the counter. That's less than $10 per week for the tool you make a living from. Even if you buy a D4s now and give it away after 6 years, it's only $20 per week. And it isn't that much heavier than a 5D III, around 400g. Plus, you need 2 extra batteries for the 5D III to get the same number of shots, of which you need to carry one in case you run out of sauce. Mount a vertical grip on the 5D III, and it's larger than the D4s and just as heavy with two batteries.

    Then, take the 5d III to the race course and the D4s to a wedding. I know who will miss shots. Not even Guy can get the shots of a car going up in flames if his buffer is full or his battery empty. Or that unexpected field goal. Or the facial expression of a football player after he scores. Not a problem for those who do only weddings or only food photography etc. But around the globe, there are scores of photographers who do an assortment of assignments for different reasons.

    Horses for courses. That's why many of us have more than one system of course. If I didn't do action photography at all, I probably could survive with the Panasonic or a Sony or an Olympus or a Fuji. If I had only a D4s and a backup Nikon body, I could do anything. Since I prefer to have two systems to avoid carrying heavy stuff when not needed, I have the extra cost of the extra system, a cost that would more or less pay for a D4s.

    It's a dilemma sometimes. Even the choice between two cameras as different as a D4s and an A7r can be a dilemma. Do I make enough money and/or have enough fun shooting action to make the big Nikon cameras worthwhile? If I don't, the A7r may well be able to replace that D4s, or in my case the D2Xs plus D700. They are all great tools.

    Yes this is part of the issue and like my Phase back if there is just not enough work to justify a specialized camera. Than the occasionally use of it makes no sense. I can't justify the D4s as I just don't shoot enough sports but if I did it would be a perfect tool for it. Also for me I want , need or desire at least 36mpx as my main tool. 16 is not enough but it is for PJ shooters that need to transmit before they even leave the field of play.
    Even if it was a high ISO. Concert shooter this would be a interesting choice as the D4 is one but we have lessor value cams that can get that high ISO stuff so for that type of shooter it maybe a tougher decision. But for hard core action this and the 1dx are really the only game in town.

    Now I will say I wish some of the marketing spin on other cams not designed specifically for sports would not exist. It's really not the intention for lets say a A7 to do sports. But more like its occasionally capable between us folks but Sony like others would not be that honest about it in the marketing if you know what I mean. Sure soccer mom types would use it but that's really not a Pro use type cam for this stuff. As we always say tools for different styles is the route to take. If I shot one of the Pro sports than this tool would certainly be in the bag. Interesting fact and I honestly still don't no why it is but at Suchi canon usage was about 75 percent and 25 percent Nikon for the Pros at that event. Surprises me but I'm not a big Canon fan at all, to me Nikons are a nicer cam to shoot. At least for me it is.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Regardless of what camera one uses, having a unique signature or style that sets you apart is tantamount to success. Not so easy with sport shooting, but Jorgen proves it can be done. Oddly, wedding shooters with film cameras have become a niche industry reaping huge profits such as wedding shooter Jonathan Canlas. Whatever sets you apart in this industry flooded with iphones, ipads and 46mp point and shoots is going to get you closer to success.
    Nice fairy tale that all photographers like to foist off as the truth. Unfortunately, a unique signature alone isn't enough in the wedding industry … it has to be one that panders to the tastes of the consuming public … and is fueled more by contacts, marketing and PR presence … those resistant to these market pressures usually had a vast client list, and a well oiled machine prior to the industry falling off the cliff some years ago.

    I've watched some pretty unique shooters take the roller-coaster ride up and then free fall not long afterwards. As the saying goes … "He got so popular, no one goes there anymore".

    As I said, there are stars and those that mimic them serving a small cross section of lurcative weddings, but the fact of the matter is that there are fewer weddings now, and those getting married are older and tend to pay for their own wedding.

    I know a huge amount of wedding and portrait shooters that are very successful as a business and not one of them is all that unique.

    Not saying one shouldn't try … but trying doesn't assure anything IF what and how you see the world doesn't have a wide appeal for a lot of different people.

    - Marc

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    To add video is not helping the still guys either. I have been pondering doing more video but I just really don't like shooting it. To me its just boring to do. I know others love it , I just can't wrap my head around it.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think you are making my point for me … and one of my points was that these cameras reign supreme for what they were intended to do.

