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Thread: I love DSLR

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    I love DSLR

    I took a break from DSLR for a long time for all the reasons we love mirrorless: light, discreet, cheap, etc.

    But I shot a D3x last week and boy, what a revelation! Didn't have to worry about battery life, about slow focus, about small EVF, about buffer, about anything. just took the camera and shot. And the results came out as what I envisioned.

    Yes, my shoulder is still sore, but I'm seriously thinking about getting back to DSLR again.

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    Re: I love DSLR

    I couldn't agree more. And if you want the advantages of DSLR without so much weight, consider a D610 with f1.8 af-s G primes, or even the lovely Voigtlander 40mm f2 Ultron for an even smaller footprint. I love mine so much I just bought the 28mm f2.8 pancake to go with it. No backache when you're carrying an empty wallet!

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Welcome back. My old eyes relished the move back too...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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    Re: I love DSLR

    thanks. I'm going to snatch up a used D800 after the D810 gets released. they'll probably be even cheaper by then

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    I love SLR




    I'm pretty sure the electronic viewfinder concept is where we are heading, but until then I enjoy the good old optical through-the-lens viewfinder.

    Nothing beats that experience, it's like viewing a scenery through a clean window pane or in a binocular instead of on a television, and you even do not have to turn it on.
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    Re: I love DSLR

    I went out a got a 800e, YAY! Back into the DSLR fold.
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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    I love DSLR


    Congrats mmbma

    Enjoy your new D800Extravagance .-)

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Electronic viewfinders are over rated to me. I am on my third different system (presently A7r), but when I envision doing "serious stuff" I use my DSLRs. Several days ago, we were traveling, and I used my A7r that is usually always in the car trunk (for this, it is great). I was on the beach, in bright light. I am left eyed, and must shoot one handed, so my left hand can shield and cup the finder; even then, it is VERY hard for me to see the screen in bright day light. Add to this, I had focus peaking on HIGH, which made the already hard to see finder a night mare of white jaggies over everything making composition difficult. Turn focus peaking OFF? The light was so bright, I could not see the menu screens at all. I gave up. When I returned home, I fondled my D800e. I also use a Pentax 646D, and Sony Alpha 900, which I am afraid to sell, because I have the excellent Sony Zeiss and G lenses, along with Minolta legacy glass. I held onto these, as I kept waiting for a Sony A mount DSLR with 36 mp sensor to replace the A900. I got tired of waiting, and got the Nikon D800e. Makes no sense having four systems, but I am retired, and an amateur having fun.
    Regards to all
    Dave in NJ
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by gurtch View Post
    Electronic viewfinders are over rated to me. I am on my third different system (presently A7r), but when I envision doing "serious stuff" I use my DSLRs. Several days ago, we were traveling, and I used my A7r that is usually always in the car trunk (for this, it is great). I was on the beach, in bright light. I am left eyed, and must shoot one handed, so my left hand can shield and cup the finder; even then, it is VERY hard for me to see the screen in bright day light. ...
    That's a matter of EVF implementation. I have both A7 and Olympus E-M1: the E-M1 is a much better implementation, although the two EVFs are similar in most other ways.

    I find focus peaking to be much overhyped. It is useful, but magnification (with a sensible way to return to seeing the full view) is much better for most focusing needs. I almost never turn peaking on anymore, with either camera. That said, I have peaking on the A7 set to the down arrow. I can turn it on and off by feel. :-)

    I do understand the good mojo of a fine SLR viewfinder, however. That's why I have two Nikon Fs and two Leicaflex SLs here. I have not found their equal in a DSLR that isn't so bloated and heavy, I just won't carry anything as big and clumsy as a D800 much. That's why I bought the A7 and E-M1 ... Both bodies are in the size/weight class of my favorite Nikon FM series cameras.

    G

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    Re: I love DSLR

    A nik

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    Re: I love DSLR

    A Nikon FM size body with full frame 36 mp sensor would be a game changer for me. Same thing in Sony A mount.
    Dave

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by gurtch View Post
    A nik
    Sorry for the partial post. Glass of wine, Saturday night, and ipad, with clumsy hands!
    Dave

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by gurtch View Post
    Sorry for the partial post. Glass of wine, Saturday night, and ipad, with clumsy hands!
    Dave
    Be truthful, how many glasses of wine?

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Maybe more than one!
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    Re: I love DSLR

    I am another convert. After trying nearly all mirrorless, I am back to DSLR with Nikon DF.
    It feels so much at home and to an extent I now get it why CaNikon is not into the game yet. I think they will eventually enter but only when they can address key performance issues around AF, EVF and Battery

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    Re: I love DSLR

    even though I like the EM1 for its speed and nice lens options and small size of most lenses I am one of those who agrees that DSLR do have some major advantages in regards of viewfinder, AF plus sensor size.

