React or go the Way of the DODO: DL line canceled

[jduncan]

Hi,
Nikon really needs to improve management:

Nikon | News | Cancellation of release of the DL series of premium compact cameras

Nikon never recovered from the D600 debacle. That was the moment Nikon started to win market share and they let it slip.
It was a once in a lifetime opportunity.
They never nailed the quality control issues from that moment. When Sony decided to displace them, full force, they did not truly react: You never saw Nikon underscoring the TTL support for third party professional flashes, and define a professional camera in the imagination of people as one that does have support from Profoto and the like. (now Sony get, and they do at the same time as Nikon).

Today the saga continues, and as far as I can see with minimal consequences.
I hope they change if they can before is too late: http://www.nikon.com/news/2017/20170213_1_e.pdf

Best regards,

 

[Swissblad]

This is indeed worrisome news...... as most of our photo gear is invested in Nikon..... it would be a bad blow if this were the prelude to a demise.

:shocked:

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Me thinks it's time to launch a very high spec, FX mirrorless. They have shown with the D810 and the D500 that they make the best DSLR bodies. Now it's time to show that they are prepared for the future.

I believe that their DSLR bodies will outsell the mirrorless camera(s) for several years. It is however important to show the customers that they are well prepared. The camera must be bigger and better than a Sony, more like a full frame GH5. I'm sure they can.

 

[ptomsu]

IMHO they have waited far too long!

They should have brought a FX mirrorless to the market already 2 years ago. With IBIS, a new mirrorless lens line and the option to use their FX lenses via and adapter. They could meanwhile already bring the second generation of this camera.

I am sure they could have done this and technically they of course can even now. But meanwhile the System camera competition is so big and advanced (Sony A7RII, Panasonic GH5, etc., Olympus EM1.2, Fuji XT2 and XPro2) that it is already difficult for them, especially if they are running out of money and resources.

I was wondering for the last 4 years why they did not show any presence on the mirrorless market (except their Nikon 1 adventure).

 

[Steen]

Outside-In Perspective


"Outside-In Perspective and the Agile Organization" -- 13 minutes long entertaining and edifying video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn2QXfax6kA&feature=youtu.be

(Book -- Peter F. Drucker -- "The Practice of Management")

 

[Speedgraphic]

We can all speculate on the camera related causes of all this trouble but doesn't the release indicate the primary cause is from their lithography and semiconductor business?

On cameras, Nikon is a company that does a few things exceptionally well and a lot of things worse than pretty much anybody else. Their compact cameras have been garbage with few exceptions, then they can't even bring to market the one compact that anybody expressed interest in. So many "me too" devices. The Nikon 1 has been the lamest camera in mirrorless since it's inception. The DF was too expensive and hobbled by it's AF system. If the DF was $1999 they could have justified that 39pt system and single card slot, but no, it's $2750 for no reason. Then all the QC issues and D600/610 fiasco, completely ridiculous.

That said, nobody makes lenses like the 58mm 1.4 or 105mm 1.4. They have the best IQ "all round" in DSLRs, and their line up is excellent. But like Thom Hogan said, they never explained in their marketing why their cameras are better than the competition. Canon's 5D3 was worse in nearly every way than a D750 or a D810, but it's probably the best selling camera to pros. They should have a D8xx with a BSI sensor by now, and the D750 should be refined around the pro ergonomic set up since so many wedding people prefer it. SMH, Nikon. Talk to your customers. :banghead:

 

[ptomsu]

Honestly so, IMHO it is too late!

 

[routlaw]

I must be living in an alternate universe, photographically speaking.

