Fujikon?

[Vivek]

Fuji trying to help out the beleaguered Nikon:

Prestigious Japanese magazine Sentaku confirms Nikon-Fuji partnership rumors - mirrorlessrumors

 

[Shashin]

The question would be why? Nikon is part of the Mitsubishi group, which is one of the richest industrial and banking groups in Japan. Nikon is also one of the smallest companies in the group.

 

[Vivek]

https://sentaku-en.com/articles/2016/07/bank-of-tokyo-mitsubishi-ufj-a-big-bank-in-big-trouble.html

The question would be why? Nikon is part of the Mitsubishi group, which is one of the richest industrial and banking groups in Japan. Nikon is also one of the smallest companies in the group.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

The question would be why? Nikon is part of the Mitsubishi group, which is one of the richest industrial and banking groups in Japan. Nikon is also one of the smallest companies in the group.

If Nikon isn't profitable in its current form, Mitsubishi would be looking for a development that might make them profitable. Fuji and Nikon has always looked like an interesting partnership. Although their knowledge and technology overlap in several areas, they have moved in different directions within others.

One of the most important possibilities is the fact that they would have the knowledge and technology to make their own sensors. Fuji made some pretty spectacular ones in the past, and Nikon produces some of the machinery (steppers) to make it real. Being dependent on Sony for sensors will increasingly become a handicap for both of them, and Sony have stated very clearly that the latest technology will be reserved for Sony cameras in the future.

 

[iiiNelson]

If Nikon isn't profitable in its current form, Mitsubishi would be looking for a development that might make them profitable. Fuji and Nikon has always looked like an interesting partnership. Although their knowledge and technology overlap in several areas, they have moved in different directions within others.

One of the most important possibilities is the fact that they would have the knowledge and technology to make their own sensors. Fuji made some pretty spectacular ones in the past, and Nikon produces some of the machinery (steppers) to make it real. Being dependent on Sony for sensors will increasingly become a handicap for both of them, and Sony have stated very clearly that the latest technology will be reserved for Sony cameras in the future.

Except Sony makes sensors for them both Fuji and Nikon. Nikon did produce some sensors in collaboration with Toshiba for the 5xxx series but I don't know if that's still the case.

I presume that Samsung could potentially be a new supplier but I would gather that they would rather focus on smaller imaging sensors for cellphone manufacturers as that seems to be going along with profit trends... which leads to a no brainer financial decision in that Nikon can license their name and lens design for cell phone OEM's and eliminate unneccessary non-system cameras (for instance keep refreshing an advanced amateur 1" sensor compact cam, a compact super zoom, entry level DSLR, prosumer DSLR, pro body APS-C/FX DSLR, and a all around/high megapixel compact pro body... the. Maybe introduce an afforadable prosumer mirrorless. Get rid of all the fluff like KeyMission cams, Nikon 1 crap, the D5xxx series, the D6xx series, the Dxx series, and all of those compact cameras in markets where they don't sell in high volume for the segment.

The Nikon name still has value and heritage with many people and we've seen Leica and Zeiss both do this for cell phones, compact cameras, and system cameras (Huawei, Panasonic, Sony, and cell phone lens adapters) to infuse cash into their brands.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Except Sony makes sensors for them both Fuji and Nikon. Nikon did produce some sensors in collaboration with Toshiba for the 5xxx series but I don't know if that's still the case.

The whole point of that exercise would be to become independent from Sony for most sensor supplies. Together, Fuji and Nikon probably has enough volume to make it financially viable, at least for the most used DX and FX sensors.

The Nikon/Toshiba collaboration went very well, and the sensor (24MP DX size) was better than the equivalent Sony at the time. If I remember correctly it was used first in one of the 7xxx models. Sony's answer to the challenge was to buy the Toshiba division that made the sensor, so they are back in control.

No company wants to source vital parts from another company that in reality has a monopoly in their market, particularly when they show, as Sony did in this case, that their intention is to maintain that monopoly. As it is now, Sony can decide what sensors are available to Fuji and Nikon and at what price.

 

[Vivek]

It is not a qusetion of Sony vs Nikon. Nikon are in genuine trouble and are getting help. Hopefully, that is enough for them to survive.

