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Thread: D4s... I hate this

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    D4s... I hate this

    I hate dragging big, heavy cameras around. Still, the top Nikon models have a special kind of soul that makes me feel, not think, that This is a Tool.



    Nikon Finally Pulls Back the Curtain on the D4s: A Less Noisy, Faster Version of the D4

    Nikon D4s First Impressions Review: Digital Photography Review

    I have the D2Xs, a D700 and an F6. They are certainly not among my most used cameras, but the user experience is still so great, I hesitate to sell them. With this, maybe the D3 falls within my limit, and in 6-7 years, who knows, maybe I have this fastest dinosaur on earth? Maybe
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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Best part - new RAW size S file format.
    Brad Husick

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    Senior Member Elderly's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Probably for the first time ever, a camera that has a higher available ISO number than the expected number of its shutter actuations!
    Who needs such low light shooting ability other than vampires?
    Ian.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I am disappointed. I expected a D4X at 24MP or a D5 at 36MP I guess. Time to take a second look at the Sony A's...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Nikon just follows their pattern:

    D3 - 12MP
    D3s - 12MP but faster, higher ISO etc.

    D4 - 16MP
    D4s - 16MP but faster, higher ISO etc.

    What else would one expect from Nikon? They became a very predictable vendor, although meanwhile VERY boring.
    Life is an ever changing journey
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I am disappointed. I expected a D4X at 24MP or a D5 at 36MP I guess. Time to take a second look at the Sony A's...
    Who says it won't come? It's still only February. But 24MP wouldn't make sense, other for a D5. 50MP would be more likely.

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    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I am disappointed. I expected a D4X at 24MP or a D5 at 36MP I guess. Time to take a second look at the Sony A's...
    Jack, join the rest of us. I sold my M Type 240 and some Leica lenses and now have two Sony a7R bodies and a couple (soon three if the "brown truck" arrives today) native Sony-Zeiss lenses. I sold all my Nikon gear a couple of years ago after a bout with sciatica. Oh, my back feels soooo much better!

    Joe
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    My disappoint over the D4 I currently own is the lack of added cross sensors for focus. I really thought that would be part of the upgrade, and believe it's the same as the D4. Which is excellent. Except when it's not, particularly in low light.

    On the video end Nikon is saying the D4s offers true HD Video as compared to the D4. Did they ever say the D4 did NOT offer true HD Video? No they didn't. And the camera, in fact, did not. Nothing close to the D800. So if the video is improved, it's really that they finally corrected the screwup of D4 video. Although if it's good HD quality at 60 fps, that's an upgrade over the D800. I'll believe it when I see it.

    In terms of improved noise characteristics, as stated earlier yes it's the implied quality of improvement at 'normal' high ISOs- 6400, 1200, and perhaps now 25,000. My D4 starts to fall apart over 8,000 ISO depending on the scene. If I could get the current quality of 8,000 at 16,000- that's a huge improvement. But worth switching out? Not at the moment for me.

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    But if you want one, here is a pre-order: Nikon D4s Digital SLR Camera B&H Photo Video
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I am disappointed. I expected a D4X at 24MP or a D5 at 36MP I guess. Time to take a second look at the Sony A's...

    I don't understand were you got that idea, everyone but Ken Rockwell knew that it will have 16mpixels, in particular because Nikon did say so in the pre announcement.

    I believe the Sony cameras are good, and lighter, but I am intrigued by your comment.

    I hoped for more in the autofocus performance area, in particular more cross type sensors and if possible dual cross types. I don't believe that this update will be enough to get to the Canon 1Dx level in good light.


    But we got what we got.

    Best regards,
    J. Duncan

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Tough crowd.

    If we consider the actual use these cameras are for … sports and other fast paced work often accompanied by electronic transfer of files to a news service or editorial dept., does 36 meg make any sense?

    I think what you are shelling out for here is an evolution of a highly proven platform able to sustain rugged reliable performance day in and day out.

    Of course, this doesn't preclude a "studio" version with a much higher meg count … but I'd even question that in the face of the D800. Maybe for a high volume production studio, but not sure what else?