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    Re: I love DSLR

    I love my E-1. I wish it had the E-M1 sensor and operating speed.
    But even if it did, the E-M1 would be more versatile and is even more compact.

    G

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    Re: I love DSLR

    EVF's will get better, and probably sooner than later. When they become "transparent" we'll have found nirvana with all the possible permutations of informative electronic overlays we can have displayed.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    EVF's will get better, and probably sooner than later. When they become "transparent" we'll have found nirvana with all the possible permutations of informative electronic overlays we can have displayed.
    Exactly. If you take a step back and think about it, the dslr is pretty preposterous Rube Goldberg kind of invention. The whole mirror box thing is really ridiculous!

    Don't get me wrong ... I've switched to a dslr for all my work. In the past I've used 4x5 and hasselblad film cameras, and have little use for them now.

    But the writing is on the wall for the whole slr concept. When digital viewfinders get as good as optical ones, and become efficient enough that battery capacity isn't an issue, no one will look back. The instant improvement in lenses will be the real triumph ... without the need for extreme retrofocus designs, we will be in hog heaven. And we'll likely enter an age of every company's lens working (with adapters) with every company's cameras.

    I don't know when this will happen, and I'm not holding my breath. In the mean time I'm counting my blessings with the goofy dslr (which, to be fair, is also a kind of miracle). But the day will come.

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    Senior Member segedi's Avatar
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    Re: I love DSLR

    I took two separate looks at the new Sony RX100 III and walked away both times. I just can't get used to EVFs. Df, D810 or a Canon. But I'm waiting until Fall to get anything... Going to try to shoot through half my film until then and probably later.

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    I took a break from DSLR for a long time for all the reasons we love mirrorless: light, discreet, cheap, etc.

    But I shot a D3x last week and boy, what a revelation! Didn't have to worry about battery life, about slow focus, about small EVF, about buffer, about anything. just took the camera and shot. And the results came out as what I envisioned.

    Yes, my shoulder is still sore, but I'm seriously thinking about getting back to DSLR again.
    I love DSLR too, but after I got the GH3, I don't need to worry about "battery life, about slow focus, about small EVF, about buffer, about anything". Sometimes, I think that I'll keep the D700 for events and portraits, but the portrait lenses for m4/3 are better than anything I can afford for 35mm. Sometimes, I think I'll miss the OVF, but not when I see the instant review in the GH3 viewfinder or I switch to video by pushing a button, still not removing my eye from the viewfinder.

    I've considered keeping my OM Zuiko lenses and use them with an A7s for shots in the dark and very shallow DOF portraits, but then I ask myself: Is that worth $3,000? An f/0.95 lens on the GH4 that I'll buy anyway will solve that, and even the PanaLeica 42.5mm f/1.2 gives me shallower DOF than I'm usually comfortable with.

    To me now, optical viewfinders end up in the same category as film; they are nice for nostalgic reasons, but as opposed to film, they have no impact whatsoever on the image quality. I'll keep the F6 though, and will probably buy some nice 35/85 or 28/50/85 combo for it. Apart from that, optical viewfinders are fast becoming ancient history, at least for me.
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Oh, and another thing an optical viewfinder won't do for me:
    The moment I touched the shutter release for this photo, the EVF of the GH3 had a little square around the woman's face, confirming that she was what the camera was focusing on. No need to think, just continue the movement and push all the way through. A fraction of a second later, when there was a clear picture in the viewfinder again, the image was gone forever, like so many images before it, except with the GH3, I was able to take the photo fast enough to save that moment of time to a little electronic card, deep inside this ugly but beautiful, little camera

    GH3 with Zuiko 75mm f/1.8 @ f/1.8



    The photo is a crop btw. There's even more confusion around the edges which may or may not make life for "old style" AF technology difficult.

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I love DSLR too, but after I got the GH3, I don't need to worry about "battery life, about slow focus, about small EVF, about buffer, about anything". Sometimes, I think that I'll keep the D700 for events and portraits, but the portrait lenses for m4/3 are better than anything I can afford for 35mm. Sometimes, I think I'll miss the OVF, but not when I see the instant review in the GH3 viewfinder or I switch to video by pushing a button, still not removing my eye from the viewfinder.

    I've considered keeping my OM Zuiko lenses and use them with an A7s for shots in the dark and very shallow DOF portraits, but then I ask myself: Is that worth $3,000? An f/0.95 lens on the GH4 that I'll buy anyway will solve that, and even the PanaLeica 42.5mm f/1.2 gives me shallower DOF than I'm usually comfortable with.

