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Thread: Nikon Orange Peel

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Nikon Orange Peel

    I'm waiting for my dad to return from a trip so I can borrow his D810 for testing. In the meanwhile, I decided to test this idea that "orange peel" texturing is a uniquely Sony phenomenon by going back through my Lightroom (LR) catalogue and looking at my 14-bit D600 files while using the sharpening settings Tim Ashley shared in another thread.

    Literally the first file I opened in LR - bam, orange peel (OP). Shown here at 200% (same magnification Lloyd Chambers uses to demonstrate Sony OP):




    Raw file for download: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B93...ew?usp=sharing


    RawDigger histogram for this file:




    I maintain that this OP phenomenon is a LR thing and not unique to Sony files.


    If anyone is wondering whether the OP in this Nikon file is visible at 100% in LR, the answer is yes:

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    I downloaded a 14-bit ISO 64 D810 NEF from Photography Blog, applied the same sharpening settings in LR, and again OP texture was immediately apparent:




    The raw file is available for download on this page (second to last one available on the page - nikon_d810_19.nef).


    Once again, I didn't have to look hard. Was the first D810 file I checked.
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Thanks Amin. Interesting.

    Question: By how much has one to reduce sharpening parameters to get rid of the OP effect?

    To me it looks like just reducing the Detail parameter helps tremendously.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Amin, I have two questions. First, is the "orange peel" texture visible when processed in C1? Second, is the texture visible in a [large] print?

    FYI, I shoot with an a7RII, a7R IR conversion, D810 and 645Z, all of which have Sony sensors. So I have skin in the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Amin. Interesting. What are the "the sharpening settings Tim Ashley shared in another thread."? TIA.
    He's using the 60/0.7/70/20 settings for Sharpening in the Detail panel.

    Joe
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Joe, I don't see this orange peel in C1 using any of these Nikon or Sony cameras. From what I can tell, it is an artifact of the way LR applies sharpening. As for the large print question, give me a few minutes to print one of these and I'll tell you.

    I subscribed to Diglloyd recently, and as soon as I saw his subscriber-only Sony OP examples, I was pretty sure I had seen that effect before in LR from a number of different non-Sony cameras.

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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Setting the Detail parameter to 0 gets rid of OP effect entirely.

    Thanks Joe. I finally noticed that as well.

    I found playing with Amin's raw file that I can get rid of the OP effect by lowering the Detail setting alone in CS6's ACR. No need to change the other parameters.
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 29th August 2015 at 09:24.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Setting the Detail parameter to 0 gets rid of OP effect entirely.

    That's interesting. This OP phenomenon is a non-issue to me, regardless, because I use C1 and don't see it there. Both Lloyd Chambers (on his subscriber pages) as well as posts by Tim Ashley (who like Lloyd notes OP as a Sony-specific phenomenon in his experience) have at one point or another suggested the exact settings I used, including the Detail value of 70, as a starting point for sharpening in LR under certain circumstances.


    To answer Joe's earlier question, I just printed the D600 image at 13x19 (316 PPI), and at the closest distance I can manage before presbyopia becomes limiting, I am questioning whether I can detect the faintest trace of the effect. For all practical purposes, I can't see it.


    Last edited by Amin; 29th August 2015 at 10:01.
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Thanks Amin for starting this thread.
    I hope those folks will put that (non-)issue to rest.
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 29th August 2015 at 10:04.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    FYI, I shoot with an a7RII, a7R IR conversion, D810 and 645Z, all of which have Sony sensors. So I have skin in the game.

    Joe, those who have identified OP as an issue have been saying it only applies to Sony cameras, not other brand cameras which use Sony sensors. It was suggested by Lloyd Chambers that OP texture is a result of "heavily cooked", lossy compression used by Sony cameras. My belief is that OP is not an issue of any sort but rather an effect which can be generated by LR when using certain sharpening settings on files from any number of cameras.
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    This effect isn't only present into Nikon/Sony hybrids but also into the Nikon/Renesas hybrids. The D3/D700 show the same effect, either in LR or CNX/ViewNX.
    While some might see a "default", I do not. I also think it is rather a feature than a default. C1 do not show it that much but it can be spotted time to time. I call it organic texturing rather than cellulite and find it have no effect whatsoever in any kind of printing. I print A0 out of D700 and it is not even visible.

    This is a photographer/pixelpeeper problem rather than a real issue, especially for the client. The client won't see it and even fine art collectors aren't that picky.

