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Thread: C1 v Lightroom

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    C1 v Lightroom

    I have about had it with C1 stability issues on my MBP. I have the newest and fastest MBP with max (16G) ram, the newest video, and still get random -- and moreover, frequent -- crashes.

    Soooooo... I am seriously considering moving back to -- dare I admit it -- Lightroom.

    My concerns: I like C1 workflow, love the quality of conversion, hate the instability. With old LR, I never quite fell in love with the parametric adjustments and vague masking as i like more precision and control. I also hated their cataloging methodology as opposed to C1's sessions (C1 sessions fit into my workflow exactly the same way I work). But I suspect it's at least stable.

    What say you Nikon shooters that use or have used both?
    Jack
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Jack,

    I am obviously one of the crazy guys using LR, Aperture and C1.

    I meanwhile moved my whole workflow to Aperture and LR - Aperture mainly for import and file storage etc, LR additionally for some editing work. Both are VERY stable with D800E and also all other cameras I use(ed) like EM1, EM5, Fuji XPro1, XE2, XT1, all my Nikons till D800E, etc.

    I quite often have stability issues with C1, which IMHO comes from the file system management and import (however they call these modules). It can take ages to import and sync and many times crashes.

    My current workflow:

    1) import everything with Aperture - I always store outside Aperture (not in Aperture Library). This way one can use easily multiple libraries.
    2) do first scan/delete of files in Aperture, also do sorting, numbering - I love the structured approach from Aperture with projects.
    3) import all files into LR (without copying) generating previews + smart previews, which later lets you edit without files online (just in catalog - or library as Aperture calls this).
    4) Do editing either in Aperture or LR - just where I can get better results. Aperture and LR are equally good IMHO for D800E, although LR might have a slight advantage because one can individually choose camera and lens profiles. Aperture does this kind of automatically (you see the pop when image gets read from library and preview is first built). Especially great I find LR for Fuji RAW files, because you can use different Fuji film modes for RAW files, which delivers outstanding results for most of my demands without having to ply too long in any RAW editing.

    C1 I am using very rarely, main reason it crashes and freezes too often on MBP. Really a shame, as otherwise from editing C1 really shines. But to be honest, LR and Aperture are pretty similar WRT IQ for most cameras.

    Hope this helps,

    Peter

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Jack

    I have both and have the same issues, the problem for me is the D800/E files are just so much better from C1. I can get close in LR but it isn't the same, I prefer the C1 workflow too and the tethering. I wish C1 was more reliable for sure, I have never had any issues with LR.

    Mat

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    My main problem with LR is Adobe's terrible saturation control. It produces really ugly results. So I set LR to low saturation, low vividness (or whatever they call it) and saturate manually in Viveza. It looks much, much better. I suspect part of the reason Nikon output is especially bad in LR may be that the captures aren't strongly separated by hue so need more saturation during processing, which in turn pushes a poor saturation method to where it really shows its weakness.

    Obviously, using a plugin isn't a viable option for large batch runs...

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Jack,

    I started using C1 back when Adobe didn't convert Fuji X files well, and used it both with the Fuji and the D800. I was never too keen on the C1 color rendition with those cameras, which looks pleasant but not particularly accurate. Stability issues made C1 one big nightmare to use.

    Now I am using LR for both cameras, and I am very happy with it. I don't do much editing in LR, so masking functions are not important to me. The image quality is great with both cameras, and there are zero stability issues.

    The C1 sessions are nice, but I think you can emulate them in LR1 without much effort. Just open a new catalog for each "session" and save it in a folder with the images. You can also combine catalogs or export part of your catalog into new catalogs, which gives you a lot of flexibility in organizing your images.

    Martin
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    I just downloaded CO7Pro to test out. The results are nice but I'm sure with a little work and/or filters using custom recipes I can get images to look exactly the same for all intent and purpose from either Aperture or Lightroom. I did notice that there was a glitch while importing from my SD card where C1 chose to import duplicates of certain images and failed to import some images altogether. I will say all this about it and it was my issue with C1 before. All the image quality in the world will not make me continue to use buggy, incomplete, or unstable software. Media Pro while seeming like a good idea and maybe adding Lightroom/Aperture level functionality to C1 seems just as glitchy and incomplete to me.