    To me now, optical viewfinders end up in the same category as film; they are nice for nostalgic reasons, but as opposed to film, they have no impact whatsoever on the image quality. I'll keep the F6 though, and will probably buy some nice 35/85 or 28/50/85 combo for it. Apart from that, optical viewfinders are fast becoming ancient history, at least for me.
    Exactly my opinion. I loved the EVF of my EM1 as I did love the whole camera, but the XT1 with even better EVF just tops this for me. No longer need to look through relatively dark OVFs even in pro DSLRs compared to the latest EVFs and the XT1 EVF is SOOOO FAST that there is no noticeable delay to be seen but all the advantages of a great EVF!

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    I love DSLR


    Here is Thom Hogan's comparison of a couple of 24x36mm EVF cameras as well as OVF cameras, from Sony and Nikon respectively.

    Sony A7 versus Nikon D750 and A7r versus D810 | byThom | Thom Hogan



    .
    Last edited by Steen; 19th November 2014 at 00:47.
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    Here is Thom Hogan's comparison of a couple of 24x36mm EVF cameras as well as OVF cameras, from Sony and Nikon respectively.

    Sony A7 versus Nikon D750 and A7r versus D810 | byThom | Thom Hogan



    .
    I think we should not make the mistake and believe that some mirrorless-lovers-sites like Steve Huff and comparable are representative.
    I am sure there are certain Group of users who prefer the smaller size of mirrorless cameras (IMO still the main Advantage).
    But I am confident optical viewfinders and DSLRs will last for a Long time.
    From a certain lensspeed on lenses get so big that a bigger Body is not a disadvantage but an Advantage.
    And do you remember someyears ago when one important feauture of a camera was a short black out time when taking an Image?
    Is it ok to sea the last Image when Shooting continues instead of what happens right now when Shooting Action?
    I like mirrorless as well, there are Advantages but - IMO- still many Advantages for DLSRs.

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    Re: I love DSLR

    You have a knack to derail a discussion with OT injection.

    Thom Hogan is one of the staunch Nikonistas. Even he is changing...it isn't just EVF vs OVF. If the next gen Sony sensors debut in a mirrorless body (instead of a Nikon), it is all over for DSLRs.
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    Re: I love DSLR

    People have been predicting the downfall of DSLRs for years. I guess if we repeat something often enough then, at some point in time, we're eventually going to be proved right.
    I don't think it's going to happen any time soon, though!

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    Re: I love DSLR

    How can anyone state that dslr's or any type of equipment is dead based solely on their own use for a camera, the idea is absurd! There's a massive amount of choice to suit everyone, why not just concentrate on what you have and take good photographs with it? There's so much rubbish being displayed in the name of art that some would do far better improving their skills than making ridiculous statements. There is no one size fits all, there is a range of products designed to appeal to a range of photographers, if it doesn't match what you want then that's fine. Just get on with photographing stuff!!

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    I love DSLR


    Let's not regard it as a controversy.
    After all we are just spending some time together sharing our experiences, our preferences, and some related links.
    Here it is cloudy, cold and wet, and now it's even getting dark so right now I want to stay inside having a nice chat in good company about gear and life and what not.
    Nobody's trying to persuade anybody about anything.

    My own position is this.
    I'm an old dog, even old fashioned in many ways.
    I like old fashioned viewfinders (through-the-lens optical), but I have no doubt that the development goes in the electronic viewfinder direction at least for cost savings if for no other reason.
    In the meantime I intend to just enjoy the optical finders as long as they exist and afterwards I intend to do my best to adapt to the new reality.

    My only true worry is my system mount, in my case the F-mount.
    The mount is what defines my system, not some brand name.
    My system consists of some Nikon items, some Zeiss items and some Voigtländer items, all in F-mount.
    I prefer to avoid adapters, so for me it would be sad to see my system mount go.
    I have tried that once in my life when the Leica R mount was discontinued, the biggest gear-related disappointment in my personal history with photography.
    I hope not to experience that again.

    So the core question for me is this, will the F-mount survive the transition into the new viewfinder technology when that time comes, or will the F-mount be replaced by a new mount ?
    Time will tell.


    .
    Last edited by Steen; 19th November 2014 at 13:38.
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Steen, I do not think we need worry too much on the F mount disappearing any time soon And on the upside, even if it does, there is a literal plethora of used options available, enough to last you and me twice the rest of our lifetimes
    Jack
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    EVF's will get better, and probably sooner than later. When they become "transparent" we'll have found nirvana with all the possible permutations of informative electronic overlays we can have displayed.
    I am not sure about sooner rather than later! For an EVP to approach the optical viewfinder will require about 16 stops of dynamic so that both blacks and whites can be properly rendered in bright, contrasty light.

    In addition to my Nikons I have the Fuji XT1 which has arguably the best EVF on the market at this time. It is great for most purposes but for landscape application where shooting in various degrees of contrasty light it still has limitations.

    I long for the day when the EVF approaches optical dynamics but at 77 years ofd age I am not holding my breath.

    Woody
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    You have a knack to derail a discussion with OT injection.

    Thom Hogan is one of the staunch Nikonistas. Even he is changing...it isn't just EVF vs OVF. If the next gen Sony sensors debut in a mirrorless body (instead of a Nikon), it is all over for DSLRs.
    There are (apparently) credible rumors that the A7II series is about to launch with significant improvements over the A7 and a new A9 will be released in the first or second quarter of 2015. It is rumored that the A9 will have the Sony 50 Mx now used in a number of MF backs from Hasselblad to Phase One but in a much smaller body. The body is reputedly larger than the A7's but smaller than (for instance) the Pentax 645Z which, I believe uses the Sony sensor as well.

    So much to look forward to apparently. I anxiously await the reality

    Woody
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    I long for the day when the EVF approaches optical dynamics but at 77 years ofd age I am not holding my breath.

    Woody
    Oh, please! I do not mean any disrespect to you or Steen or Jack. You are only as old as you think you are!

    Look at all the young folks having a bash in "fun with the A7 series" over at the Sony section!

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Guy is a babe in the woods compared to me
    Jack
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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    I love DSLR


    speaking about age



    if you get my point

    (not quite sure I understand it myself, but at least it's the latest)
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Guy is a babe in the woods compared to me
    So he is much younger

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    I am not sure about sooner rather than later! For an EVP to approach the optical viewfinder will require about 16 stops of dynamic so that both blacks and whites can be properly rendered in bright, contrasty light.

    In addition to my Nikons I have the Fuji XT1 which has arguably the best EVF on the market at this time. It is great for most purposes but for landscape application where shooting in various degrees of contrasty light it still has limitations.

    I long for the day when the EVF approaches optical dynamics but at 77 years ofd age I am not holding my breath.

    Woody
    Ditto - agree 100%

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Sometimes, like right now, I would like to dump my mirrorless gear and go all SLR again. I've just went through some photos from a recent trip to Myanmar, and some of those taken with the otherwise excellent Panasonic 7-14mm are soft, soft, soft. I suspect it's the software correction that does it, and it's rather unpredictable.

    One of the advantages with new technology is that it allows for solutions that wouldn't be possible using traditional methods with elaborate optical designs. Like a pocketable 7-14mm (14-28mm eqv.). One of the disadvantages is that it isn't yet 100% reliable and that once-in-a-lifetime shots can be uglified by software weaknesses or operator errors related to the technology.

    It's tempting to dump the mirrorless, buy the D750 and all or most of the f/1.8 series to replace it. At least it's tempting right now. We'll see next week.
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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    I love DSLR


    ouch, what an inopportune moment for a camera rig to fail, Jorgen, still you managed to make some wonderful images during your Myanmar trip

    .

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Sometimes, like right now, I would like to dump my mirrorless gear and go all SLR again. I've just went through some photos from a recent trip to Myanmar, and some of those taken with the otherwise excellent Panasonic 7-14mm are soft, soft, soft. I suspect it's the software correction that does it, and it's rather unpredictable.

    One of the advantages with new technology is that it allows for solutions that wouldn't be possible using traditional methods with elaborate optical designs. Like a pocketable 7-14mm (14-28mm eqv.). One of the disadvantages is that it isn't yet 100% reliable and that once-in-a-lifetime shots can be uglified by software weaknesses or operator errors related to the technology.

    It's tempting to dump the mirrorless, buy the D750 and all or most of the f/1.8 series to replace it. At least it's tempting right now. We'll see next week.
    Before going with D750 I would definitely suggest D810 - MUCH MUCH better in all respect!

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Before going with D750 I would definitely suggest D810 - MUCH MUCH better in all respect!
    Can you quantify that somewhat? What makes the D810 "much much better in all respects"?

    I was at the camera shop last weekend and handled both the D810 and the D750. I liked the feel of the D750 much much more ... the D810 seemed too big and heavy to me. The D750 felt closer to my favorite DSLR, the Olympus E-1.

    (I'm not really in the market for a new DSLR, but I am always curious. And I have a few very nice Nikkor lenses...)

    G

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Before going with D750 I would definitely suggest D810 - MUCH MUCH better in all respect!
    I'm sure it's much, much better, but it's too big and too heavy. I have big, heavy cameras already. The D750 is about the same size as the D80 that I loved to pieces; small enough for travel but large enough, particularly with the grip, for most other uses... aaaaand it has a flipable screen.

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    ouch, what an inopportune moment for a camera rig to fail, Jorgen, still you managed to make some wonderful images during your Myanmar trip

    .
    Not the same trip, Steen. I go there every month, but often to places that I probably won't be able to get back to. I'm tempted to bring the D700 for the next one

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    Re: I love DSLR

    I was looking at the D750 and the D810 and the differences in size and weight are measured in millimeters and ounces! Do you guys really feel that the D810 is too big and heavy?

    I travel a lot and never know when or if I'm going to return, plus I'm getting on a bit, if I want to take a shot I want to take the absolute best quality file I can get, ounces and millimeters don't really matter to me, getting the shot on a small compact camera because it's easy and then wishing I had taken it on a better camera would be a nightmare!

    We all want different things I suppose, it's all good.

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    Re: I love DSLR

    It's more than millimeters and ounces, Mat. It's also about the shape of the camera. I have a D700 and an F6, two cameras that are almost exactly the same dimensions and weight. Still, the F6 feels much smaller and is easier to pack because it has a different shape and has a much thinner body. That goes for the D750 compared to the D810 as well:



    I would love to have a camera with the D810 specs in a D750 body, but alas...

    Edit: There's another problem for me with the D810. The grip is very thick, but shallow on the inside. I never feel I have a secure grip because of that. The D750 has a grip that is deep and relatively straight on the inside, making it possible to let it hang from a couple of fingers only.
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    Re: I love DSLR

    I understand what you are saying Jorgen, I guess in the big scheme of things, the increase in size seems negligible when the shot counts and when a shot presents itself I want to capture it in the best way I can. I can understand also that for me size doesn't matter but for others it does.

    For me a camera has to make me want to use it, normally that means because the images it produces are great, I can definitely live with the extra bulk.

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    Re: I love DSLR

    I've shot small boxy mirrorless for several years now. Whenever I pick up a DSLR, its heft and contours feel so right in my large hands. Even the plastic feels good. And then there's the OVF and instant AF. I doubt I'll ever go back, but I certainly get the appeal.

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Can you quantify that somewhat? What makes the D810 "much much better in all respects"?

    I was at the camera shop last weekend and handled both the D810 and the D750. I liked the feel of the D750 much much more ... the D810 seemed too big and heavy to me. The D750 felt closer to my favorite DSLR, the Olympus E-1.

    (I'm not really in the market for a new DSLR, but I am always curious. And I have a few very nice Nikkor lenses...)

    G
    I used to have the D800E for years and liked it very much. One of the best things about this camera was the OVF and the possibility to add a special Nikon enlargement lens (forgot it's name) which additionally enlarges the already excellent OVF. Plus the sensor in the D810 has no AA filter, whereas the D750 comes still with AA filter.

    I totally agree WRT size and actually would love a D750 with a similar OVF to the D810 as well without AA filter. I do not care about 36 vs 24MP so 24MP are mor than fine - actually preferably to me. Plus all the rest of the D750 would be fine for me.

    So we can hope for a D760 which would have the features mentioned above. Actually such a camera would make me jump into the Nikon system again - mainly with the new breed of 1.8 lenses and the 4/70-200.

    Hope that clarifies.

    Peter

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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I'm sure it's much, much better, but it's too big and too heavy. I have big, heavy cameras already. The D750 is about the same size as the D80 that I loved to pieces; small enough for travel but large enough, particularly with the grip, for most other uses... aaaaand it has a flipable screen.
    Actually I would love a D810 quality sensor in the D750 body, without any AA filer - could be 24MP, that would be enough. Plus the better OVF of the D810.

    There is hope .....
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    Re: I love DSLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It's more than millimeters and ounces ...
    Indeed. Every time I pick up my E-1, I love it. I love shooting with it.

    Then, after I've carried it for a day, I put it back in the closet and return to something smaller, lighter ... and realize again how much less of a pain to lug around that something is.

    The Nikon D750 reminds me a lot of the E-1 in size, weight, etc. I have no problems with its 24 Mpixel sensor or AA filter. The A7 has an AA filter too, and I can't complain about its image quality. Same for the Leica X, with a half-size sensor. Image quality cannot be assumed entirely by the number of pixels or the lack or presence of an AA filter. The viewfinder seemed okay to me for the short time I looked through it.

    Nothing I've seen in a reflex viewfinder is quite as good as what's in my Leica R8. :-)

    G

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