Just recently I had the opportunity to demo a Nikon 810 & the Sony A7RII at the same time. I liked the Sony for its feel, size and weight and also for the menu system which I thought contrary to many reviews was very intuitive and easy to use. Without a doubt the EVS's have come a long way since I bought my Olympus OMD 1 ME a few years ago. However none of these attributes even came close to outweighing the benefits of the 810, and while the 810 is a somewhat larger camera the weight difference is not that significant, or when compared to the D750 the difference diminishes to only a few ounces and marginally larger. Without going into great detail in both cases either of the Nikon's handily outperform the Sony based upon what I experienced notwithstanding the fewer pixels. I don't care what DXO Mark says or how they lab test cameras the 810 in my experience images better even though it has 20% less pixels.

Cutting to the chase I just don't see what all the fuss is about with mirrorless cameras. Please what am I missing? I can certainly understand the usefulness of one for walking around doing street photography, or vacation trips and some travel photographs but 42 MP for that?

In the meantime short of a few mistakes and missteps from Nikon they have also released some phenomenal cameras & lenses, yet they seem to be the brunt of some extreme vitriolic caustic unforgiving attacks. But what company hasn't tripped up a few times. Personally I really want this venerable camera company to succeed and if they don't I suspect there will many a customer who will lament their demise, myself included.

I bought the Nikon 810 with no hesitation, will probably purchase the D750 later in the year if not sooner and still love my Df. And I just might upgrade my Olympus OMD with the MK2 either that or the Fuji XT-2 for more casual photographs or long grueling hikes when I don't want to carry a lot of weight.

Hopefully this point of view will provide some balance to the subject.

Thanks

 

[rayyan]

If there is to be a demise of Nikon, as some are predicting...
the more reason to enjoy the best camera system produced
by any camera manufacturer.

Either one waits for death, or one enjoys and is
thankful for the current blessings.

The sun shall disintegrate sometime in the future.
Let's all brood and hold a wake.

 

[Dogs857]

Yeah I would agree with that Rob.

I think Nikon cops a lot of flak for little reason. I've shot with the Df for a few years now and find it a fantastic camera. Everyone claims it's hobbled by the autofocus and dials etc. Sure some things could have been implemented a bit better but overall its a great camera. It cost so much because it had the D4 sensor in it which is superb. I think once people heard that they expected the D4 autofocus as well but it's just not that kind of camera. Also Nikon learned from their mistake when the D700 sales ate into the D3 simply because it was the same camera in a different body.

I have also used mirrorless cameras and don't really care for them. For me you can't beat a good OVF. I don't think Nikon are doing anything particularly wrong. Only a few years ago everyone was falling over themselves to get their hands on a D800/E and claiming it to be a gift from God. It was so successful that the D810 has an option to change the way the metering is displayed to satisfy all the Canon shooters who switched over and bitched about the "funny" metering bars.

Companies from time to time will often write off a bad investment / idea and take a hit, Nikon has obviously done that. I don't think they need to wholly change themselves just because Sony sells a few cameras. They make some of the best DLSR's on the market and will continue to do so for a long time.

 

[routlaw]

Well stated Rayyan and Dogs. :clap: Glad I'm not the only one with these thoughts and sentiments.

The vast majority of my work is done using all of these cameras in manual mode, in fact I currently own, only two AF (nikon) lens though I've had used and owned many previously. Perhaps its just part of my old film days mentatality and other things, so The Df suits me perfectly and will be using it for a good portion of my studio work now that I have my D4 up for sale. Great camera but it was totally overkill for me and how I work.

In so many ways after lagging behind for years, Nikon is now at the top of their game, short of a few hiccups which are real and the irony is people seem to hate them. Go figure.

Thanks

 

[Shashin]

Nikon makes great cameras. The camera business has become infinitely more complex today. The whole market is contracting because its consumer base is contracting. People who enjoy the demise of a camera company and the loss of jobs are rather a mystery to me.

 

[rayyan]

I left home about 2 hrs ago. I am waiting in the Etihad Lounge, Abu Dhabi. To catch my flight to SE ASIA.

I was packing 2 Fujis. Thorkil wanted me to add the Fuji 90/2. Too heavy to handhold, for me.

I got in the car.

Got out quickly., took my carry-on upstairs.