    I guess that's the largest benefit to using Lightroom and Aperture for me. They just work without fuss, all these sessions, catalogs, etc. You just select the image from the folder you place it in and go to the Develop/Adjustment module. There's also the larger plug-in support and lens profiles for cameras I actually own/use. I am/was a Sony and Leica shooter and needless to say C1 lens profile support is abysmal for anything that isn't Phase One, Canon, Nikon, Leaf, Mamiya, or SK.

    The IQ results are certainly excellent right off the gate with a good image in C1. The interface is much better than it was in version 4 (the last one I used.) I don't want to build a lens profile or LCC for every lens I own. I don't have to with Lightroom because they are either there or coming soon. So for me C1 will ONLY be an option for some smaller jobs on paid work where the absolute highest IQ is the goal. For personal projects and pictures I will stick to Lightroom/Aperture but as for which is better - it's all personal preference. I use Lightroom primarily but I moved to Aperture after Lightroom 2 before returning to Lightroom for version 4.
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Jack

    I have both and have the same issues, the problem for me is the D800/E files are just so much better from C1. I can get close in LR but it isn't the same, I prefer the C1 workflow too and the tethering. I wish C1 was more reliable for sure, I have never had any issues with LR.

    Mat
    Phuc. My issue is I do everything toward ultimate IQ or look, and that's what I get from C1 and never did get from LR or ACR -- and I assume the conversion engine is the same in ACR as it is in LR? I hate the lack of stability in C1, but it seems I'm left with no real option other than to continue on with it. I see a lot of you seem to get results you like with LR, but I just can't quite get there in ACR at present.
    Jack
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    Senior Member RVB's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Phuc. My issue is I do everything toward ultimate IQ or look, and that's what I get from C1 and never did get from LR or ACR -- and I assume the conversion engine is the same in ACR as it is in LR? I hate the lack of stability in C1, but it seems I'm left with no real option other than to continue on with it. I see a lot of you seem to get results you like with LR, but I just can't quite get there in ACR at present.

    Jack,whenever I have stability issues in C1P7 (which i love to use..) they're always sorted by thrashing the preference files.. works pretty much every time..

    I also find (on OS X) that is works better in non full screen mode..

    Rob

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    I use both C1 and LR

    I love how C1 converts the raw files from Nikon and my M4/3 cameras. LR looks more grey and flat under comparison. I would do my post in C1 then process them into a specific folder.

    then I boot up LR and automatically imports from that folder. I do the final touches in LR like contrast/clarity adjustments, then print/upload form there. I love LR's easy printing module and all the plugins into 500px, Flickr, etc.

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Jack, pardon me for answering a question you didn't ask, but I think NX is underrated. I can easily do things with it that are hard for me duplicate with C1 and LR. Admittedly, C1 was so difficult for me to learn that I don't think I ever really got it. I really like the color booster feature in NX. I usually can get the color where I want it without things getting weird. Also it contains a lot of the Nik engine in easy to use form. I usually run my files through NX before PS. I think Nikon put a lot of work into the package, and because it's easy to use, some people think it's not as good.

    I think I probably just revealed myself as a Philistine.
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Have used C1 and LR and migrated to LR. Never a big fan of how C1 treated Nikon files, stability issues (especially when tethered) and various small quirks I never took to.

    That said, I just use LR for capture when tethered (see below) and for cataloging and gross adjustments so clients (or self) can get a better approximation of what finished file would look like. ALL my files see PS layers anyway. I want the finesse in post-processing that PS offers.

    That said, I don't use LR as the god's intended. I use a DIY sessions method similar to C1. Every shoot gets it's on catalog. Raw files, catalog, previews, any large PSB files, etc., from any given shoot are all in one folder.

    In this manner, much like C1's sessions, I can easily clone the capture folder to backup drives (I shoot on location) during shooting breaks and backup easily back in office.

    Tethering on LR direct is SLOW and like C1 (with Nikon & Canon) unreliable, BUT using Nikon CC2Pro or Sofortbild as the ingest program for hot-foldering by LR works like a charm.