    Oh well, I'm long out of the Canon/Nikon wars.

    - Marc
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    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Tough crowd.

    If we consider the actual use these cameras are for … sports and other fast paced work often accompanied by electronic transfer of files to a news service or editorial dept., does 36 meg make any sense?

    I think what you are shelling out for here is an evolution of a highly proven platform able to sustain rugged reliable performance day in and day out.

    Of course, this doesn't preclude a "studio" version with a much higher meg count … but I'd even question that in the face of the D800. Maybe for a high volume production studio, but not sure what else?

    Oh well, I'm long out of the Canon/Nikon wars.

    - Marc
    "but I'd even question that in the face of the D800. Maybe for a high volume production studio, but not sure what else?"

    Marc,I think a rugged D series body with much better ergonomics would sell,I would offload my D800E for one if Nikon released it..

    Rob

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    "but I'd even question that in the face of the D800. Maybe for a high volume production studio, but not sure what else?"

    Marc,I think a rugged D series body with much better ergonomics would sell,I would offload my D800E for one if Nikon released it..

    Rob
    Got ya Rob. Prior to moving to Sony 35mm for various reasons, I used a D3 and D3X, and totally understand the attraction.

    - Marc

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Writing is on the wall. Nikon will puddle along canon goes video direction and Sony wants to be Number 1 or 2. I went with the innovator. I'm really liking the Sony but I want to see more from them. We need more FE glass

    This is great for the sports crowd . Just not my need. I was hoping for more sensor power and better live view kind of cam. Will see what's next from them.
    Last edited by Guy Mancuso; 26th February 2014 at 16:25.
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    It looks like another solid, serviceable, top of the line Nikon camera to me.

    I have not desired a top of the line Nikon since the F3 because everything after that, at the top of the line, was obviously intended to fulfill someone else's wish list. But that doesn't stop them from being very solid, serviceable tools.

    I'm pretty happy with what I've chosen to buy these days.
    Now the problem is more when to find time to use it.

    G

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    Senior Member segedi's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    I sold all my Nikon gear...
    Someone needs an updated avatar

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    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by segedi View Post
    Someone needs an updated avatar
    And hair dye and some cosmetic surgery!

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Looks like the perfect solution to those who are today the d4 pro body shooters.
    It addresses all of the issues that folks have complained about.
    And one other thing the surveys demonstrate is that these shooters DO NOT WANT file sized larger than 16MP.

    Lately I have been shooting the Df quite a bit and frankly I wonder exactly what I was doing with all those megapixels I lost.
    No, the Sony is not for me.
    It is not innovation for the market the D4s is aimed at, it is crap.
    I met with a group of "action and nature" photographers last night.
    They are universally enthusiastic about it.
    I guess if I shot birds with long lenses, or (hockey, football, basketball) games, or motocross events, or snowboard stuff I would be too.
    But I don't.
    But for what I do, the D800 and Df do just fine. The a7r makes my eyes bleed, gives me a headache, and is just too slow to use.
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 27th February 2014 at 09:19.
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Writing is on the wall. Nikon will puddle along canon goes video direction and Sony wants to be Number 1 or 2. I went with the innovator. I'm really liking the Sony but I want to see more from them. We need more FE glass
    Sony will need to find a path to profitability whereas Nikon is already solidly there.
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Looks like the perfect solution to those who are today the d4 pro body shooters.
    It addresses all of the issues that folks have complained about.
    And one other thing the surveys demonstrate is that these shooters DO NOT WANT file sized larger than 16MP.

    Lately I have been shooting the Df quite a bit and frankly I wonder exactly what I was doing with all those megapixels I lost.
    No, the Sony is not for me.
    It is not innovation for the market it is aimed at, it is crap.
    I met with a group of "action and nature" photographers last night.
    They are universally enthusiastic about it.
    I guess if I shot birds with long lenses, or (hockey, football, basketball) games, or motocross events, or snowboard stuff I would be too.
    But I don't.
    But for what I do, the D800 and Df do just fine. The a7r makes my eyes bleed, gives me a headache, and is just too slow to use.
    -bob
    I will agree with you about your evaluation of the D4s, but I will add a nuance.
    We don't know if they solve the issues, just thar they address them. In particular they continue to use the same AF module (no more cross sensors). I will say that the jury is still out in this one. But they DID address it as you say.

    Best regards,
    J. Duncan

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    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    No, the Sony is not for me.
    It is not innovation for the market it is aimed at, it is crap.
    -bob
    Tough crowd (spoken in my best Rodney Dangerfield voice)!

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    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by jduncan View Post
    I will agree with you about your evaluation of the D4s, but I will add a nuance.
    We don't know if they solve the issues, just thar they address them. In particular they continue to use the same AF module (no more cross sensors). I will say that the jury is still out in this one. But they DID address it as you say.

    Best regards,
    J. Duncan
    True, They addressed them, now we need to see if the package actually gets delivered.
    -bob

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    With the introduction of new, advanced fully electronic cameras (E-M1, GH3, A7, X-T1), it's been so easy to write off these dinosaurs that on paper are inferior in almost every aspect. But for some kinds of photography, there's no competition at all. I went to Singapore Airshow a couple of weeks ago, bringing the D300, the D2Xs and the GH3. First attempt to shoot aerobatic display with the Panasonic: of a 20 shot burst, the subject was within the frame in 2 of them. Back in the bag.

    I love the GH3. It's one of the best cameras I've ever had. But when it comes to certain kinds of photography, it's simply not there. I tried the A7 too a while ago. Nice camera. I'm sure the image quality is perfect. No lenses unfortunately, and the viewfinder, although relevant by EVF terms... I happened to have the Contax RX with me when I tried it. Game, set and match, 6-0, 6-0, 6-0. Ergonomics: same thing.

    Yes, many of these new cameras are very nice, and most of all compact, lightweight and cheap, cheap, cheap. But nice compared to what? When a 20 year old Contax has better ergonomics than the latest hyper-camera from Sony, there is something wrong, at least in my book. With the Contax, I can even focus precisely without filling the viewfinder with orange grunch. I'm sure the orange stuff works fine, but user experience? Evaluation of colour and composition? Switch off the grunch, there went the focus, wait a minute...

    Yes, I'm ranting again, back to the D4s. Nikon know who their customers are, and as Bob points out: they make money on this. 16MP is perfect too. Batch processing 3,000 36MP RAW files from a car race takes... too long. Client is waiting.

    I can't afford this thing, but D3 is getting cheaper. D3X too. And I have the D700 too, which for some reason I don't love that much. You probably won't see my Nikons up for sale just yet
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I shoot my daughter's high school cross country/track team. I have tried Olympus E3 and Sony A900/99, and Nikon D3. There is just not comparison! Nikon pro bodies are just so reliable to achieve consistent results. I tried D800, it couldn't keep up with the D3 either. Having said that, with newer high MP sensor, Nikon does need to improve the accuracy of the AF system with more and accurate cross sensors!

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    No, the Sony is not for me.
    It is not innovation for the market it is aimed at, it is crap.
    I met with a group of "action and nature" photographers last night.
    They are universally enthusiastic about it.
    I guess if I shot birds with long lenses, or (hockey, football, basketball) games, or motocross events, or snowboard stuff I would be too.
    But I don't.
    But for what I do, the D800 and Df do just fine. The a7r makes my eyes bleed, gives me a headache, and is just too slow to use.
    -bob
    I have to reply to this comment. Firstly, I TOTALLY understand where you're coming from -- I don't particularly care for the Sony either, at least for the type of shooting I do. But I think it crosses a line to say it's crap. IMHO it is far from crap, at least from a technical POV to the quality of file it is capable of delivering. We -- meaning you and I -- may not like the EVF, the UI and even the diminutive form factor for our German sausage sized fingers. But while those are negative attributes for us, they may well be perceived as features by other shooters.

    I've only shot briefly with them myself, and saw no reason whatsoever to abandon my Nikons as many others have. But I can see where if I had some legacy M glass or specialized C brand glass I wanted to shoot with, the A7 or the A7r just might be a very viable solution to getting a good sensor behind that glass.