Also, hopefully, the Zeiss consortium will not run them to the ground over patent infringements.

 

[Steen]

(...) and Sony have stated very clearly that the latest technology will be reserved for Sony cameras in the future.

Or maybe not all that "very clearly" ?
Try reading the extended editorial note from Dave Etchells, Imaging-Resource

http://www.imaging-resource.com/new...mapping-out-the-future-of-the-interchangeable

The extended editorial note goes from:
"[An extended editorial note from Dave Etchells: This has been the subject of a *lot* of misinformation, misinterpretation and speculation on the 'web, so let me attempt to set the record straight... "

(...)

and, more than 40 lines further down, it ends by saying:
"So let's be clear: Sony isn't somehow holding back their "good" sensors for use in their own cameras;
it's instead more about taking advantage of the fact that their camera and sensor engineers are able to collaborate with each other, developing new camera architectures that take advantage of their unique integration capabilities.
This isn't news, it's just that current advances mean that overall system architecture plays a bigger role than it did in the past.]"

Well, I dunno.
But admittedly I have often wondered why Nikon never established their own sensor manufacturing company.
In the declining camera market they could certainly use another leg for their business.

 

[iiiNelson]

The whole point of that exercise would be to become independent from Sony for most sensor supplies. Together, Fuji and Nikon probably has enough volume to make it financially viable, at least for the most used DX and FX sensors.

The Nikon/Toshiba collaboration went very well, and the sensor (24MP DX size) was better than the equivalent Sony at the time. If I remember correctly it was used first in one of the 7xxx models. Sony's answer to the challenge was to buy the Toshiba division that made the sensor, so they are back in control.

No company wants to source vital parts from another company that in reality has a monopoly in their market, particularly when they show, as Sony did in this case, that their intention is to maintain that monopoly. As it is now, Sony can decide what sensors are available to Fuji and Nikon and at what price.

Starting a sensor fabrication business when camera sales are already hurting doesn't seem like sound business practices. It's sorta like choosing to gamble away the money for food that can get you through to better times in hopes of luck.

Doesn't matter though Fuji and Nikon are buying sensors from Sony (and it was the 5xxx series that Nikon was utilizing Toshiba sensors for) and I don't see that going away for the foreseeable future. Sony doesn't have a monopoly on the industry. Canon is going strong, Panasonic and Samsung are as well. Maybe they still have a surplus of NX sensors that can be upgraded for future bodies. They certainly have an ability to produce BSI sensors that could make for a different supply stream.

 

[Steen]

Fujikon ?

Starting a sensor fabrication business when camera sales are already hurting doesn't seem like sound business practices. (...)

Image sensors are used in lots of other gadgets than dedicated cameras, like automotive sensors and cell phone camera sensors etc.
AFAIK image sensors in dedicated cameras are only a fraction of the entire sensor production.
That's actually the core problem for the camera industry, the telephones are taking over

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Starting a sensor fabrication business when camera sales are already hurting doesn't seem like sound business practices. It's sorta like choosing to gamble away the money for food that can get you through to better times in hopes of luck.

Doesn't matter though Fuji and Nikon are buying sensors from Sony (and it was the 5xxx series that Nikon was utilizing Toshiba sensors for) and I don't see that going away for the foreseeable future. Sony doesn't have a monopoly on the industry. Canon is going strong, Panasonic and Samsung are as well. Maybe they still have a surplus of NX sensors that can be upgraded for future bodies. They certainly have an ability to produce BSI sensors that could make for a different supply stream.

The D5200 and the D7100 used the same Toshiba sensor. As for Samsung going strong, yes their phone business is. Their camera business isn't going anywhere.

Yes, it does matter that Fuji and Nikon buy sensors from one of their main competitors. Even if Sony doesn't give priority to their own cameras, it is an in-house operation. Those who develop Sony's cameras will always get the latest information first and be able to prepare new cameras for the latest sensors, like with the A9. It's interesting to see also that the 42MP 35mm sensor is used in at least three Sony bodies but in no other bodies (correct me if I'm wrong).