    Either program will ingest a 800e file over US2 (not 3) faster than LR will ingest a D3s file. Also rock-stable and quick to re-acquire when switching camera on/off. NO LR or C1 reboots, etc.

    NX2 works well, but not a fan of UI and processing speed. I also need something like LR that clients or assistants with 5 minutes 'training' can easily grasp for rating images, etc.

    None of these program are perfect, really just a matter of working with one that best fit your workflow.

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Capture One are taking a survey to help improve their product.

    Maybe this can help lead to the changes you seek.

    Capture One User Feedback
    Stop chasing gear, start chasing photos instead.

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    I have simple needs.
    First just the general handling of files, rating and sorting, applying metadata, and ultimately getting down to the few that will get further respect.
    I have fairly recently abandoned C1 except for the 1 in 10 files that it might possibly improve beyond that which can be has in C1.
    At first I thought simply that C1 was just "better" than lightroom, but after working with LR for a bit, it seems to me that you just have to approach processing a little differently. I won't say which is absolutely better, but almost always I can process a file with either that exceeds my needs.
    Did I like the C1 workflow better?, yes I did. However, shooting 10-12 k images per year, the C1 attempt at catalogues was just a heartbreak, really a total fail. They bought media pro but never integrated it with c1, just continues to bring out version after version of buggy software where some of the bugs go back at least three years.
    Mostly because I think that Phase One has bitten off more than it can chew with its limited development staff, I think it is a lost cause.
    -bob

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    I bought LR a couple weeks ago so still getting the hang of it. I went through 2000 images today and it went very well. Not sure how it is with Nikon files but with Sonys so far looks pretty good. Several features I really like but more important all my glass is supported and my cams. I can't say that with C1 so that forced me to buy it. Will see how it goes but I did do a internal comparison an liked the LR file better. I might do a report later on it.
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    So much of this image quality thing is just too subjective. Measurable differences would be better to qualify which is better.
    I am getting a bit jaded in that attempt to achieve perfection so that I can get the best image when viewed under a magnifying glass.
    I think I better just do a better job at getting the best image. IQ is already superb, so superb +/- is still superb.
    Nobody has ever told me that they wanted an image because of its IQ, but they want it because of just how it looks.
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 13th August 2014 at 04:46.
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I bought LR a couple weeks ago so still getting the hang of it. I went through 2000 images today and it went very well. Not sure how it is with Nikon files but with Sonys so far looks pretty good. Several features I really like but more important all my glass is supported and my cams. I can't say that with C1 so that forced me to buy it. Will see how it goes but I did do a internal comparison an liked the LR file better. I might do a report later on it.
    I will be interested in such a report!

    I do find LR and Aperture both pretty good today for most camera RAW's. Sometimes Aperture, sometimes LR having the slight edge.

    What I like about LR are the number of profiles for cameras and lenses. And also the feature of LR mobile for iPhone and iPad is pretty cool - allows full editing via creative cloud - which service you have to buy in unfortunately to get this.

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    As a PC user I find that 7.2.1 or 7.2.2 very stable. Not sure why the Mac side is having so much trouble. I am not using win 8.1 for any production work, however when tethered with the Surface pro 2 or 3, I have C1 open and again very stable.

    As for differences between L1 and C1, as user of both on the Nikon files, I can a bit more on areas I find to be strengths or weakness.

    1. LR is catalog only, I don't want to be forced into only a Catalog, as I have no desire to have all my images in a catalog, for my style of shooting, it just makes not sense. C1 with it's session and catalog setup is my preference.

    2. I find now I rarely use CC for much other than a slight tweak of a file and I do the vast majority of my work in LR or C1 as both have excellent tool sets.

    3. C1's implementation of adjustment layers, again a plus since you can turn off each individual layer to see the effects, in LR with the adjustment brush it's currently an all on or all off. This makes is hard to really tweak an individual layer since you can't see only it's effect on a file

    4. LR has noise, reduction available in the adjustment brush and the ability to use the WB tool in each adjustment layer. And you can overlap adjustment brush adjustments and each doesn't cancel the other out.

    5. C1, usually has a better color adjustment selection that LR. However in Local adjustment layers, if you overlap a layer and try to make a 2nd color adjustment in a layer that is overlapped and which has as color adjustment already, you will get a error and C1 creates a strange blooming effect. This happens in mac and windows and C1 is aware of it, but has told me it is due to the design of C1 and icc profiles in the layers. LR in effect has figured out a way to get around this by allowing you to have WB adjustments in separate adjustment brushes that don't cancel each other out.

    6. C1 has a bit better base profile of the D800 camera and at times I will use the Phase One IQ250 profiles on the D800 files. LR has gotten better, but the default profiles are a bit harsh and you really have to be careful. I don't have any custom profiles for the Nikon D800 in either software.

    7. C1 to me just has tethering down. I have tethered the D800 several times just testing it and it's very solid. I really don't have a need to tether the D800, but it's nice to know it works. LR I have not tried a tethered session on Nikon.

    8. LR HAS A HISTORY, Man, do I wish C1 would read this and figure out how friggin important a history file can be, especially if you do a lot of adjustments on a file. It's great to be able to go back to an image you worked on 6 months ago, open it in LR and you can still see the steps you took. Sure C1 has the undo but if you are working on multiple files which I often do, you will get lost very fast as to where you are. I have mentioned this to C1 10 times at least on beta reviews, and open cases, but they apparently don't deem it important.

    9. LR has just a bit of an edge on sharpening with the D800e files, C1 has gotten much better with Vr7 however.

    10. Highlight/shadows pretty much a draw, as both tools have gotten much better. LR will allow shadow adjustments in an adjustment brush which is a nice feature.

    11. Adjustments for perspective, LR is more user friendly. I have really never been able to figure out the C1 adjustments here, and have tried quite a few times. With the latest version of LR, the "upright" tool is an excellent addition.

    These are the main issues differences I seen in daily workflow. I am sure many are unique to my style of working.

    Paul

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    8. LR HAS A HISTORY, Man, do I wish C1 would read this and figure out how friggin important a history file can be, especially if you do a lot of adjustments on a file. It's great to be able to go back to an image you worked on 6 months ago, open it in LR and you can still see the steps you took. Sure C1 has the undo but if you are working on multiple files which I often do, you will get lost very fast as to where you are. I have mentioned this to C1 10 times at least on beta reviews, and open cases, but they apparently don't deem it important.

    Paul
    Paul, couldn't agree more with this, it may be the single biggest issue for me with C1, being able to see the changes you made in LR and go back to where you want is just a million miles ahead of C1.

    I'm finding more and more that I process the basics in C1, wb, first round of sharpening, basic settings and then export the files I like to a folder and in to Lightroom, the LR results are better on a C1 processed file for me, the shadow/highlight features just work better. I agree that sessions works really well in C1 and I record each job as a session.

    Mat

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Paul, couldn't agree more with this, it may be the single biggest issue for me with C1, being able to see the changes you made in LR and go back to where you want is just a million miles ahead of C1.

    I'm finding more and more that I process the basics in C1, wb, first round of sharpening, basic settings and then export the files I like to a folder and in to Lightroom, the LR results are better on a C1 processed file for me, the shadow/highlight features just work better. I agree that sessions works really well in C1 and I record each job as a session.

    Mat
    Mat,

    I was surprised at the reaction I received from Phase One, C1 in the few cases I opened. It should not be that big a deal but it also might force a catalog style workflow as LR is able to keep it due to the catalog and database it creates from what I understand.

    From other posts I have read here and Lula, and C1's forum, I don't feel C1 is up to the level of cataloging that LR is. However I also feel that with version 8.x this will hopefully improve.

    Since I started printing 100% from LR, I find that I always will 'tweak" the image in LR before printing, since the final printed version stays in the catalog, with the last level of adjustments this is a nice feature of LR. You just have to remember if you moved the file, which I often do after I archive. But LR will remember everything, if you can locate the file.

    Paul

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    It would certainly be a huge benefit in my view Paul, I will sometimes alter a couple of shots and then want to go back a few steps and having to use the undo feature is just rubbish.