    However, photographers like Guy have diverse needs, and he has already clearly explained that resolution is a necessary party of his "delivery" on many jobs. While he can use his experience to make an A7R camera work in most, if not all circumstances, he can't make a 16 meg camera act like a 36 meg one.

    Funny thing, all those intense action, decisive moments you mentioned used be caught, and very well, with a buffer of 36 … per roll … not to mention the lack of modern Lithium batteries. Using cameras that are snail slow compared to what we have now.

    One does wonder how they did it.

    Perhaps they did it with skill, knowledge of the subject, and anticipation.

    I watch my less experienced second shooters scramble and fluster, and still miss shots all the time with their wonder cams (including "Pro" models in past). They have yet to hone their skills of anticipation and observation … and some of them never do, no matter what I may teach them … probably because it is part of what we call talent.


    - Marc

    Marc summed this up nicely and what really was my point. It's all about skill, you can give a great photographer nothing and he will come home with the goods and in the film days before motor drives, Polaroid backs and all that tech that exist today amazing sports images where being made with gear that people stick there nose at today.

    I know 11 Fps sounds incredible but that does not mean you got the decisive moment you still need skill for that. This was my point.


    This reminds me of being in Acadia National park shooting a light house. There where at least 30 shooters on hand and I'm hearing motor drives whirling on something that has not moved in 100 years. I turned to our workshop folks and we all about pissed on ourselves laughing so hard. Really you need 11 Fps second to shoot a sunrise. Lol
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Marc summed this up nicely and what really was my point. It's all about skill, you can give a great photographer nothing and he will come home with the goods and in the film days before motor drives, Polaroid backs and all that tech that exist today amazing sports images where being made with gear that people stick there nose at today.

    I know 11 Fps sounds incredible but that does not mean you got the decisive moment you still need skill for that. This was my point.


    This reminds me of being in Acadia National park shooting a light house. There where at least 30 shooters on hand and I'm hearing motor drives whirling on something that has not moved in 100 years. I turned to our workshop folks and we all about pissed on ourselves laughing so hard. Really you need 11 Fps second to shoot a sunrise. Lol
    I used to shoot a lot of ice hockey on film using an F3HP.
    The fps is not the point, although the bird shooters I know think it is.
    For me it is the optical viewfinder and the low latency for shutter press.
    I used to use two cameras, one shooting, one being reloaded. We would get assigned out portholes by the arena, and there we stood poking our lenses out through the holes in the glass.
    We watched the play through the viewfinder, and yes tried to anticipate the action. Following the puck was paramount and pressing the button at just the right time was important for the money-shot. Some shot with motor drives, and usually ran them full tilt when the action was close to the net. There is only about 2 tenths of a second between when the shot starts and when it bounces off the goaltender's chest.
    Today, I look at what folks do with their fast rate bodies and it is sort of variable rate. A whole lot is one frame at a time, but when a shot looks like it is being set-up the practice seems to be to take one a touch early but then to keep the button pushed down at max rate because the play of the game can be so unpredictable. What folks say today is that about half of the keepers happen when planned, about half taken somewhere during the burst.
    In these games, there are usually 4-6 shooters working the portholes and the competition amongst them is just as fierce as what is happening on the ice.

    There is a whole lot of slow-action shooting where fps makes absolutely no difference. Runway, almost all studio other than the occasional strange setup that might need extreme speed (bullets in flight, for example but those are usually one shot per take), and certainly lighthouses.
    But there are uses for fps, and uses for optical viewfinders.
    Remember that this thread was all about the D4s announcement and the Sony did not/should not have been introduced as a topic until someone (and I know who) did.
    -bob

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I never brought up the Sony in this thread and that was the point. But as far as optical and EVF there are many takes on that and for me the EVF especially the Sonys it's all about focusing and confirmation. Unfortunately Bob any modern camera absolutely sucks with a optical finder with AF glass with manual focusing sucks dick. Its horrible the focusing screens and the lack on AF glass to have any feel at all manual focusing. That green dot means really nothing but a focus peak is just more helpful to me.from someone that sometimes needs AF but hates having to rely on it. I'm finding for my older eyes the EVF helps me better with focus peaking , zooming all INSIDE the finder. The Nikons don't do that in the finder. It's why I switched. BOB you may know how to use a 11fps camera to shoot action but a very large chunk of people do not but just lay on the horn. You don't like the EVF we get that but for me its much better for me to nail, Confirm, view and work with in finder without taking my eye from the eyecup. I can deal with the downside of EVF . Its a change that I accepted. Not everyone has too. But the crap comments Bob was totally unfair and out of place. Sorry I flat out disagree with it in total. You obviously think Sonys suck. Great but I think Nikon is a day late and a dollar short at giving me what I want to use. It doesn't suck just outdated for me. I'm easily getting everything done with no issues at all it that area.

    With that I'm out of this conversation.
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I never brought up the Sony in this thread and that was the point. But as far as optical and EVF there are many takes on that and for me the EVF especially the Sonys it's all about focusing and confirmation. Unfortunately Bob any modern camera absolutely sucks with a optical finder with AF glass with manual focusing sucks dick. Its horrible the focusing screens and the lack on AF glass to have any feel at all manual focusing. That green dot means really nothing but a focus peak is just more helpful to me.from someone that sometimes needs AF but hates having to rely on it. I'm finding for my older eyes the EVF helps me better with focus peaking , zooming all INSIDE the finder. The Nikons don't do that in the finder. It's why I switched. BOB you may know how to use a 11fps camera to shoot action but a very large chunk of people do not but just lay on the horn. You don't like the EVF we get that but for me its much better for me to nail, Confirm, view and work with in finder without taking my eye from the eyecup. I can deal with the downside of EVF . Its a change that I accepted. Not everyone has too. But the crap comments Bob was totally unfair and out of place. Sorry I flat out disagree with it in total. You obviously think Sonys suck. Great but I think Nikon is a day late and a dollar short at giving me what I want to use. It doesn't suck just outdated for me. I'm easily getting everything done with no issues at all it that area.

    With that I'm out of this conversation.
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/570443-post14.html there is started.

    No, I don't think that the Sony sucks,
    I do think it sucks trying to do those things that the D4s was designed for.
    If I had a pile of R lenses I would be all over that camera.
    We used to do pretty well on a ground glass, and yes focus peaking is cool, just that it sacrifices the optical viewfinder.
    A lot of the video folks today don't use any sort of focusing assist at all through the viewfinder. That is the job of the focus puller who does not even have a monitor view.
    anyway, lets keep this thread on the nikon.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Agree its a Nikon thread. Certainly would not mind having the D4 though as I honestly think this sensor on it and the DF cam have a nice look to it regardless of speed stuff.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    D4s ... I hate this ... (uh-oh)


    In my humble opinion we ought to be sufficiently grown-up to deal with a conversation containing different brands, different formats, different types of gear,
    even different types of viewfinders (the most crucial part of a camera if you ask me).

    If all these comparisons and preferences are declared taboo to discuss I fear the conversation will slowly be replaced by silence :sleep006:

    By the way I actually think Jack was the first to mention the new innovative and trendy Sony A alternative in this Nikon D4s thread, see post # 4,
    quickly followed by Joe in post # 7, and with many others following - which is totally all right with me despite my own countless F-mount tattoos .-)

    Just my 0.02
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  17. #67
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Nice fairy tale that all photographers like to foist off as the truth. Unfortunately, a unique signature alone isn't enough in the wedding industry … it has to be one that panders to the tastes of the consuming public … and is fueled more by contacts, marketing and PR presence … those resistant to these market pressures usually had a vast client list, and a well oiled machine prior to the industry falling off the cliff some years ago.

    I've watched some pretty unique shooters take the roller-coaster ride up and then free fall not long afterwards. As the saying goes … "He got so popular, no one goes there anymore".

    As I said, there are stars and those that mimic them serving a small cross section of lurcative weddings, but the fact of the matter is that there are fewer weddings now, and those getting married are older and tend to pay for their own wedding.

    I know a huge amount of wedding and portrait shooters that are very successful as a business and not one of them is all that unique.

    Not saying one shouldn't try … but trying doesn't assure anything IF what and how you see the world doesn't have a wide appeal for a lot of different people.

    - Marc
    I agree that marketing and contacts play a big part in success, but as you say, "pandering to the consuming public", especially today is driven by economics. The digital camera revolution has spurred innovation because the learning curve is well...there is no learning curve! Economics have put higher end digital capture in the hands of anyone. Weddings are a mix of what I consider to be a photographers dream. You've got high fashion, mood swings, and alcohol, if you take your time and be creative, you can assure your next assignment will come from this job because you were creative and original. A cynical approach will certainly not help ones portfolio.


    As a side note the D4 is primarily for news organizations/sport shooters that need the photos uploaded for press release via the internet. It's an amazing camera, whose 16mp is perfect for today's lenses.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 2nd March 2014 at 17:13.

  18. #68
    Senior Member johnnygoesdigital's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I'm a little surprised by some of the comments and language. I thought you couldn't use derogatory comments or flat out offensive words. Where's the exchange of ideas and objectivity? When brand loyalty trumps any objective insights or criticism then this just becomes irrelevant.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    ...surprised by some of the comments and language...offensive words. Where's the exchange of ideas and objectivity?

    Could not agree more...

    Its a box with a lens and shutter...for Heaven's sake....

    Seems to be a trend today that we emphasize things with comments that we later regret...what works in the barrio may not it the forum.

    The difficulty with the written word is that it is like the Energizer Bunny....lasts and lasts.....hard to retract without an admission of .... regret/loss/responsibility....

    So here is my take...D4s is the safe route for Nikon...nothing risked little gained.

    Maybe better AF ... we will know in a day or two after it hits the steet.

    Really just a Df with Kevlar clothing....and a better battery.

    As Marc has commented so many times...horses for courses!

    I had a D3 D3s now a Df ... no interest in massive FPS nor a bit faster AF....

    Between my Leica Monochrom, M-E, Sony A7R, Nikon Df and an expectant Fuji X-T1 not to mention the Blackmagic Pocket....I should have all the bases covered. So the real question is why do I not feel like I have the optimum camera?

    Nothing is perfect...adjust expectations and maximize the potential of the existent....

    Regards,

    Bob

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    So the real question is why do I not feel like I have the optimum camera?


    Bob
    That's because you don't have an F6 yet
    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    That's because you don't have an F6 yet
    Actually had two...just hate scanning.....did I say HATE?

    After scanning every photo I took over 20+ years with Nikon and Imacon scanners .... dusting and post process...I have a severe aversion to film and scans.....but love the output.

    Nice camera but really AA's?

    When I have an unlimited amount of time I may reconsider but for now the Df
    comes close....

    Bob

  22. #72
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Actually had two...just hate scanning.....did I say HATE?

    After scanning every photo I took over 20+ years with Nikon and Imacon scanners .... dusting and post process...I have a severe aversion to film and scans.....but love the output.

    Nice camera but really AA's?

    When I have an unlimited amount of time I may reconsider but for now the Df
    comes close....

    Bob
    I'm joking of course, but it is very nice. I was on a family outing yesterday, and decided to take a Nikon camera instead of something smaller. After I gave away the D80, there is really only one Nikon body for such occasions. Everything else feels large and clumsy (I don't have anything smaller than the D300). So I grabbed the F6 and one roll of XP2 and one Ektar 100.

    Exactly for the reason you mention, I have not scanned all my old photos, just those I need (they are nicely cataloged), so I still don't mind scanning a few rolls every month or so

  23. #73
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I'm joking of course, but it is very nice. I was on a family outing yesterday, and decided to take a Nikon camera instead of something smaller. After I gave away the D80, there is really only one Nikon body for such occasions. Everything else feels large and clumsy (I don't have anything smaller than the D300). So I grabbed the F6 and one roll of XP2 and one Ektar 100.

    Exactly for the reason you mention, I have not scanned all my old photos, just those I need (they are nicely cataloged), so I still don't mind scanning a few rolls every month or so
    Jorgen,

    Film scans really are gorgeous...just so time consuming!

    The F6 was amazing in that Nikon bothered to produce it ... a bit too late and too expensive for the masses.

    Bob

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Jorgen,

    Film scans really are gorgeous...just so time consuming!

    The F6 was amazing in that Nikon bothered to produce it ... a bit too late and too expensive for the masses.

    Bob
    But we are not the masses, are we?