    I do not know about "OP" with Sony files but Sony users should not worry about it since it is more than a minor issue. Nothing to write home about, Imho. I go dig into my archival because I have a perfect example of it, I remember. I'll post it latter.

    Lloyd is WRONG if he say that about Nikon NEF raws in 14 bits uncompressed mode.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    My belief is that OP is not an issue of any sort but rather an effect which can be generated by LR when using certain sharpening settings on files from any number of cameras.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    To answer Joe's earlier question, I just printed the D600 image at 13x19 (316 PPI), and at the closest distance I can manage before presbyopia becomes limiting, I am questioning whether I can detect the faintest trace of the effect. For all practical purposes, I can't see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    This is a photographer/pixelpeeper problem rather than a real issue, especially for the client. The client won't see it and even fine art collectors aren't that picky.
    Then for me it's a non-issue. Thanks for the confirmation. I use LR/ACR and can adjust the sharpening settings if that becomes necessary. I'll continue to restrain myself from getting into the debate about what Lloyd Chambers reported. Life's too short. Take photographs. Capture memories.

    Joe
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    Then for meI'll continue to restrain myself from getting into the debate about what Lloyd Chambers reported. Life's too short. Take photographs. Capture memories.

    Joe

    I admire that. I usually try to take the high road also but didn't do manage it this last time .

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Lloyd is WRONG if he say that about Nikon NEF raws in 14 bits uncompressed mode.
    No, he did not say that at all. However, he showed a 200% crop of a Sony file showing the same kind of effect I showed in this thread and referred to it as an orange peel effect which he attributed to the Sony camera raw format.

    IMO, any time you are showing something at 200%, it isn't worth showing. The only reason I'm doing it here is because that's how it was demonstrated by LC, who as far as I know, was the first to make something out of this.
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    Adobe Lightroom Orange Peel


    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Joe, I don't see this orange peel in C1 using any of these Nikon or Sony cameras. From what I can tell, it is an artifact of the way LR applies sharpening. (...)

    I was pretty sure I had seen that effect before in LR from a number of different non-Sony cameras.

    So why the misleading headline if you are aware it's not a hardware issue but an Adobe software issue ... ?


    Lightroom ver-5 conversion, default settings, no tweaks at all -- 100 % crop





    Capture One Pro ver-8 conversion, default settings, no tweaks at all -- 100 % crop





    Capture NX-D ver-1 conversion, default settings, no tweaks at all -- 100 % crop



    .

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Adobe Lightroom Orange Peel


    I've seen this so many times before which is why I never upgraded Lightroom after version 5



    The Lightroom ver-5 conversion -- screendump of a zoomed 300 % crop viewed in Photoshop Elements




    Capture One Pro ver-8 conversion -- screendump of a zoomed 300 % crop viewed in Photoshop Elements




    Capture NX-D ver-1 conversion -- screendump of a zoomed 300 % crop viewed in Photoshop Elements


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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    I do not use LR anymore, nor Nikon applications but I found a ViewNX D700 conversion from last year. This ain't noise and can be more visible time to time, like you are able to see the micro-lens pattern on top of the sensor. Maybe this effect is induced by micro lenses ? Anyway, I like it look like the grain out of a Frontier.



    100% - Effect is always more visible in out of focus areas anyway.


    So it seems that renesas sensors benefit of this effect too.

    ... or that LR / ViewNX are just sub par abominations. I do not know if the new NX version or Capture NX bring better results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    No, he did not say that at all. However, he showed a 200% crop of a Sony file showing the same kind of effect I showed in this thread and referred to it as an orange peel effect which he attributed to the Sony camera raw format.
    IMO, any time you are showing something at 200%, it isn't worth showing. The only reason I'm doing it here is because that's how it was demonstrated by LC, who as far as I know, was the first to make something out of this.
    Ha ok. Pardon me I do not read Llyod. There is too much drama Queens / attention whores on this planet. Wont "read" them

    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Adobe Lightroom Orange Peel


    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    (...) I do not know if the new NX version or Capture NX bring better results. (...)

    I for one believe that Capture NX2 and Capture NX-D both use the same demosaicing engine

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/50...ing#post592498

    Still the most accurate color rendition for NEF files in my humble opinion, and I've never seen any Orange Peel artifacts with either.

    Your mileage ... et cetera .-)
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Adobe Lightroom Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post
    So why the misleading headline if you are aware it's not a hardware issue but an Adobe software issue ... ?