    For personal shots, testing and stuff, I use a Catalog in C1 and then make projects within the catalog, I put a folder of all images under the project then use smart folders for 1 star/2 star etc. I end up with a project for a set of images and folders within, works well for me.

    There's no doubt that keywording and things are far more advanced in LR but to be honest I store images under date and job so I never struggle to find what i want.

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Yes, I have always, stored my raw files off line, in raid arrays. Stored by year, then day of shoot, then camera. Flat format non relational. But it works for me.

    When I need a file/files etc, then I just import the needed images.

    I move around PC's too much to really use a catalog, as I will do some work in the field on a Macbook pro (running bootcamp win7) and then in studio, on desktop units.

    Paul

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Yes, I have always, stored my raw files off line, in raid arrays. Stored by year, then day of shoot, then camera. Flat format non relational. But it works for me.

    When I need a file/files etc, then I just import the needed images.

    I move around PC's too much to really use a catalog, as I will do some work in the field on a Macbook pro (running bootcamp win7) and then in studio, on desktop units.

    Paul
    So being new to LR i just download my images from my cards on to the desktop import them in place where they sit than export a output file within the same folder ( ala C1 style) than do my processing than move them off the desktop after I am done. Im not really interested in the catalog feature of LR and just continue in the same vain as session. Client name/Job and date. This way my system does not change. Than that gets backed up in 3 places

    Since I have a 1tb PCI SSD drive in my MBP i have room to leave my folder on my desktop for a couple weeks in case I have to go back in and redo a image or something. One thing I did was create a Data hold folder on my desktop and put these extra files in there so the anal person I am does not have to look at a million file folders on my desktop. I just like a clean looking desktop.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    The only problem with that approach Guy (unless I'm misreading it somehow) is that when you move the folder off the desktop after you're done LR will loose track of them. If you need to go back for some more processing in LR then you'll have to "find" them for the catalog. Not difficult if you know where they are but an extra step.

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Mike absolutely correct I do lose the files and than would have to go find them off the working Raid0 drive I have setup. Not a big deal as it would be the exact duplicate of the original folder anyway so just need to point it there.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Jack, you haven't commented on this recently.

    I wonder what IQ aspects of LR that is putting you off? Perhaps LR users could address some of those concerns? Or perhaps they can't be addressed, and the stability issues with C1 need to be trumpeted louder so they do something about it? After all, you have a long history with C1, and flip-flopping back and forth between RAW processors is a giant PITA.

    As you know, I stuck with LR despite opinions from respected photographers such as yourself (C1), and Jono (Aperture). This was made easier when Leica used DNG RAW, and alined themselves with Adobe (especially the S system lens profiles) ... same with Hasselblad who furnished all the profile data and DAC corrections to Adobe. As Guy pointed out, the Sony files seem to respond to LR well, and I'd second that opinion. So, all of my selected camera systems were/are well served by LR in terms of IQ.

    IMO, all of these software products take a fair amount of time to get a handle on, and while all of them can initially deliver results with a little effort, a longer learning curve usually reveals far more sophistication than one would suspect ... LR is no exception.

    Personally, I deal with a lot of images at a time, more importantly a lot of different cameras and lenses with-in a session that is organized by time shot (sometimes up to five systems if I count my second shooter's cameras).

    LR makes this quite easy to do ... and I can segregate each camera/lens by selecting them in the meta-data menu ... yet they are never out of order when I return to the full Library session. That, and the ability to "Open In" any software program I wish including PS, while never leaving the Library makes LR the only game in town for me. Frankly, between PS and LR's synergistic interaction, there is very little that can't be done without leaving LR.

    Now here's either a very stupid question, or a stroke of genius:
    Can C1 be selected as an "Open In" option in LR's preferences? I ask this because I can't try it myself since I don't have C1.

    When I was shooting with Hasselblads, I generally used LR for 95% of the images ... but there were certain images I felt would be better served by the Hasselblad Phocus software ... however, I never thought to try this "Open In" notion back then. Sure would be cool if it worked.

    - Marc

  27. #27
    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Folks,

    we can meanwhile leave Aperture out of the equation - unfortunately

    Apple to cease development of Aperture

    Apple to cease development of Aperture: Digital Photography Review

    Not sure what the new Photo App from Apple will really be, I see it more as a cloudified iPhoto, but maybe I am wrong.