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    And with very clean used F6s selling for ~1200 USD now, they are actually quite affordable.

    Gary

  26. #76
    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I don't get all the frizzle-frazzel.

    Professionals shooting high action images for a living, (and all those mimicking them), have their camera. If there wasn't a demand and a need, they wouldn't make the things any more. When some smaller camera delivers the same performance for 1/2 the price, they will go bye-bye.

    Pros like Guy, and his versatile applications, need more image than these cameras deliver. No pro wants to pay $6,500 for a camera they use occasionally … at least, not anymore. The economy saw to that.

    @ Mat: the A7/A7r isn't limited to adapting legacy glass or other brands to the Sonys. The A7/A7R is a Sony product and all the Sony A mounts work on them with the SLT dual AF adapter … so the lens selection is not small, nor particularly limiting.

    Those that think the Pro tanks are suitable wedding and event cameras haven't been paying attention. NO ONE (except a few die-hards) wants to drag around a bag of bricks for 7 to 10 hours anymore … regardless of "balance". The 5D pounded the first nail in that coffin.

    When the next gen EVF and an AF system like the A6000 are put into the next wave FFs … then the game will be afoot.

    Meanwhile, camera's like the D4 reign supreme for what they were intended.

    - Marc
    Marc,do you think that the weight of these pro bodies (Which I am a fan of.. ) could be lowered with new materials?

    I wonder if carbon fibre or composite plastics could lower the weight and costs?I would have no doubt that strength and durability would be no issue..

    Rob

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    The problem with composites is the impact resistance. Bang it against something hard, and they crack. Metal gets a dent which most of the time doesn't affect functionality.

  28. #78
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    Marc,do you think that the weight of these pro bodies (Which I am a fan of.. ) could be lowered with new materials?

    I wonder if carbon fibre or composite plastics could lower the weight and costs?I would have no doubt that strength and durability would be no issue..

    Rob
    Probably a decent amount of weight savings could be realized with a lighter battery … I have been amazed by Leica's relatively small, light weight S2 lithium battery which never seems to run low.

    They probably could trim the size a bit here and there … keep the bigness, just a bit less of it

    - Marc

  29. #79
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Not sure it is a Nikon priority to try and lower size and weight on a D4 style camera . A D800 yes but the D4 is usually rigged up with big glass anyway so maybe not a big concern plus they may like keeping the robustness of it. I can understand that for sure. It's also designed at least in theory to take a lot of abuse of a PJ. In my days shooting for the Phoenix Suns I literally would just throw a cam to the floor and grab the second body with another lens on it. Basketball is pretty fast paced and you really need two different lenses at all times. Sitting under the basket was pretty close to the action underneath. So a good wide helps but the need for a 200 f2 or longer always was a need as well and cams just flew all over the place. Yes I was a floor huger for awhile there. Killed your back. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Guy said--->>>"Concert shooter this would be a interesting choice as the D4 is one but we have lessor value cams that can get that high ISO stuff so for that type of shooter it maybe a tougher decision.<<<

    You nailed it! For some concert shooters (and types of performances), there is a sort of a hole and lack of a high ISO performing camera that also has a top frame rate. At least 24mp or more is needed for large format printed promotional material but a frame rate at least as fast as a D3s is required to adequately capture decisive moments of fast moving performers flying across the stage (at least in terms of whats expected to be captured with todays technology). In the Nikon camp, there really is no DSLR that meets this requirement...unless a 24mp D4 body was introduced. For certain applications, there can be a significant difference between having 16mp and at least 24mp, and often at times 16mp didn't cut it. Even 24mp is not exactly a leap but every bit helps. The D600 and it's limited spread of AF sensors as well as it's frame rate barely cut it (and I emphasize barely). It all depends on what the camera is being used for that will determine which model if any, fit the bill properly. If one doesn't exist, one then for better or worse has to make what's available work.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    What Nikon could do, but probably won't attempt, is to make a smaller D4 style body with a DX sensor. Something along the lines of a shrunken D2X. Add to that a new 300mm f/4 and a perfectly matched 1.4x TC, and many sports shooters who mostly shoot in daylight would be all over it, particularly if it could take the new D4s battery.