Removed 1 Fuji.

Put my the Df in the bag. Threw it in. Along with a 50/1.8

I feel at peace with my travels now.

Do I come across as Nikon biased? You bet. And proud of it. And not without reason, I think. My Df can beat the pants of anything. Me...I hate pants. Can't seem to keep them on my hip. I must see a doctor...ortho.

Best shooting folks.

 

[momo]

Well stated Rayyan and Dogs. :clap: Glad I'm not the only one with these thoughts and sentiments.

The vast majority of my work is done using all of these cameras in manual mode, in fact I currently own, only two AF (nikon) lens though I've had used and owned many previously. Perhaps its just part of my old film days mentatality and other things, so The Df suits me perfectly and will be using it for a good portion of my studio work now that I have my D4 up for sale. Great camera but it was totally overkill for me and how I work.

In so many ways after lagging behind for years, Nikon is now at the top of their game, short of a few hiccups which are real and the irony is people seem to hate them. Go figure.

Thanks

I agree with this post and your first one. I feel pretty much the same. But. I don't think Nikon is at the top of their game.

Ok. I've been reading Thom Hogan's critical analysis of Nikon the past few years. I agree with a lot of his sentiment. Also think he could have helped Nikon.

I personally don't know if mirror less cameras will help nikon or not. I'm not sure what a 20, 30, or 40 year old photographer will buy today.

But Nikon cutting back on service, making it less easy to get cameras repaired is not good for customer satisfaction no matter what you buy.

That SnapBridge still does not work correctly, easily, is just I don't know...why can't they fix that? wifi/bluetooth should be a no brainer in 2017.

And I was sorry to see Nikon dumb down their software after they split with Nik. Man. They had such great software.

They seem to cut costs in spots where they should be throwing more funds, not less. And they need to pay attention to the other camera companies that offer firmware updates. Not only so some fix bugs like the weird snapbridge, but some, like ricoh and fuji add functions, add new ability.

I really like my d700. It still gives satisfaction today. I would hope they continue to upgrade, challenge the rest of the market for decades to come.

So. Although I agree, they have some great bodies and lenses, I don't feel they are at the top of their game.

Oh, and I was looking forward to their DL line. That 18-50mm looked sweet.

On the other hand. I felt from day one their coolpix A was overpriced. I mean way overpriced. I bought a ricoh gr instead for hundreds less. I also always felt it had nothing 'coolpix' about it. It should have been the first 'dl' camera, or something else, but not a coolpix.

Same for their 'v' line of 1'' sensor ilc's. Overpriced for what they were. But I guess they sold tons with their fire sales.

And dang, I was waiting for them to put a 1" sensor in their p7800. That body always seemed way too big for the tiny sensor it had. But I really liked the body, the layout. It felt great in hand.

Ok. Sorry to go on. I wish them luck. I hope nikon continues to give us photographers great bodies and lenses for many moons. They do make some amazing photo tools.

M

 

[ptomsu]

Nikon unfortunately slept for too long during the past years. On top of that they had to cut down costs and did that in areas where they never should have done.

And they completely ignored a serious mirrorless line. Albeit that would have been so easy for both DX and FX. Leica impressively showed hot to do that - think twice - LEICA! A company that was really not known for being innovative only some 10 years ago. It should have been so easy for Nikon to do even better, with all their knowledge and market share.

Lot of that market share is melting away and unfortunately will not get better other than by introducing some ground up revolutionary models. Well it should never be too late, but as I already said I fear it is already VERY late. And just bringing a D820/D850 some 2 years too late will not solve their problem. As does not introducing lenses like the 1.4/105 and the new 2.8/70-200. Not enough market in these areas.

But I wish them luck anyways as I am still invested in their products. SO I do hope they can come up with the real revolutionary concept, disruption better said

 

[jduncan]

We can all speculate on the camera related causes of all this trouble but doesn't the release indicate the primary cause is from their lithography and semiconductor business?