    So after C1 is not really useable and Aperture no longer developed further, LR may be the best solution for the future.

    Peter

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    C1 v Lightroom


    I stand by my comment in another thread back in May 2013:


    "I'm also surprised by the stability comments, I have never had it (i.e. Capture One) crash or freeze or anything like that, not a single time.

    (I'm on an Intel i5 CPU 12 Gb RAM HP desktop with 64-bit Windows 7)."


    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/image-pr...tml#post515791


    Are there any other Windows users running Capture One 7 on Windows ?

    And if so, what are your experiences with this ?

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Now here's either a very stupid question, or a stroke of genius:
    Can C1 be selected as an "Open In" option in LR's preferences? I ask this because I can't try it myself since I don't have C1.

    When I was shooting with Hasselblads, I generally used LR for 95% of the images ... but there were certain images I felt would be better served by the Hasselblad Phocus software ... however, I never thought to try this "Open In" notion back then. Sure would be cool if it worked.

    - Marc
    Marc,

    It works just like the PS shuffle...set C1 as the second external editor in preferences and you then can choose to go to PS or to C1...then from C1 to PS if desired.

    Nice to see this as an option.

    Bob

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Whilst this would work, for me the value in C1 is the RAW processing, obviously others may see different things but I can open and process, save out the tiff files and import those in to LR. Processing in LR then opening them in C1 would bypass the good bit for me, depends on what you like I suppose.

    Mat

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Whilst this would work, for me the value in C1 is the RAW processing, obviously others may see different things but I can open and process, save out the tiff files and import those in to LR. Processing in LR then opening them in C1 would bypass the good bit for me, depends on what you like I suppose.

    Mat
    I assume that if your primary is LR you can import there ... if the file does not look great clear the history and then try C1 as an alternative...but I agree that it would be for only an occasional file.

    Still I think the DAM aspect of LR is somewhat better than C1...personal preference.

    Bob

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by lmeiners View Post
    Jack, pardon me for answering a question you didn't ask, but I think NX is underrated. I can easily do things with it that are hard for me duplicate with C1 and LR. Admittedly, C1 was so difficult for me to learn that I don't think I ever really got it. I really like the color booster feature in NX. I usually can get the color where I want it without things getting weird. Also it contains a lot of the Nik engine in easy to use form. I usually run my files through NX before PS. I think Nikon put a lot of work into the package, and because it's easy to use, some people think it's not as good.

    I think I probably just revealed myself as a Philistine.
    I agree with lmeiners. NX can do magic with the files.

    There's even a plugin to integrate CaptureNX into the LR workflow.
    NxTooLRPlugin

    S.

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    I agree with Stan but I will go further.

    View NX is free and it is for me the best tool to work the NEFs. Once the NEFs cooked just export a tiff.

    C1 might be a good software but it is an hassle to use it. To much complicated and not very user friendly.

    Lightroom is a good generalist software but very bad for NEFs. For me, LR is very good with Leica DNG and Fuji files.

    I use C17P but only to cook Phase one files.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    I ve never been happy with the raw processing in LR for the .NEF files . Direct side by side comparisons with NX/2 showed that the Nef files had much better color and detail than I was getting with LR .

    I am happy with LR as my DAM approach using external folders ..personally I think this is as good as it gets and can handle any requirement I know of . I am also pleased with 95% of the rest of LR for processing ,export,printing etc . And this gets better with each release .

    Camera profiling helps a lot with LR but its not a one size fits all . I found I often needed specific profiles for individual shoots . Not difficult but not required with say my Leica DNG files .

    So its the raw conversions where LR seems lacking . I plan on reprocessing my best selects with NX but thats not an ideal work flow.
    Roger Dunham
    http://rogerdunham.com/
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Sounds like it's time for me to buy NX2 and learn to use it...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    You'll hate it. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Member dogstarnyc's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    FWIW...

    I left C1 years ago after managing to get my Phase one files to look great in LR (LR is great for DAM, as well as all the upload/output options).

