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Thread: D4s... I hate this

  1. #101
    Super Duper
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    It should take D4 batteries, have the D4 low-light AF, and fast mirror (= short blackout). $3500 isn't important, $6500 would be fine.
    D4 batteries are of course nice, but then what it will end up is essentually being the the current D4 with a lower 24mp and possibly 6-8 FPS instead of 11 FPS. Nothing wrong with that and a lot of us would like that, but at $6500.00 , I don't think the market at this time would be big enough to entice Nikon to go with it. At some point when technology moves on, we'll probably see a D5 with 24mp and 11 FPS.

    What I think the Nikon market needs now and is asking for (by quite a few) is either a real D700 successor or a true downsized D4 ..both being accomplished in a single body. From a marketing point of view, I think Nikon would have the sales numbers they are looking for if they designed a D800 built body with their latest designed AF system, AF sensors spread out across the frame, 6-7 FPS, maybe a built in vertical grip (or make it optional...whichever the way the market dictates) and a fast processor....and price it around $3500.00 . One could look at it as a D700 successor and others a real downsized revved up D4. A number of markets, both pro and advanced amateur would be addressed. My 1.5 cents.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    One nice thing about Florida in the winter is that you can shot a whole variety of sports without traveling very far . I can shoot Polo,Surfing,KiteBoarding,Baseball,Tennis ,Golf and Auto Racing all within 30 minutes of our home .

    Based on these experiences ..it seems like most of theses discussions are starting at the wrong end of the gear decisions . Its about the lenses . Lets assume you want long lenses …400-600 …you would also like them to be reasonably fast …F4 is a minimum. This is as much to isolate the subject with shallow DOF as anything . Shutter speeds need to be 1/1000 minimum better at 1/2000 . You will be working with a monopod …the larger the better.

    Ok now what exactly do you want in a body ….(1) large bright viewing screen …tight composition is a bitch when the subject is slicing across the frame (2) superb AF with the ability to follow focus and keep a series sharp. (close really does t cut it with sports ). (3) durability ..you can t baby a setup with a 600/4 and a monopod .

    I could go on but weight is essentially irrelevant (of course I hate lugging this kit to an event ….but its the lenses that kill me not the camera body ). Good luck using any EVF for this type of work . Sure you can do it ….I ve shot tennis many times with my Leica RF …but its one heck of a lot easier with a D4.

    Now in that context the D4S is a nice mid model update . Its a new sensor and new processor …so its not “the same “ . Do you need to run out and dump the D4 ..of course not ….but its a more competitive product ..should you be in the market . The high ISO discussions are pretty amazing …of course most don t need ISO 200K …but if its a EV better then it will show up at ISO6400 which you do need to keep the shutter speed at 1/2000 .

    I have had the opportunity to shoot the D4,D800E and Df at several of these venues this season . The Df just does t balance with the big glass ..handles poorly . The D800E is too slow ..trying to push those 36MP files . This does t mean that you have to be shooting a burst of 12-20 captures ..just that when you want to shoot ..the camera needs to be ready .

    I would have liked a slightly larger file to work with 24MP for sure as its nice to be able to crop but the D4 is just a beautiful piece of kit for shooting anything with long lenses and action in particular . The D4s will be better .

    The only thing competitive is the Canon 1Dx and it sure would be nice to have the new 200-400/4 with the built in 1.4X even at the crazy pricing level .

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Visited my pusher today. A carton filled to the brim with D4s sailed in through the door. "This is all I could get for now", he said, "and they are all sold". So there are still people out there with the money and the lust and/or need. Goooood

  4. #104
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    It is interesting that a company capable of making the F6 can't quite seem to translate that level performance and size of camera into digital.

    If such a camera existed it would be the God of Gear.

    However, Canon can't quite seem to make a digital EOS 1V either, so there must be some technical/financial barrier I do not understand.

    - Marc
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  5. #105
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    One nice thing about Florida in the winter is that you can shot a whole variety of sports without traveling very far . I can shoot Polo,Surfing,KiteBoarding,Baseball,Tennis ,Golf and Auto Racing all within 30 minutes of our home .

    Based on these experiences ..it seems like most of theses discussions are starting at the wrong end of the gear decisions . Its about the lenses . Lets assume you want long lenses …400-600 …you would also like them to be reasonably fast …F4 is a minimum. This is as much to isolate the subject with shallow DOF as anything . Shutter speeds need to be 1/1000 minimum better at 1/2000 . You will be working with a monopod …the larger the better.