    Just sayin
    Jack
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    The sony is not crap as far as several types of shooters are concerned, but it IS crap in the market the D4s is aimed at, at least as far a several sports and nature shooters are concerned. One shooter, the one who complained about its jpegs, shoots hockey and finds that the viewfinder refresh rate is just not up to the task of following a puck on the ice.
    My screwdrivers are all crap at driving nails, so is a jackhammer.
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I have to reply to this comment. Firstly, I TOTALLY understand where you're coming from -- I don't particularly care for the Sony either, at least for the type of shooting I do. But I think it crosses a line to say it's crap. IMHO it is far from crap, at least from a technical POV to the quality of file it is capable of delivering. We -- meaning you and I -- may not like the EVF, the UI and even the diminutive form factor for our German sausage sized fingers. But while those are negative attributes for us, they may well be perceived as features by other shooters.

    I've only shot briefly with them myself, and saw no reason whatsoever to abandon my Nikons as many others have. But I can see where if I had some legacy M glass or specialized C brand glass I wanted to shoot with, the A7 or the A7r just might be a very viable solution to getting a good sensor behind that glass.

    Just sayin
    Ah, the "it" in my post was not very clear.
    Crap for the market that the D4s is aimed at.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I expected a D4X at 24MP or a D5 at 36MP I guess.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Ah, the "it" in my post was not very clear.
    Crap for the market that the D4s is aimed at.
    Ah. That makes sense
    Jack
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by sandrahmart View Post
    I expected a D4X at 24MP or a D5 at 36MP I guess.
    Actually it would have been really neat if it were something in the 54Mpx range with a bin-down low-res option, but there are some viciously competing design criteria.
    The problem with binning is that it really doesn't give you as clean of a high-iso file as a larger sensor well does.
    -bob
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    ... But I can see where if I had some legacy M glass or specialized C brand glass I wanted to shoot with, the A7 or the A7r just might be a very viable solution to getting a good sensor behind that glass. ...
    IMO, not for M-mount lenses on average. But for Leica R lenses it's fantastic. That's really the only reason I bought the A7, and it's so good with these lenses I'm considering selling nearly everything else.

    Note: nearly ...

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    One shooter, the one who complained about its jpegs, shoots hockey and finds that the viewfinder refresh rate is just not up to the task of following a puck on the ice.

    -bob
    Same problem as with the airshow, and I'm afraid this is not only about refresh rates, but they way the viewfinder refreshes. The movements of a puck or an airplane are fluid but may change suddenly. An electronic viewfinder never refreshes fluidly, it's the nature of digital. However fast it may be, there will always be a certain degree of "staccato", which is tiring to the eyes if one has to follow movements in the viewfinder closely hour after hour (I've used EVFs for 4 years now).

    Subjects that move along a predictable pattern, I have no problems following with an EVF, even sometimes when the EVF blacks out during short bursts and between frames. Unpredictable patterns I suspect will be hard to follow even if the refresh rate increases tenfold. It's more to it than speed.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I'm with Bob and Jack. The pixel fixation doesn't interest me and the Nikon (regardless of emotional feelings) really hits the image quality vs resolution/gizmos in my book. I also have manly sized hands/fingers so the toy sized Sony doesn't work for me at all.

    I'm biased and admit it. If I want 36mp I'll crop my 60mp digital back!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    While this is not the camera I would choose for video (no EVF, among other things), they do make some very cool demos when they launch tools like this:

    https://vimeo.com/87541338

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I'm with Bob and Jack. The pixel fixation doesn't interest me and the Nikon (regardless of emotional feelings) really hits the image quality vs resolution/gizmos in my book. I also have manly sized hands/fingers so the toy sized Sony doesn't work for me at all.

    I'm biased and admit it. If I want 36mp I'll crop my 60mp digital back!


    No matter how deep into the new tech stuff I get, (and it is fun) … there is a nagging feeing of being a defiant little kid resisting the adult cameras

    I admit to being struck by the Canon 1Dx when launched … FF 18 meg, 2 CF slots, high ISO, lightening quick AF, fit my big hands, … sounded just right.

    Then my weary old shoulders and back started screaming "Noooooooooooo! Not again. We'll punish you if you indulge".

    - Marc

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Same problem as with the airshow, and I'm afraid this is not only about refresh rates, but they way the viewfinder refreshes. The movements of a puck or an airplane are fluid but may change suddenly. An electronic viewfinder never refreshes fluidly, it's the nature of digital. However fast it may be, there will always be a certain degree of "staccato", which is tiring to the eyes if one has to follow movements in the viewfinder closely hour after hour (I've used EVFs for 4 years now).

    Subjects that move along a predictable pattern, I have no problems following with an EVF, even sometimes when the EVF blacks out during short bursts and between frames. Unpredictable patterns I suspect will be hard to follow even if the refresh rate increases tenfold. It's more to it than speed.
    This is my predicament too. Fast moving low light "Performing Arts" type shooting among other things like the occasional fast moving sports shots, had me thinking twice and three times about moving over to the Sony. There are a number of things to admire about the system but I keep asking myself above and beyond all else....is it the right tool for the jobs I want it to do? So far it's been more "no's" than "yes", even though for other applications it's ground breaking and often ideal.

    It's been said a million times, but it simply comes down to selecting the right tool for the job and what feel right for a given type of photographic endeavor or assignment.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Why would the A7 ever be compared to the D4 for the purposes of what the latter was designed for? Its like saying Ferraris are 'crap' because they can't plough fields. It just doesn't need to be stated.

    Back to the D4S, I can absolutely see why they released an updated D4, because that's perhaps the way to see this; not so much a new camera but an update.

    A high MP D-something is surely coming, but all I have to say is 'lenses'.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Why would the A7 ever be compared to the D4 for the purposes of what the latter was designed for? Its like saying Ferraris are 'crap' because they can't plough fields. It just doesn't need to be stated.

    Back to the D4S, I can absolutely see why they released an updated D4, because that's perhaps the way to see this; not so much a new camera but an update.

    A high MP D-something is surely coming, but all I have to say is 'lenses'.
    Not so much the A7 specifically, but the concept, and I'm sure Sony will develop models that have the fast frame rate and the AF. The A99 and E-M1 would probably more relevant comparisons. On paper, they look suitable for action photography, in the real world, not so much. When they launched the A99, they even used some sports shots, seen through the viewfinder, to market the camera.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    So I guess 11 Fps makes this the great sports camera. How soon you all forget where you came from. I shot better sports without a motor drive and a hand crank. One word spoiled .

    What is even more revealing is the 5 minute arm chair comments with the Sony. Have you guys actually shot the damn thing in these situations. NO or even figured out how

    How about doing runway all day long with a adapted lens. Seriously where in the hell did Sony even enter into this conversation or anyone say the Sony was intended for this type of work.

    Tell you what meet me at the next football game bring your D4s and I'll still smoke your *** with a hand crank. REALLY did not know gear actually shot images.

    Sorry it just had to be said from a guy that shot sports with even MF camera. Shot aerials with a 4x5 tethered to a helicopter. It's about talent not the gear. The only thing gear does is give you your options to help make it happen. It's up to you to score with it

    I probably should not even post this. But this thread is exactly what's the worst thing about forums. We should really delete it to be honest. Your putting the gear as the premium and not the artist its a typical let's machine gun the **** out of it and see what we get mentality.

    Is the D4s good at it , why yes my dear it's the best damn machine gun you can buy. No question it is.

    I'm going golfing I read enough
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    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    So I guess 11 Fps makes this the great sports camera. How soon you all forget where you came from. I shot better sports without a motor drive and a hand crank. One word spoiled .

    What is even more revealing is the 5 minute arm chair comments with the Sony. Have you guys actually shot the damn thing in these situations. NO or even figured out how

    How about doing runway all day long with a adapted lens. Seriously where in the hell did Sony even enter into this conversation or anyone say the Sony was intended for this type of work.

    Tell you what meet me at the next football game bring your D4s and I'll still smoke your *** with a hand crank. REALLY did not know gear actually shot images.

    Sorry it just had to be said from a guy that shot sports with even MF camera. Shot aerials with a 4x5 tethered to a helicopter. It's about talent not the gear. The only thing gear does is give you your options to help make it happen. It's up to you to score with it

    I probably should not even post this. But this thread is exactly what's the worst thing about forums. We should really delete it to be honest. Your putting the gear as the premium and not the artist its a typical let's machine gun the **** out of it and see what we get mentality.

    Is the D4s good at it , why yes my dear it's the best damn machine gun you can buy. No question it is.

    I'm going golfing I read enough
    Guy,you've probably forgotten more than I know about photography.. but I wouldnt argue with this comment,It reminds of something I read before,(maybe here on this forum),and that is that pro photography is about finding and applying solutions.which comes from experience and skill.not just gear.

    Rob

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I think you're a bit unfair here, Guy. In my case, I pointed out that an EVF is a disadvantage for some kinds of sport. I've tried it countless times the last 4 years, and an optical viewfinder is far superior. I couldn't care less about the fps, but I know it's important to many. I never use more than 5fps anyway and more often than not I'm on single shots, also for sports. Manual focus lenses too, even a 500mm mirror. But I mostly prefer what has now become a "traditional" form factor, which is one of the reasons for using Panasonic, even after 30 years with Olympus OM. I thought I wanted to go back to that shape, but for work, I don't.

    Why Sony is here should be obvious. They have launched a camera that is suitable for lots of professional uses, but has a totally different form factor than what has been dominant for more than 20 years, different viewfinder and different ergonomics. It's interesting to discuss where the limitations are, which style of camera is suitable for what kind of work. Obviously that will change as technology evolves, but that shouldn't stop us from discussing what is available at the moment and how they compare.

    I do shoot sports with all kinds of old and new cameras, if I have time and no obligations. But if I'm at a car race and someone pays me to take photos of a certain car, I must use the gear that is the most suitable. That car might crash on the second lap, so I must assume that I have only one chance. The perfect camera to get that shot would be the D4s, but since I can't afford that, the D2Xs does the job beautifully. I would love to have something that was half the weight and size, like the A7, and some time in the future, a Sony or a Panasonic will probably do the job. But right now, they don't. Not for me.

    And I am disturbed by the orange grunch. Colours are a part of the composition and if half the viewfinder is filled with alien stuff, it's harder to "see" the image, at least for me.

  42. #42
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I was being a wee bit sarcastic. We can't compare a 36mpx cam intended for higher quality capture to a cam clearly designed for speed and high ISO. Why the sony even came up is very wrong comparison.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Never seen the orange crunch
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Never seen the orange crunch
    The manual focus assist stuff. Can it have other colours?

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I was being a wee bit sarcastic. We can't compare a 36mpx cam intended for higher quality capture to a cam clearly designed for speed and high ISO. Why the sony even came up is very wrong comparison.
    So the A7 is too off in this comparison. Maybe it is. Another niche product from Sony. But that's exactly what makes the D4s so strong. If you don't need more than 16MP, and many don't, the camera doesn't have other limitations than size, weight and price, and price is relative, since these Nikons hold their value amazingly well. This kind of camera works just as well at sports events, for portraits, at weddings, PJ work, runways, press conferences etc., and there are so many lenses available for it that there's hardly any need at all that cannot be taken care of. It's a universal camera if there ever was one. Some of us need that.

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    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Just my two cents, but currently, there is nothing in the Sony lineup that can compare to the D4 / D4s and the only camera out there that is the direct competition for the D4 / D4s would be the Canon 1D-X.

    These cameras are for the sports shooters (like me) and the only glass I am keeping for my Nikon is my 24-70, 70-200 and my 300 f2.8. The remainder of my gear is aimed towards what I use it for, so my Sony gear has both Zeiss and Leica lenses, my Leica is the same, and my Phase DF has my LS lenses for when I shoot the bodybuilders, etc.