    After catching up on this thread yesterday I downloaded the beta of Nikon's new NX-D and open a recent D800E portrait in both LR and NX-D

    The NX file was opened up by 2/3 of a stop and more (better) contrasty but certainly not night and day.

    The slight reddish skin tones where still apparent in both processes.

    Oberservations:

    LR under exposes both my PhaseOne and Nikon RAWs (to save highlights?)
    I shoot in Nikon Neutral and often apply my own profile on import to LR
    Said profile often dials out most of the red in the skin tones if not I dial it out in LR (dev mode at bottom).

    I still think that if you spend enough time learning a (powerful) bit of software your options are limitless, it is US that is the bottleneck, if C1 or NX can create a fab profile, then so can we. it just needs a bit of patience, a method and lots of tea/cawfee/wine/JD....


    In addition, here are a few reasons I use LR, this might help or hinder...

    Import- I import as DNG, backs are original raws, then those raws are backed up to a drive that lives mostly off site.
    tithe key~ after import (adding simple search words and numbering) use the 'L' key or shift/tab key to isolate 1st image, then use space bar to go to next pic, use the tithe key to flag the ones you like (forget about stars or colours, you either like it or you don't).

    Once you've done that, double click last image to get you back to grid format and click filters off in top right and click flagged, then go edit-select all.

    Scroll down the left hand file location box to collections, create new 'model shoot edit 1' or whatever and it will ask if you want to include these selected images, say yes.

    Nothing gets moved at all, it means you don't have to keep referring back to every pic from a shoot, you are working with your edits..

    You can then cut that down even further with edit 2, 3 clients choice etc...

    'Create virtual copy'
    Really great if you want to see how an image looks 3 different ways...

    User PRESETS
    wow, everything you do from import to print or web layout can be saved as a preset and used again for perfect consistency... WOW..

    NO DESTRUCTIVE EDITING...
    DOUBLE WOW need I say more.. couple that with history and it just speeds up input/back up and output to customers via the web/email/pdf

    just some quick random points that might help and get you out shooting more...

    Steve
    Steve Brickles

  38. #38
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Sounds like it's time for me to buy NX2 and learn to use it...

    Well, I am not skilled enough to beat NX2 raw conversions of .NEF files with ACR or C1. My 2 cents.
    With best regards, K-H.

  39. #39
    Member dogstarnyc's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    OK here are two jpegs one developed in NX and one LR.

    Just to show what I did to get them very close...

    The LR jpeg was created from the file imported and converted to DNG, shot in camera neutral.
    jpeg quality was 89% sharpened on export for screen 600px on the shorter edge.

    The NX jpeg was created from the original .NEF file in NX-D Beta same thing 89% quality, 600px on the shorter edge.

    What I did to the LR file to get it this close was:
    Add +.95 to the exposure
    Use the strong contrast curve already available under the curve graph
    Use current Adobe 2012 process at the bottom of the RH pane and also select camera neutral here.

    The NX software adds some sharpening, I applied none in LR and just let it produce 'sharpen for screen' on export.

    It was very quick and easy to apply these and even save the adjustments as a preset to apply again or... to apply to all the shots on this shoot just right click and copy the adjustments and apply to all the others.
    Steve Brickles
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    paul:
    "adjustments for perspective, LR is more user friendly. I have really never been able to figure out the C1 adjustments here, and have tried quite a few times."

    select the keystone tool (icon is two converging vertical lines)
    two vertical lines will appear on your elected image, each with a control point, one high, one low. for LS line, drag control points (and the line) to match an image line you want to be vertical; same for right side. choose "apply"

    and yes! to the history function for C1

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    C1 v Lightroom


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post

    Sounds like it's time for me to buy NX2 and learn to use it...

    Nikon Capture NX2 is now a waste of money as it will soon be discontinued.

    The successor, Nikon Capture NX-D, will be free (so far) and will be released the 15th of July 2014:

    Nikon | News | Nikon will release the official version of Capture NX-D, its new RAW image processing and adjustment software application, for free download beginning July 15, 2014


    Nikon Capture NX-D beta version 0.9.2 is already available for test and feedback purposes here:

    Nikon | Capture NX-D | Beta version download for free

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    Member dogstarnyc's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    the NX example above was done in NX-D beta..