None of us knows what kind of agreements have been made between Sony and their sensor customers, but being a relative newcomer in the photography market, it would be naive to think that Sony doesn't use the fact that they control a large part of the sensor market for all it's worth. They are running a business after all. One can of course claim that the customers could go elsewhere, and for a while, they could with Toshiba, and the alternatives seem to be very limited.

 

[Vivek]

Again, it is not about Sony. If Zeiss extract a pound of flesh from Nikon for patent infringements, it is all over for them (Nikon). Sadly, the 100th anniversary celebrations then would have to be done with the new protection filters.

 

[iiiNelson]

The D5200 and the D7100 used the same Toshiba sensor. As for Samsung going strong, yes their phone business is. Their camera business isn't going anywhere.

Yes, it does matter that Fuji and Nikon buy sensors from one of their main competitors. Even if Sony doesn't give priority to their own cameras, it is an in-house operation. Those who develop Sony's cameras will always get the latest information first and be able to prepare new cameras for the latest sensors, like with the A9. It's interesting to see also that the 42MP 35mm sensor is used in at least three Sony bodies but in no other bodies (correct me if I'm wrong).

None of us knows what kind of agreements have been made between Sony and their sensor customers, but being a relative newcomer in the photography market, it would be naive to think that Sony doesn't use the fact that they control a large part of the sensor market for all it's worth. They are running a business after all. One can of course claim that the customers could go elsewhere, and for a while, they could with Toshiba, and the alternatives seem to be very limited.

Fair enough on the D5200 and 7100... Nikon seems to have returned to the Sony sensors after that for the D7200.

The 42mp sensor is ONLY used in the A7RII as of now. Priority may in fact go with Sony for their experimental sensors but development down the line benefits the entire industry as a whole and that's the catch 22. Even if a company doesn't get the marketing bragging rights initially in the 35mm market, the other side of that is the 35mm and MF market receives dramatically better and more refined sensors down the line.

Samsung imaging sensors are still going strong even if the camera side is dead. That was the point. They still conduct new development on imaging sensors as they're a huge supplier for the cellphone market AND Samsung has the know how and facilities to produce larger sensors for cameras.

Youre correct in saying that no one knows which way any of this will go (and frankly I don't own Nikon anything tocare enough about the long term future of the company as a whole) but it is interesting from a business and camera market perspective about how the market as a whole will possibly shift.

 

[iiiNelson]

Re: Fujikon ?

Image sensors are used in lots of other gadgets than dedicated cameras, like automotive sensors and cell phone camera sensors etc.
AFAIK image sensors in dedicated cameras are only a fraction of the entire sensor production.
That's actually the core problem for the camera industry, the telephones are taking over

Agreed, understand, and that's not the argument. Imaging sensors are used for everything from cameras, medical devices, military applications, automotive, surveying, and commercial sensors of many types.

The issue is financing production of, having fabricated products to sell, and hiring engineers to design imaging sensors when the long term future of your camera business is uncertain would be an additional risk I wouldn't take if I was financial entity already being asked to infuse money into a dying brand.

 

[iiiNelson]

I will say this there are a few other areas where this partnership could be really viable for both brands.

For Fuji, having access to Nikon's AF technology to improve their cameras would be huge for the X and GFX series. I believe most believe that Fujifilm is behind all of the other major mirrorless camera makers in accuracy (though speed is comparable). Also having access to being sold in wider markets and stores would be beneficial for Fuji.

For Nikon, having access to Fuji's color science and mirrorless know how would be very beneficial to Nikon in creating a serious mirrorless competitor in the FF segment.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

I will say this there are a few other areas where this partnership could be really viable for both brands.

For Fuji, having access to Nikon's AF technology to improve their cameras would be huge for the X and GFX series. I believe most believe that Fujifilm is behind all of the other major mirrorless camera makers in accuracy (though speed is comparable). Also having access to being sold in wider markets and stores would be beneficial for Fuji.

For Nikon, having access to Fuji's color science and mirrorless know how would be very beneficial to Nikon in creating a serious mirrorless competitor in the FF segment.

You are very right about this, and it's important to remember that in spite of its lacking success, the Nikon V3 offers some of the best AF in any mirrorless camera.

As for the Sony 42MP sensor, I don't think you are right. I seem to remember that the RX1R II and the A99 II also use that sensor. There may be many reasons why Nikon and Pentax don't use it, price being an obvious one. We'll see what happens next. There will probably be a D820 or something soon.

Whatever happens, I'll still use Fuji, Kodak and Ilford sensors in my F6

 

[iiiNelson]

You are very right about this, and it's important to remember that in spite of its lacking success, the Nikon V3 offers some of the best AF in any mirrorless camera.

As for the Sony 42MP sensor, I don't think you are right. I seem to remember that the RX1R II and the A99 II also use that sensor. There may be many reasons why Nikon and Pentax don't use it, price being an obvious one. We'll see what happens next. There will probably be a D820 or something soon.

Whatever happens, I'll still use Fuji, Kodak and Ilford sensors in my F6

Yeah I remembered those later on and forgot to correct. I'm out of A mount except for the 135/1.8 I still own for now.

Nikon completely missed the boat with the 1 series for all the same reasons and more with the tiny sensor that Sony missed the boat with the NEX cameras prior to the 7 and 6 series. It was overpriced for what they were until they started to liquidate them in Black Friday deals.

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

Re: Fujikon ?

Image sensors are used in lots of other gadgets than dedicated cameras, like automotive sensors and cell phone camera sensors etc.
AFAIK image sensors in dedicated cameras are only a fraction of the entire sensor production.
That's actually the core problem for the camera industry, the telephones are taking over

Yes this is the core problem. Smartphones are taking over in many sectors of photography. This weekend I was in a 3 days music festival and I seen the usual photographers, old friends, lugging around tones of gear, huge bags, stabilisators ... they were sweating a lot, they didn't enjoyed the moment at all. I was here to work for a music media and I decided to take my IPhone only. Guess what ? My pics are ok and the videos awesome. I made the coverage almost in direct, sending pics and videos imediatelly. The thing is that the audience for pictures and video (images contents) is young. This audience is between 12 to 35 and they are used to have thing very quickly, do not care that much about pixel perfect quality. They need to occupy their minds with things all the time.

The phone will not make better pictures than a good FF with good lenses, especially for concert, but the transition is here and I see all advantages of it. Especially when I get paid to have fun while my friend get paid to suffer

 

[Steen]

Fujikon ?


Et tu, Brute

 

[tcdeveau]

Re: Fujikon ?

Yes this is the core problem. Smartphones are taking over in many sectors of photography. This weekend I was in a 3 days music festival and I seen the usual photographers, old friends, lugging around tones of gear, huge bags, stabilisators ... they were sweating a lot, they didn't enjoyed the moment at all. I was here to work for a music media and I decided to take my IPhone only. Guess what ? My pics are ok and the videos awesome. I made the coverage almost in direct, sending pics and videos imediatelly. The thing is that the audience for pictures and video (images contents) is young. This audience is between 12 to 35 and they are used to have thing very quickly, do not care that much about pixel perfect quality. They need to occupy their minds with things all the time.

The phone will not make better pictures than a good FF with good lenses, especially for concert, but the transition is here and I see all advantages of it. Especially when I get paid to have fun while my friend get paid to suffer

Size of gear and immediacy of media availability I think are definitely two of the major problems facing Nikon (and Canon). Having shot/owned Nikon for years (up to D810), it's hard to imagine going back to the size/weight of traditional 35mm gear after using mirrorless for awhile. The last wedding I shot with a D800 and 70-200 2.8 I was sore for a week or two afterwards.

Regarding the availability of content, it's not just about the audience age, but social media in general. The last few weddings/engagements I've shot or have been a part of shooting ppl have pics and video up almost immediately on social media, and by the time I've gotten around to delivering the post-processed final product to the couple, the event has almost been forgotten about. I've delivered some pics where I've just sent the in-camera jpegs to my phone via wifi, done some quick touch ups with photoshop express, texted the pic and they've posted on instagram/facebook, and the clients have been just as happy with those as the final products...despite the loss in quality from a low-res wifi-transferred edited JPEG vs full-res properly processed RAW.