    Apart from the lighter body, the weight saving using a DX sensor is considerable when long lenses are counted in. There's a very, very long "waiting for the D400" thread over at FM.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Maybe the more useful product as a addition or even the D4 could be a 24mpx 6fps cam. The 11 FPS seems like a little overkill to me and with that frame rate it had to go to 16 mpx. Maybe addition too would be better and I think a good product. Maybe a touch smaller as well. It's that concert and hobbyist market that I keep thinking about. The D4 is certainly more aimed at Pros and reality is we are a small market. The bigger market is more liken to a 24mpx and 6fps at least I think so. More a 3500 dollar product.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  33. #83
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I used to shoot a lot of ice hockey on film using an F3HP.
    The fps is not the point, although the bird shooters I know think it is.
    For me it is the optical viewfinder and the low latency for shutter press.
    I used to use two cameras, one shooting, one being reloaded. We would get assigned out portholes by the arena, and there we stood poking our lenses out through the holes in the glass.
    We watched the play through the viewfinder, and yes tried to anticipate the action. Following the puck was paramount and pressing the button at just the right time was important for the money-shot. Some shot with motor drives, and usually ran them full tilt when the action was close to the net. There is only about 2 tenths of a second between when the shot starts and when it bounces off the goaltender's chest.
    Today, I look at what folks do with their fast rate bodies and it is sort of variable rate. A whole lot is one frame at a time, but when a shot looks like it is being set-up the practice seems to be to take one a touch early but then to keep the button pushed down at max rate because the play of the game can be so unpredictable. What folks say today is that about half of the keepers happen when planned, about half taken somewhere during the burst.
    In these games, there are usually 4-6 shooters working the portholes and the competition amongst them is just as fierce as what is happening on the ice.

    -bob
    This has precisely been my experience shooting hockey. It always a combination of being patient and anticipating when to shoot decisive key moments vs. pray and spray when the action required it.

    Sure, in the "film only" era, with lower FPS or single shot cameras, whether it be sports, wildlife or other type of photography (especially in the professional arena), one's style of shooting and learning how to anticipate and develop a sixth sense when it was time to press the shutter, separated those getting the shot(s) from those that didn't. It reminds me of a portfolio of a professional NFL shooter for a major big city newspaper in the 50's and 60's I had the privilege of looking at, that his son had in his possession, along with many of the stories of how his dat "got the shot". He had years of front page sport section images and yet he often captured the action with use of a single shot frame rate. He had to rely on his intimate knowledge of the players he was shooting and taking well educated guesses where the play and action was possibly heading even before the ball was in the hands of the quarterback. It was no different from professional wildlife shooters during same era. In other words, know your subjects!

    Expectations from editors and publishers back then were different to and they have risen along with capabilities of equipment over the decades. So yes, it still takes a skill to time those shots and also intimately know the subject or activity you're shooting with a keen knowledge of what's likely to happen just ahead of when it actually does, in order to be ready for that moment.

    Of course there are so many other unexpected moments that no amount of preplanning can adequately prepare for publishable images and that's where the capability of the equipment (AF speed, FPS etc.), play an important role.

    Intimate knowledge of the subjects and activities that one is shooting + having the right tool to take advantage of both anticipated and non anticipated moments. for me are some of the most important keys in capturing the shots that are both expected and required both for professional, client, or even personal use.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 3rd March 2014 at 10:21.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Maybe the more useful product as a addition or even the D4 could be a 24mpx 6fps cam. The 11 FPS seems like a little overkill to me and with that frame rate it had to go to 16 mpx. Maybe addition too would be better and I think a good product. Maybe a touch smaller as well. It's that concert and hobbyist market that I keep thinking about. The D4 is certainly more aimed at Pros and reality is we are a small market. The bigger market is more liken to a 24mpx and 6fps at least I think so. More a 3500 dollar product.
    Guy, there already is that camera you described....it's called the Nikon 610 . Frame rate is just about 6 FPS and it has 24mp, but believe me, for the professional concert shooter, this is not the camera one wants to be using. It's AF speed, AF tracking, AF sensor layout and AF lock on and any # of other attributes, just aren't suitable when it comes to high demand, fast paced shooting of this type.

    Now if Nikon made a 24MP D800 sized and build quality body along with it's sensor layout but with at least 8FPS and the AF and tracking speed from at least a D3s...that for this type of shooting I believe it would be a sensational camera. Heck, if it even was 6FPS, I'd take it! I know from experience that for more causal type shooting, the specs of a D600/610 are more that adaquite for getting files that are of superb quality (think of downsized D800 files)...but for the types of shooting I described, the specs of the D610 fall short by a tremendously wide margin....and that comes from attempting to use it along side a D3s and D4 and see if it's able to be used as a higher MP adjunct to those cameras. It wasn't, unfortunately.

    Dave (D&A)

  35. #85
    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I shot a ton of tennis, basketball and baseball right out of college (as well as during college), and I was using an F3HP with a winder, with a normal F3 as my backup.

    With tennis and baseball especially, the high frame rate was very helpful as you had a better opportunity of catching that precise moment of when the ball connected with the racket or the bat.

    Nowadays, with everything being digital, it doesn't cost anything more to have 20 frames instead of 2 or 3. That is the nice part about the digital age.
    Bryan

    “You don’t take a photograph, you make it.” — Ansel Adams

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Guy, there already is that camera you described....it's called the Nikon 610 . Frame rate is just about 6 FPS and it has 24mp, but believe me, for the professional concert shooter, this is not the camera one wants to be using. It's AF speed, AF tracking, AF sensor layout and AF lock on and any # of other attributes, just aren't suitable when it comes to high demand, fast paced shooting of this type.

    Now if Nikon made a 24MP D800 sized and build quality body along with it's sensor layout but with at least 8FPS and the AF and tracking speed from at least a D3s...that for this type of shooting I believe it would be a sensational camera. Heck, if it even was 6FPS, I'd take it! I know from experience that for more causal type shooting, the specs of a D600/610 are more that adaquite for getting files that are of superb quality (think of downsized D800 files)...but for the types of shooting I described, the specs of the D610 fall short by a tremendously wide margin....and that comes from attempting to use it along side a D3s and D4 and see if it's able to be used as a higher MP adjunct to those cameras. It wasn't, unfortunately.

    Dave (D&A)
    The D610 is rather close. If they doubled the buffer size and halved the buffer empty time, it would be better, adding an integrated vertical grip and the D4s battery would make it very cool, make a brother with the 24MP DX sensor for longer reach (similar to the D300/700 combo) but the same buffer and grip would make me run to the camera shop

  37. #87
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The D610 is rather close. If they doubled the buffer size and halved the buffer empty time, it would be better, adding an integrated vertical grip and the D4s battery would make it very cool, make a brother with the 24MP DX sensor for longer reach (similar to the D300/700 combo) but the same buffer and grip would make me run to the camera shop
    Agree put the vertical grip in the mix , make it a little more durable. Weather sealing and all that. Give us 6fps 24mpx sensor with a crop factor added if needed and a buffer that just won't quit. Keep the D4 focusing system charge about 3500 and every wanna be sports shooter would buy it. That's a lot of people too.

    Be a great backup or second body for the Pros as well.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    IMO, Nikon has STILL failed to produce a D700 replacement. Not sure where they are headed these days. To me, it appears that they have introduced a new body which no one needs (D4s) in that the D4 is still relevant. Love that D4 sensor - but to be an improvement would have to include a few more mp's.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Agree put the vertical grip in the mix , make it a little more durable. Weather sealing and all that. Give us 6fps 24mpx sensor with a crop factor added if needed and a buffer that just won't quit. Keep the D4 focusing system charge about 3500 and every wanna be sports shooter would buy it. That's a lot of people too.

    Be a great backup or second body for the Pros as well.
    This is basically the camera I described "above" except without the integrated grip....although an optional add on matching grip from Nikon is available (I tried it). Actually if they marketed it with a removable grip (even though less desirable)...Nikon can be sure it would appeal to a wider market. Those that want these features in a very compact camera and those that want the size and heft of their pro oriented cameras.

    All in all its the camera many, including myself have been clamoring for. 24mp (a good resolution for a wide range of manageable options) in a pro oriented built body with pro level Af and sensors , Af speed,, a decent frame rate, WR and more I think would be a major hit. All the other models as good as they are, dance around these specs in one form or another but don't offer them in a single package. Heck even a D700 built body with these capabilities I bet would be embraced very quickly.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 3rd March 2014 at 20:50.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ...