    I was speaking with tongue in cheek. There has been a lot of talk about Sony camera orange peel that never ever shows up with Nikon cameras, and I wanted to demonstrate that in fact it is a software issue that can be seen in Nikon cameras as well.

    I could just as easily have made it "Leica orange peel" or "Fisher price camera" orange peel. Didn't mean to offend any Nikon users!
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Can't resist

    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: Adobe Lightroom Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Steen View Post



    I for one believe that Capture NX2 and Capture NX-D both use the same demosaicing engine

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/50...ing#post592498

    Still the most accurate color rendition for NEF files in my humble opinion, and I've never seen any Orange Peel artifacts with either.

    Your mileage ... et cetera .-)
    I agree with that. That software though isn't perfect either.
    I have an image in which both Capture NX2 and Capture NX-D make a distant tree look like cabbage whereas C1 has no problem getting it right.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Hi,

    I don't really know to recognise the orange peel effect. I recall Lloyd's original article and I couldn't identify the issue in his images. It would help to put some marker indicating where the problem lies.

    Just to say, we have different sensivity to different problems. In general, I don't see Diglloid's orange peel. On the other hand I am quite sensitive to colour aliasing and aliasing in general and also axial chromatic aberration. We are sort of different.

    I have noticed on both Diglloyd's (I used to be a subscriber to his site) and Tim Ashley's pages that they sharpen a bit aggressively, something that enhances noise. Now, Lightroom has masking which disables sharpening where gradients are small (sorry for the techno speak). This gives cause to bad edges. As usual we need to get a good compromise between sharpening and masking.

    Now, I see a lot of actual pixel peeping and extreme sharpening. I do that, too. But, in a real world, large images are not intended to be viewed at actual pixels. making prints is a great equaliser.

    Now, I note that Lightroom has two presets, "Portrait" and "Landscape", those have been developed by Jeff Schewe, the guy who wrote the book on sharpening with the late Bruce Frazer. Jeff's settings are intended for printing, of course. But sharpening for "bragging factors" at actual pixels may be a bad choice for any way pictures are published.

    A small hint, use the Landscape preset and sharpen say 20% at 3.0 pixels radius in Photoshop. The latter operation applies sharpening in the area that is affecting our vision.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I'm waiting for my dad to return from a trip so I can borrow his D810 for testing. In the meanwhile, I decided to test this idea that "orange peel" texturing is a uniquely Sony phenomenon by going back through my Lightroom (LR) catalogue and looking at my 14-bit D600 files while using the sharpening settings Tim Ashley shared in another thread.

    Literally the first file I opened in LR - bam, orange peel (OP). Shown here at 200% (same magnification Lloyd Chambers uses to demonstrate Sony OP):




    Raw file for download: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B93...ew?usp=sharing


    RawDigger histogram for this file:




    I maintain that this OP phenomenon is a LR thing and not unique to Sony files.


    If anyone is wondering whether the OP in this Nikon file is visible at 100% in LR, the answer is yes:


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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    I don't really know to recognise the orange peel effect. I recall Lloyd's original article and I couldn't identify the issue in his images. It would help to put some marker indicating where the problem lies.

    Just to say, we have different sensivity to different problems. In general, I don't see Diglloid's orange peel. On the other hand I am quite sensitive to colour aliasing and aliasing in general and also axial chromatic aberration. We are sort of different.

    I have noticed on both Diglloyd's (I used to be a subscriber to his site) and Tim Ashley's pages that they sharpen a bit aggressively, something that enhances noise. Now, Lightroom has masking which disables sharpening where gradients are small (sorry for the techno speak). This gives cause to bad edges. As usual we need to get a good compromise between sharpening and masking.

    Now, I see a lot of actual pixel peeping and extreme sharpening. I do that, too. But, in a real world, large images are not intended to be viewed at actual pixels. making prints is a great equaliser.

    Now, I note that Lightroom has two presets, "Portrait" and "Landscape", those have been developed by Jeff Schewe, the guy who wrote the book on sharpening with the late Bruce Frazer. Jeff's settings are intended for printing, of course. But sharpening for "bragging factors" at actual pixels may be a bad choice for any way pictures are published.

    A small hint, use the Landscape preset and sharpen say 20% at 3.0 pixels radius in Photoshop. The latter operation applies sharpening in the area that is affecting our vision.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Well, I displayed Amin's image at 200% using Tim's sharpening parameters.
    Then l looked at the image with a magnifying glass while varying the Detail parameter between 0% and 100%.
    Can't miss it that way.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Well, I displayed Amin's image at 200% using Tim's sharpening parameters.
    Then l looked at the image with a magnifying glass while varying the Detail parameter between 0% and 100%.
    Can't miss it that way.
    Lightroom and ACR process files differently based on the camera type.

    Try converting files to raw tiffs using something like raw photo pro and then sharpen in Lightroom and the results are identicla

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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    I have looked at the photos in this thread as carefully as I can and I still have no idea whatever what you mean by "orange peel". Can you show me an image that doesn't have it against one that does?

    G

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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Erik, I appreciate your post. Thanks!
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I have looked at the photos in this thread as carefully as I can and I still have no idea whatever what you mean by "orange peel". Can you show me an image that doesn't have it against one that does?

    G
    Here you go with Detail=0%:




    and here with Detail=100%:



    ACR in CS6 was used to process Amin's .NEF file. Crops at 400%.
    I used Tim Ashley's sharpening parameters except for Detail as indicated.
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 29th August 2015 at 14:14.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    I'm curious as to whether this OP effect is seen in any raw processor other than ACR/LR. Does Iridient, for example, show it? The only app I use these days is C1. I used to love Iridient, but I switched to Windows for my main workstation.

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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    K-H, Thanks for the showing what is being talked about! I was looking for something orange in color.

    Here is a capture of a dancer- whole frame resized.

    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr
    Leica MM, Apo Summicron 75/2

    ~400% magnification of a small crop from the above showing the onion rings projected by the aspherical element (I have been look for this for a while from this lens!).

    OPcrop by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

    If I sharpen an image taken with this combo (MM+ 75/2) like the "orange peel" demos, it will never work (will be too brittle- I refer to the images with something in focus).

    What I understood from reading this thread (and another) are these:

    1. There is no Leica "Orange peel".
    2. There is nothing wrong with LR or Adobe products.
    3. If I snap an out of focus image using a RF, I missed the focus patch (being tired or rather some issue with my eye or it was unusable).
    4. Onion ring is easier to spot than "orange peel".

    I will look for that Fisher price camera. Who knows- it may turn out to be a perfect match for my snap work.
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I'm curious as to whether this OP effect is seen in any raw processor other than ACR/LR. Does Iridient, for example, show it? The only app I use these days is C1. I used to love Iridient, but I switched to Windows for my main workstation.
    Yes, Iridium does with an appropriate choice of sharpening parameters, like this:

    Radius = 1.00
    Edge Detail = 500
    Texture/Micro Detail = 25
    Edge Masking = 0

    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    This Orange Peel was produced with Capture One, so C1:



    Sharpening parameters used:

    Amount = 1000
    Radius = 1.0
    Threshhold = 0.0.

    I think the trick is to avoid Orange Peel.
    Therefore this concludes my excursion into that effect.


    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Here you go with Detail=0%:
    ...
    Ah, I see. So this is a visual effect that looks similar to reticulation in temperature shocked film development, caused by sharpening parameters at the extreme limits and visible under very close inspection.

    Okay, I'll move along. Has no meaning for me .. I almost never apply any sharpening to my photos that would cause this. :-)

    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post

    I think the trick is to avoid Orange Peel.



    A few possibilities comes to my mind.
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    A few possibilities comes to my mind.
    BTW, it's easy to produce, but also to avoid!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Yes, Iridium does with an appropriate choice of sharpening parameters, like this...
    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    This Orange Peel was produced with Capture One, so C1...

    Wow, you are the Peel Master! Those are some insane sharpening settings for C1 though .

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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Wow, you are the Peel Master! Those are some insane sharpening settings for C1 though .
    Thanks Amin. No I am not, more the Peel Avoidance type.
    I think the names you mentioned first in this thread are truly deserving of that label.

    All the sharpening settings I used were extreme to show the effect.
    But then it's easy to produce a more subtle kind of Orange Peel or avoid it altogether!
    With best regards, K-H.

  36. #36
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Can't resist


    Very funny. My kind of Orange Peel.
    Thanks for the reminder of Diana Rigg as Mrs Emma Peel.
    Such a great orange glow!
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 29th August 2015 at 21:13.
    With best regards, K-H.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Nikon Orange Peel

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Ah, I see. So this is a visual effect that looks similar to reticulation in temperature shocked film development...
    Best explanation so far about the phenomenon. This is what come closer visually outside informatics pipeline. We can also compare it to a pearl texturing on certain papers.

    Anyway I'm curious to know if it is a physical issue, like micro-lenses layer, or a software issue.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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