    Steve
    Steve Brickles

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by dogstarnyc View Post
    OK here are two jpegs one developed in NX and one LR.

    Just to show what I did to get them very close...

    The LR jpeg was created from the file imported and converted to DNG, shot in camera neutral.
    jpeg quality was 89% sharpened on export for screen 600px on the shorter edge.

    The NX jpeg was created from the original .NEF file in NX-D Beta same thing 89% quality, 600px on the shorter edge.

    What I did to the LR file to get it this close was:
    Add +.95 to the exposure
    Use the strong contrast curve already available under the curve graph
    Use current Adobe 2012 process at the bottom of the RH pane and also select camera neutral here.

    The NX software adds some sharpening, I applied none in LR and just let it produce 'sharpen for screen' on export.

    It was very quick and easy to apply these and even save the adjustments as a preset to apply again or... to apply to all the shots on this shoot just right click and copy the adjustments and apply to all the others.
    Here's my issue -- I immediately see reddish bias on the skin in your LR conversion, and then while subtle, a sallow yellow tinge to the skin shadows. I *hate* those in skin, and C1 and NX don't do that.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  44. #44
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I wonder what IQ aspects of LR that is putting you off?
    Marc, sorry for the late reply. The basics of my dissatisfaction are color integrity then detail in that order. (I also hate album mentality as opposed to sessions, but there appears to be a workaround.) I could live with the slight detail hit as in most cases we have so much available in our files now that the slight loss goes un-noticed for web or even large print. But color is one of my nits; especially skin when I shoot people and greens when I shoot landscape. Unfortunately my past experience with LR is it doesn't do either particularly well -- skin tends red with Nikon and Phase files, and yellow-tallow with Canon files, and greens go muddy gray brown. Not sure about Sony files, but suspect they tend red on skin like N files do. In the old days, I built a special profile using the color checker for my Leica and Canon digital to LR work -- it helped, but was far from perfect. And C1 even though clugy to use back then was way superior.

    At present, I'm thinking I'll at least try NXD. I can manage with C1, but would prefer better stability when I do large batches. For now, turning off graphics acceleration has mitigated most of my stability issues from C1 -- and I do like the session type workflow.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Guys, do not go with Capture NX.

    Just use View NX It is sufficient.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Steen:

    Thanks for the links especially the NX-D. I am assuming this version does not have the control point technology that Nikon licensed from Nik?

    Paul

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    C1 v Lightroom


    You are right, Paul, the new Capture NX-D does not have the control point technology that Nikon licensed from Nik and used in NX2 - until Nik was bought by Google.

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Just looked at this on an iPad and realised I had made an error.

    I had LR set up to change the colour profile to sRGB when outputting web sized jpegs. I hadn't checked in NX-D and it hasn't both files are different on a tablet/smart phone.

    Jack,

    I didn't use any custom profile in LR and my monitor although not a mega posh one, is a higher end Dell (the ones used at Conde Nast NYC), regularly calibrated and not dry old.

    Anyway I'll replace them later with both having the same profile.

    S
    Steve Brickles

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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    Ok so here are the same two files, only this time with the NX-D's profile changed to sRGB.

    Note to Jack,

    I didn't develop the RAW's to my particular style, just to demonstrate that it's not rocket science (well it might be) for us to tweak LR to the crisper, brighter RAW that comes out of NX-D.

    Myself and many others had to 'get rid' of the magenta and yellow undercurrents in Nikon's raws... particularly with skin tones. I think many of us coming from PhaseOne or Hasselblad files thought 'YUK' when the first raws came up on our screens.

    It's easy to fix, a combination of not using canned profiles, tweaking the camera calibration sliders at the foot of the RH pane in develop mode and even playing around (very slightly) with the toning sliders.


    Steve
    Steve Brickles

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    Member dogstarnyc's Avatar
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    Re: C1 v Lightroom

    So I then took the file and played with the calibration sliders a tad and in 30 secs managed to make the whole thing look so awful ...!
    However here is the same file with a slightly less red/yellow look. Tweaked in LR.

    Steve
    Steve Brickles

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