    Now where is that 2cents emoticon when you need it.
    Bryan

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I would really liked to have seen a bit more resolution and removal of the AA filter. My intended use is for it to go on the back of my 500/4 VR, with and without TCs, to shoot wildlife. I'm not terribly interested in "head-and-shoulder" type wildlife photography, but want more of a stopped-down inclusive, environmental image that marries subject and landscape. Since print sizes are bigger I feel 16MP is just a touch subpar and doesn't make it an obvious candidate over the D800E. The sweet spot would be higher resolution, still low noise so I can bump up the ISO and get a good looking print out of it while capturing motion yet shooting at f/16, better frame rate than the D800 -- but I don't need 10+ fps. 6-8 is plenty. It just misses the sweet spot for me. Frankly, I think I'm inclined to get a D3x instead. Or just stick with the D800E...

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    I would really liked to have seen a bit more resolution and removal of the AA filter. My intended use is for it to go on the back of my 500/4 VR, with and without TCs, to shoot wildlife. I'm not terribly interested in "head-and-shoulder" type wildlife photography, but want more of a stopped-down inclusive, environmental image that marries subject and landscape. Since print sizes are bigger I feel 16MP is just a touch subpar and doesn't make it an obvious candidate over the D800E. The sweet spot would be higher resolution, still low noise so I can bump up the ISO and get a good looking print out of it while capturing motion yet shooting at f/16, better frame rate than the D800 -- but I don't need 10+ fps. 6-8 is plenty. It just misses the sweet spot for me. Frankly, I think I'm inclined to get a D3x instead. Or just stick with the D800E...
    Jan the D3X is very slow in RAW,I would take a D800 before a D3x.

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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    Morning,

    Interesting discussion, I am also surprised to see comparisons between Sony and the D4s, it does seem strange to decide one isn't enough of an advancement so will look at the other, horses for courses though! I'd say if you needed a D4s then the 1DX is the only comparison.

    For me, having used the A7r a few times now, although not in anger, I don't see it as a pro camera, sure, a pro can use it and take great shots but it isn't a system. It is difficult to read about crappy adapters, the fact adapters are needed at all, sticking bits of felt inside them, wondering about how they are getting loose and replacing for different ones off ebay, that is in no way a professional solution. I find it funny to see a small camera celebrated for size and weight mounted on huge rails, supporting the lenses separately in order to get a sharp image!

    It's obviously great for those with old lenses who want a modern solution but until theres a proper line up of native lenses it won't be worth looking at. I have read a lot of Guy's posts on leaving Nikon and I think he's a brave man, I'm sure there's a part of his decision that was just about making a change and enjoying the challenges a new system brings but I remember reading a post of his about how he had a mixture of none nikon lenses or only 1 and the rest were adapted Leica, Sigma or Zeiss etc. I remember thinking that I am in the same position but at least they are native mount! To move from that to a couple of lenses that fit and the rest that rely on third party adaptors of varying quality, just seems very brave, to then use them in a pro setting, well of course you can get shots but why make life difficult for yourself? I think there's potential and the quality of the 55 appears superb but it has a long way to go.

    The D4s is a pro solution if you need the speed and ISO as already mentioned, fast, rugged, weather sealed, huge battery life, it does what it was designed for. People mention size and weight but I'd also mention balance, if you're shooting sports then you've likely got something long on the front and a monopod or a tripod, a tiny camera just appears unbalanced in those situations.

    Anyway, it's all about your own choices and the output, does it really matter what you use if you like the results? I guess not!

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: D4s... I hate this

    I am not a pro and neither intend I to shoot the D4s or the 1Dx as I have fortunately better things to do with my money. Would I need a workhorse camera as Pro and not want (be allowed) to rely on anything which could let me down during work, I would get one of them.

    BUT I think it is safe to say that the only real comparison of the D4s can be the 1DX - which BTW I would prefer just from the specs and the sensor and my personal experience with both systems.

    The A7/A7r - as great as they may be - they never were designed as cameras for (and I meanwhile hate to use this word) Pro usage. This is alone reflected from the battery life and the AF speed and capability. Maybe these types of cameras will evolve and I am almost sure they will, as the system around them and then they would become maybe really comparable.

    Of course it is right if you are a good photographer you can almost every camera and lens combo make work perfectly for you and we see this in some examples only here in this forum. But finally this does not make a new system a pro system - at least not IMHO.

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