On cameras, Nikon is a company that does a few things exceptionally well and a lot of things worse than pretty much anybody else. Their compact cameras have been garbage with few exceptions, then they can't even bring to market the one compact that anybody expressed interest in. So many "me too" devices. The Nikon 1 has been the lamest camera in mirrorless since it's inception. The DF was too expensive and hobbled by it's AF system. If the DF was $1999 they could have justified that 39pt system and single card slot, but no, it's $2750 for no reason. Then all the QC issues and D600/610 fiasco, completely ridiculous.

That said, nobody makes lenses like the 58mm 1.4 or 105mm 1.4. They have the best IQ "all round" in DSLRs, and their lineup is excellent. But like Thom Hogan said, they never explained in their marketing why their cameras are better than the competition. Canon's 5D3 was worse in nearly every way than a D750 or a D810, but it's probably the best selling camera to pros. They should have a D8xx with a BSI sensor by now, and the D750 should be refined around the pro ergonomic set up since so many wedding people prefer it. SMH, Nikon. Talk to your customers. :bang head:

It seems that the Lithography part is fine: the mayor lost is a writedown. The actual sales are growing. The camera part on the other hand ...
So yes, it's not a doomsday scenario, it's a react now one.
Here an interesting take: DL Turns out to mean Dead List | DSLRBodies | Thom Hogan


Best regards,

 

[routlaw]

Sorry, got very busy the last few days and couldn't get back to this conversation, and perhaps I'm beating a dead horse anyway.

Regardless I have yet to hear one single compelling rational reason why mirrorless cameras are a must have or that it should be the wave of the future especially for professional intent which is all I am concerned with. From my perspective not one single mirrorless camera that I am aware of outperforms the vast majority of Nikon cameras and lenses. Granted the Sony full frame mirrorless comes close in some areas yet is woefully lacking in others. But as one famous ad executive once proclaimed, "perception is reality". So here we are.

Agreed, Nikon software leaves a bit to be desired, but its not something I have used since the Classic D1 anyway. Much better solutions exist compared to NX-2 or Capture NX-D. However I do find Capture Control 2 very useful in the studio. Snapbridge is new to me, wasn't aware of it until just now but it appears its designed for only a handful of cameras anyway. My comment regarding Nikon being at the top of their game was directed at their higher end and prosumer cameras & lenses which have won numerous awards and seem to continue to do so, and justifiably so. With that in mind its difficult to reconcile Nikon loosing market share, let alone falling behind the tech curve.

By comparison Canon and Sony are huge companies with massive marketing clout and budgets. Cameras for Sony are nothing more than a hobby business, albeit a growing one. And its entirely possible their ulterior motive with video, especially the 4K UHD, is nothing more than an effort to increase their market share in display devices as well as royalties derived from Blu Ray and Ultra Blu Ray. Camera and lens sales (and profit) pale in comparison to the royalties Sony receives on this technology, so its in their best interest to assure it thrives. The lack of critical mass adopting Blu Ray has got to be an achilles heel for Sony. Here we are years after Blu Ray was forced onto the market, yet standard definition DVD's and or streaming video content (standard def) possess at least a 10:1 advantage over Blu Ray. If you doubt this, assuming you still have a video rental store in your area, assess the amount of shelving and floor space given to standard dvd's compared to Blu Ray, its huge in favor of dvd's. And now they want to hoist 4K onto the market having abysmally failed at Blu Ray's 1080p. It wasn't that long ago Sony was laying of workers by the hundreds of thousands globally, while Samsung and LG were eating their lunch.

Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside supporting Nikon.:grin::clap:

 

[Steen]

:thumbup: one more vote for a good old-fashioned optical viewfinder, it seems such a luxury compared to a battery-driven viewfinder.
While writing this I am actually about to acquire yet another single-lens reflex camera.
And yes, once again a Nikon (I like the handling and the F mount optics).
I have even come to terms with Capture NX-D, which in my humble opinion provides the most accurate colors for NEF files.
Just my personal preferences of course - choices are good.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Sorry, got very busy the last few days and couldn't get back to this conversation, and perhaps I'm beating a dead horse anyway.