    Ok now what exactly do you want in a body ….(1) large bright viewing screen …tight composition is a bitch when the subject is slicing across the frame (2) superb AF with the ability to follow focus and keep a series sharp. (close really does t cut it with sports ). (3) durability ..you can t baby a setup with a 600/4 and a monopod .

    I could go on but weight is essentially irrelevant (of course I hate lugging this kit to an event ….but its the lenses that kill me not the camera body ). Good luck using any EVF for this type of work . Sure you can do it ….I ve shot tennis many times with my Leica RF …but its one heck of a lot easier with a D4.

    Now in that context the D4S is a nice mid model update . Its a new sensor and new processor …so its not “the same “ . Do you need to run out and dump the D4 ..of course not ….but its a more competitive product ..should you be in the market . The high ISO discussions are pretty amazing …of course most don t need ISO 200K …but if its a EV better then it will show up at ISO6400 which you do need to keep the shutter speed at 1/2000 .

    I have had the opportunity to shoot the D4,D800E and Df at several of these venues this season . The Df just does t balance with the big glass ..handles poorly . The D800E is too slow ..trying to push those 36MP files . This does t mean that you have to be shooting a burst of 12-20 captures ..just that when you want to shoot ..the camera needs to be ready .

    I would have liked a slightly larger file to work with 24MP for sure as its nice to be able to crop but the D4 is just a beautiful piece of kit for shooting anything with long lenses and action in particular . The D4s will be better .

    The only thing competitive is the Canon 1Dx and it sure would be nice to have the new 200-400/4 with the built in 1.4X even at the crazy pricing level .
    Yeah Roger, up here in Michigan we need fast cameras to shoot people slipping on the ice and falling on their aSSes. Or action shots of pile-ups on the freeway due to sudden white outs.

    - Marc

  6. #106
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yeah Roger, up here in Michigan we need fast cameras to shoot people slipping on the ice and falling on their aSSes. Or action shots of pile-ups on the freeway due to sudden white outs.
    - Marc
    I would have thought one needs a fast camera for the extreme cold in order to simply get the shot and get the heck out of there (and into a warm place) as fast as possible. Isn't that incentive enough to purchase a couple of D4's? LOL!

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 6th March 2014 at 05:23.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I would have thought one needs a fast camera for the extreme cold in order to simply get the shot and get the heck out of there (and into a warm place) as fast as possible. Isn't that incentive enough a couple of D4's? LOL!

    Dave (D&A)
    Plus carrying them makes you sweat - even in extreme cold!

    Actually a great business case - we should sell to Nikon

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    It is interesting that a company capable of making the F6 can't quite seem to translate that level performance and size of camera into digital.

    If such a camera existed it would be the God of Gear.

    However, Canon can't quite seem to make a digital EOS 1V either, so there must be some technical/financial barrier I do not understand.

    - Marc
    It's worse, Marc. Below are top views of Contax N1 (2000) and N Digital (2002), the first 35mm DSLR. Apart from the LCD on the back and the integrated battery grip of the Digital, they are the same size and thickness.



    Then comes the F6 (2004) and the D700 (2008). One would think that technological progress would make it possible to shrink digital cameras somewhat. Apparently, it isn't, not in Sendai anyway:



    Fast forward then to 2012, 10 years after the Contax Digital was released to the market (it was actually designed in 2000). Now at least, there must be some progress. Of course it is. The D800 is even bigger than the D700:



    If Nikon launched a digital SLR in the F6 body, the only addition really needed would be WB adjustment, I think it would have been a huge success. I would even buy it without an LCD, although a tiny one to check exposure would be nice. It's prettier, has better ergonomics and is more compact than any "professional" SLR camera they have launched after it. I own a D700 and an F6. If I'm not working, I hardly ever use the D700, but lately I've shot a roll or two with the F6 more or less every week. It's simply such a lovely camera to work with.

    Nothing wrong with the D4s though. It's a tool. It's a machine. It's a digital F5... almost. Unfortunately, neither the D700 nor the D800 is a digital F6.

    Just in case you wonder: The photos are reasonably to scale.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Afternoon

    I'm pretty sure in this age of nano technology and micro computers that they can make it as small as they like but surely function must take a part? Whilst I see the benefit of small cameras, I own a few, when it comes to using decent sized lenses, I want the camera to be big enough to grab a hold of.

    For me, the D800 is just a perfect size, not so huge that it is a hassle to handle but not so small that I need to add a grip to hold it. Incidentally I love the RX1 but it's too small without the RRS grip, it feels like a toy albeit with superb image quality.

    So I for one like the size of current DSLR's, I enjoy the form and they balance nicely, obviously they might not for others.

    Mat
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Afternoon

    I'm pretty sure in this age of nano technology and micro computers that they can make it as small as they like but surely function must take a part? Whilst I see the benefit of small cameras, I own a few, when it comes to using decent sized lenses, I want the camera to be big enough to grab a hold of.

    For me, the D800 is just a perfect size, not so huge that it is a hassle to handle but not so small that I need to add a grip to hold it. Incidentally I love the RX1 but it's too small without the RRS grip, it feels like a toy albeit with superb image quality.

    So I for one like the size of current DSLR's, I enjoy the form and they balance nicely, obviously they might not for others.

    Mat

    I agree with you, but I will go to mirroless too:
    Having a high resolution mini camera with a full frame is not that revolutionary or practical.

    I do believe that EVF are the future, but not because they allow smaller full frame camera. The EVFs will have better function, will be less expensive to produce and allow innovation.

    If we take a look at the 50mm f1.4 Sigma ART or to the 55 Otus, the Nikon 800mm or the Canon 200-400, we know people that want very a light camera will buy the mirror-less full frame, just to leave it at home (with it's 70-200 f4.0 or f2.8 lens).

    Maybe if digital correction become good or marketing make people believe that they are "good enough" it will make sense.

    The Nikon 1 is build within reason, but I believe, that they over did the tinny sensor mantra (2.7x) and miscalculated the marketing punch or larger sensors.

    Finally, just like the iPhone vs a Galaxy the tinny model suffer from constraint battery power.

    Best regards,
    J. Duncan

  11. #111
    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Yeah Roger, up here in Michigan we need fast cameras to shoot people slipping on the ice and falling on their aSSes. Or action shots of pile-ups on the freeway due to sudden white outs.

    - Marc
    Did you know Grand Rapids was the 2nd snowiest city in the USA.

  12. #112
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Now you know why I won't go there. I'm a Desert Dweller. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    The main ergonomical problem I have with DSLRs isn't the thickness, but the lack of spacing between the eyepiece and the back. Our eyes are behind our cheeks, so the eyepiece needs to be a little behind it as well. Otherwise you end up having to tilt your head forward to get the eye up to the viewfinder. My experience is a more upright head position makes it easier to hold the camera steady at low speed, but that's probably just me. It's also a more comfortable day-long shooting position, with less neck and back strain. It's not the size or weight per se that matters, at least not to me. (To me the benefit of small size is mainly a matter of a smaller bag size.)

  14. #114
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    The F6 is the same weight as the D700 and it's 11 mm wider. However, because the main part of its body is shallower, the grip is deeper on the inside, leaving more space for large/long fingers. It gives a much more solid grip. After carrying the F6, picking up the D700 feels like picking up a lead filled soccer ball with one hand... or something like that

    I do know how to complain, don't I? Must admit I have made one or two useable photos with the D700 as well, so it can't be 100% hopeless

    Here's an interview with the designer of the top top Nikon cameras since the F3. Don't know if that includes the D300/700, but he did design the D800:

    Giorgetto Giugiaro & Nikon D3 - YouTube

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderly View Post
    Probably for the first time ever, a camera that has a higher available ISO number than the expected number of its shutter actuations!
    Who needs such low light shooting ability other than vampires?
    Some of us that shoot street night life? :-) But then I wouldn't carry a Nikon D4s for street night life shooting....

    - Ricardo

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Street night life photos have grain, so that would have to be added shooting with the D4s

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    D4s is awesome. as for hockey i need 1200 shots to get 30 good ones. a D4s is perfect for the job. blast away!

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    So, how's the NEW owner of D4s like or don't like their new toys?
    Looking to buy a good low mileage D4, but it seems like not many have upgraded to D4s, anyone?

    I have been waiting for bunch of D4 offered for sale, but don't see any US model on B&S. Is it simply because not many upgraded to D4s, or is it simply the new B&S forum? With the B&S board dead the way it is, I'm not hoping much anyways.

  19. #119
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Best Nikon I ever owned was the D3... must have been nuts to sell it. D4 refurb is on it's way to me. D800e will be on the market.

    The secondary benefit is the weight training..
    Stephen

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by stephen.s1 View Post
    Best Nikon I ever owned was the D3... must have been nuts to sell it. D4 refurb is on it's way to me. D800e will be on the market.

    The secondary benefit is the weight training..
    So you really change the D800e for a D4? What is the reason for you?

    Thanks

    Peter

  21. #121
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    After running thru the D4 refurb.. I'm going to keep the d800e and return the d4... and order a new d4s...

    They're two different animals..

    So, I'll put 'em both in my zoo.
    Stephen
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