    Tell you what meet me at the next football game bring your D4s and I'll still smoke your *** with a hand crank. REALLY did not know gear actually shot images.
    ....
    Seriously???

    This is coming from the professional who changes gear with every new "game changer" on the market...

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Yea love the challenge. Its a game every day to succeed. There a tool the brain and instincts are not metal, glass and plastic. Never was never will be and they can't think just like AF has no idea what you want.

    What you don't understand is the gear is the most boring part of the process. Anything that gets you excited is a bonus.

    I admit also at one point in this thread I was ready to walk away from this forum entirely. Thats how pissed off I was. So take that quote with a grain of salt. But I will still defend the fact it's all about us as the shooter.
    Last edited by Guy Mancuso; 3rd March 2014 at 19:15.
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    FYI I shot the Phoenix Suns for a season on the floor under the basket like all the PJs but I was working for the Suns. It was one shot every 2 seconds as I was connected to the arena strobes. So no help with motor drives, FPS and stuff like that and half the time I shot with a Hassy. Plus I used remote cameras hooked up to the strobes.
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    This is basically the camera I described "above" except without the integrated grip....although an optional add on matching grip from Nikon is available (I tried it). Actually if they marketed it with a removable grip (even though less desirable)...Nikon can be sure it would appeal to a wider market. Those that want these features in a very compact camera and those that want the size and heft of their pro oriented cameras.

    All in all its the camera many, including myself have been clamoring for. 24mp (a good resolution for a wide range of manageable options) in a pro oriented built body with pro level Af and sensors , Af speed,, a decent frame rate WR and more I think would be a major hit. All the other models as good as they are, dance around these specs in one form or another but don't offer them in a single package. Heck even a D700 built body with these capabilities I bet would be embraced very quickly.

    Dave (D&A)
    I believe the most important reason many don't buy a camera with a vertical grip is that most of those cameras are expensive. A relatively compact camera with the integrated grip would be more compact than one with an add on grip, lighter, have better weather sealing as Guy mentions and be easier to handle. Fuji did this with the S3, and apart from lacking command wheels when being used vertically, it worked very well. For handheld use with long telephoto lenses, there's simply no comparison.

  44. #94
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrew View Post
    IMO, Nikon has STILL failed to produce a D700 replacement.
    Funny that. Maybe it sold too well. I know a few sports shooters who use it instead of a D3/4. It was much cheaper and does much of the same (8 fps and a relatively decent buffer). Second hand, a D700 with a grip isn't very much cheaper than a D3 and twice as expensive as a 5D Mark I. That says a lot.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 3rd March 2014 at 19:35.

  45. #95
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    You do see a lot of comments on all the forums how upset D700 folks never felt they got a replacement cam.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You do see a lot of comments on all the forums how upset D700 folks never felt they got a replacement cam.
    Interestingly, the D300, which shares the body with the D700, hasn't been replaced either. Many are complaining about that too, particularly sports shooters who don't want to go FX due to lens cost and/or weight. The 5 year old D300s is still a current model and the mother of these two, the D300, was launched in 2007!

  47. #97
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Not too bad from Thom Hogan this:

    What Happened? | byThom | Thom Hogan
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  48. #98
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You do see a lot of comments on all the forums how upset D700 folks never felt they got a replacement cam.
    A Df without the retro stuff in a D700 body and at a cheaper price would do it!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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  49. #99
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    A Df without the retro stuff in a D700 body and at a cheaper price would do it!
    Agreed, it would with a few minor tweeks and an increase of resolution to 24mp (in my opinion)...but that's because I need at least this much resolution for specific applications.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Maybe the more useful product as a addition or even the D4 could be a 24mpx 6fps cam. The 11 FPS seems like a little overkill to me and with that frame rate it had to go to 16 mpx. Maybe addition too would be better and I think a good product. Maybe a touch smaller as well. It's that concert and hobbyist market that I keep thinking about. The D4 is certainly more aimed at Pros and reality is we are a small market. The bigger market is more liken to a 24mpx and 6fps at least I think so. More a 3500 dollar product.
    It should take D4 batteries, have the D4 low-light AF, and fast mirror (= short blackout). $3500 isn't important, $6500 would be fine.

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