Regardless I have yet to hear one single compelling rational reason why mirrorless cameras are a must have or that it should be the wave of the future especially for professional intent which is all I am concerned with. From my perspective not one single mirrorless camera that I am aware of outperforms the vast majority of Nikon cameras and lenses. Granted the Sony full frame mirrorless comes close in some areas yet is woefully lacking in others. But as one famous ad executive once proclaimed, "perception is reality". So here we are.

Agreed, Nikon software leaves a bit to be desired, but its not something I have used since the Classic D1 anyway. Much better solutions exist compared to NX-2 or Capture NX-D. However I do find Capture Control 2 very useful in the studio. Snapbridge is new to me, wasn't aware of it until just now but it appears its designed for only a handful of cameras anyway. My comment regarding Nikon being at the top of their game was directed at their higher end and prosumer cameras & lenses which have won numerous awards and seem to continue to do so, and justifiably so. With that in mind its difficult to reconcile Nikon loosing market share, let alone falling behind the tech curve.

By comparison Canon and Sony are huge companies with massive marketing clout and budgets. Cameras for Sony are nothing more than a hobby business, albeit a growing one. And its entirely possible their ulterior motive with video, especially the 4K UHD, is nothing more than an effort to increase their market share in display devices as well as royalties derived from Blu Ray and Ultra Blu Ray. Camera and lens sales (and profit) pale in comparison to the royalties Sony receives on this technology, so its in their best interest to assure it thrives. The lack of critical mass adopting Blu Ray has got to be an achilles heel for Sony. Here we are years after Blu Ray was forced onto the market, yet standard definition DVD's and or streaming video content (standard def) possess at least a 10:1 advantage over Blu Ray. If you doubt this, assuming you still have a video rental store in your area, assess the amount of shelving and floor space given to standard dvd's compared to Blu Ray, its huge in favor of dvd's. And now they want to hoist 4K onto the market having abysmally failed at Blu Ray's 1080p. It wasn't that long ago Sony was laying of workers by the hundreds of thousands globally, while Samsung and LG were eating their lunch.

Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside supporting Nikon.:grin::clap:

It's not a question of what works best but what the marketing departments of giants like Sony tell people to buy. For stills photography, few if any make cameras as good as those from Nikon. But sooner or later, the big electronics players will succeed in creating the critical mass needed to convince a majority of buyers that mirrorless and only mirrorless is the future. Those who are not successful in the mirrorless market will be seen as backwards and uninnovative by all but a few connoisseurs.

I doubt that Sony's camera division is making money from mirrorless cameras, and agree that they have other motives for keeping it alive. If and when Canon and Nikon launch well functioning full frame mirrorless cameras, Sony can most probably pack up their A7 bodies and go home, like what happened with their DSLR cameras. There is however a limited time window for this, and Nikon needs to jump on that train before mirrorless market shares reach sensible levels, even if they will lose money on the effort for several years.

I am probably a good example of what will be happening. I changed from Nikon (D810) to m4/3 (E-M1) to save money but wasn't very satisfied. However, with my current camera, the GX8, I see no reason to go back to DSLR and/or a larger format. The image quality of the D810 is superior, but what I get from the Panasonic is good enough, and the lenses are better, smaller and/or cheaper. If Nikon had a viable mirrorless alternative, I wouldn't have discovered that.

 

[Steen]

:thumbup: one more vote for a good old-fashioned optical viewfinder, it seems such a luxury compared to a battery-driven viewfinder.
While writing this I am actually about to acquire yet another single-lens reflex camera.
And yes, once again a Nikon (I like the handling and the F mount optics).

Even Kyrie Irving seems to agree, what more do we need to add :lecture:
One of the best shooters the world has ever seen :thumbup: