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Nikon mirrorless ?

biglouis

Well-known member
I suspect that there has been so much traffic to Dpreview's website because of the articles on Nikon mirrorless that it has crashed. I'm getting error 404s from a lot of pages.

So far, what I've seen, what a damn shame this uses a new mount.

Just my two cents.

LouisB
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
I think it's important to understand that the Z6/7 are basically mirrorless versions of two of Nikon's best cameras ever, the D750 and D850, but with much improved video functionality. They are almost exactly the same size as the E-M1 II and significantly smaller than the G9 and X-H1. I'm a bit sceptical to the lack of fn-buttons compared to Panasonic's top models, and many will blame Nikon for only offering one card slot, but all in all, I have a feeling that these two cameras are exactly what many or most Nikon users have expected.

After shooting more than 500,000 frames with digital cameras, I've only once had a card fail, and it was easy to recover with some software I downloaded from the internet. Cards are getting increasingly reliable. For most of my life, I've been taking photos using some flimsy plastic material that is sensitive to light, humidity, heat etc. Not even with that storage medium have I lost many images due to media failure, except for once when Ferrania returned the wrong roll of film to me.

The new, large lens mount is great news, and it will make the Nikons the go-to cameras for those wanting to adapt weird lenses. In addition, it opens up endless possibilities for developing ultra-fast lenses similar to the 58mm f/0.95 already announced, not to speak about new generations of t/s and other specialty lenses. I won't speculate about the consequences for Sony, but I do have my suspicions. Making a camera with more features or megapixels won't be enough for their 4th generation. Features don't make images, photographers do.

It will also be interesting to see what third party suppliers of lenses will come up with, particularly Zeiss, who probably has some kind of agreement with Sony. Hopefully, that doesn't prevent them to launch Z-mount versions of the Loxia and Batis lenses that are now available in E-mount.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
I'll reserve my final judgement after the camera is out and in the hands of many, much better than being guided by the current hype and "so called" objective testers.

So far I haven't seen anything that excites me over other cameras that are already on the market or would motivate me to get one, to the contrary to me it feels like a "me too" design/specs copied from the current market leader with a larger form factor which certainly for me is the wrong direction.

Even this "raving" Seth Miranda video linked above is quite silly, there's nothing that would have stopped him doing exactly the same thing 1 or 2 years ago, nothing in there isn't possible with cameras that were released in 2017 or 2016. :loco:

For sure it will be a formidable competitor to Sony, but currently more on brand name and brand loyalty than objective differences.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
The new, large lens mount is great news, and it will make the Nikons the go-to cameras for those wanting to adapt weird lenses. In addition, it opens up endless possibilities for developing ultra-fast lenses similar to the 58mm f/0.95 already announced, not to speak about new generations of t/s and other specialty lenses.
Are you sure? I never heard the smaller M and E mounts limit the use of Noctilux type lenses.
Also there's many people using Cambo or other T/S contraptions on E-mount.

So theoretically it may be an advantage to have a larger mount, but I see no evidence that existing smaller mounts are limiting the type of applications you are talking about.
 

Bugleone

Well-known member
The only logical scenario for the large lens mount is that Nikon has noted what happened with Sony NEX into a7 series and has planned for a bigger sensor down the road, to rival Hasselblad/GFX

.........Did'nt expect the Z's to be imaginative or different and thus not disappointed.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
Are you sure? I never heard the smaller M and E mounts limit the use of Noctilux type lenses.
Also there's many people using Cambo or other T/S contraptions on E-mount.

So theoretically it may be an advantage to have a larger mount, but I see no evidence that existing smaller mounts are limiting the type of applications you are talking about.
It's not much of a limitation for adapted lenses designed for a longer flange to sensor distance, since the exit pupil will be further from the lens mount. It is however a limitation if you want to design an ultrafast lens that utilises the shorter flange distance. Sigma has already stated that this is a problem, and there are as far as I know no f/1.0 or faster lenses available that are native to E-mount.

The advantage of the A7's small size falls quickly to the ground if lenses have to be made longer to create the necessary distance.

When it comes to size in general, both Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji and Sony have made their top models larger the last few years, probably due to customer demand. The new Nikon cameras fall in the middle of this, being almost exactly the same size as the E-M1 II, although with a taller "prism" house.

Edit: It's also worth remembering that the narrow F-mount is one of the reason for Nikon not being able to design an f/1.2 lens for that mount. The excellent Samyang 50 and 85mm f/1.2 are not available in F-mount for the same reason. They are currently only being made for EF-mount.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
It's not much of a limitation for adapted lenses designed for a longer flange to sensor distance, since the exit pupil will be further from the lens mount.
Actually, it is.

The UV-Nikkor close to its minimum focus (1:2)vignettes on A7 cams regardless of the adapter used. This will be minimized or absent with the larger mount.

In otherwords, it benefits the adapted lenses the most. There will be a lot of F mount lenses used on these cameras.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
It's not much of a limitation for adapted lenses designed for a longer flange to sensor distance, since the exit pupil will be further from the lens mount. It is however a limitation if you want to design an ultrafast lens that utilises the shorter flange distance. Sigma has already stated that this is a problem, and there are as far as I know no f/1.0 or faster lenses available that are native to E-mount.

The advantage of the A7's small size falls quickly to the ground if lenses have to be made longer to create the necessary distance.

When it comes to size in general, both Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji and Sony have made their top models larger the last few years, probably due to customer demand. The new Nikon cameras fall in the middle of this, being almost exactly the same size as the E-M1 II, although with a taller "prism" house.

Edit: It's also worth remembering that the narrow F-mount is one of the reason for Nikon not being able to design an f/1.2 lens for that mount. The excellent Samyang 50 and 85mm f/1.2 are not available in F-mount for the same reason. They are currently only being made for EF-mount.
There are 2 native E-mount f/0.95 lenses on the market right now and they’ve been on the market for some time actually.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
I have the Mitakon Zhongyi Speedmaster 50/0.95 FE.
Had it for close to 2 years I believe. Works just fine.
It’s the second version and seems solidly built.

I also got the historic Noct-Nikkor 58/1.2 and the Nikkor 50/1.2 in F-mount.
I use both with AF on my Sony A7r.2 and A9 with the TAP autofocus adapter.
TAP = TechArt Pro adapter.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
The Z6 looks like my camera. It's a bit disappointing that there's no telephoto prime longer than 85mm on the roadmap.
Are you comfortable with the 310 shot CIPA rating on battery life on the Z6? Is that enough battery life for you? Seemed to be a deal breaker in the past but maybe your shooting needs have changed.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
A vertical grip with an extra battery should take care of that. They look like they need a grip anyway.

Are you comfortable with the 310 shot CIPA rating on battery life on the Z6? Is that enough battery life for you? Seemed to be a deal breaker in the past but maybe your shooting needs have changed.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I have the Mitakon Zhongyi Speedmaster 50/0.95 FE.
Had it for close to 2 years I believe. Works just fine.
It’s the second version and seems solidly built.

I also got the historic Noct-Nikkor 58/1.2 and the Nikkor 50/1.2 in F-mount.
I use both with AF on my Sony A7r.2 and A9 with the TAP autofocus adapter.
Oh yeah... I forgot there are 2 versions of the Mitakon so actually there are 3 native f/0.95 lenses in the market in E-mount.

Then there’s the f/1.2 lenses from Voigtlander.
 
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V

Vivek

Guest
The announced 35/1.8 and 50/1.8 at $599/piece is a nice big slap on Sony’s face.

Hope they will take the hit and come up with some useful and affordable 35and 50mm.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Well - finally after watching and reading many first hand reviews as well as the Nikon announcement ..... I must say that in best case I am really, Really, REALLY UNDERWHELMED!

Sorry Nikon but I think you dropped the ball

1) one one card slot - even m43 cameras have nowadays 2 card slots
2) XQD card only - these were already a big failure in some Nikon DSLRs and the market is clearly moving towards C-Fast and SD
3) no Eye AF - this will make Sony (users) just laugh about Nikon competition
4) same battery as in D850 etc. - this is a shame Nikon - you are presenting your mirrorless camera which offers that perfect Z mount for the next 100 years and then you stay with batteries that are just a BS-joke for a mirrorless camera - 350 shots rated? come on

I could go on but will leave further disappointments out for now as maybe we get surprised by whatever - but I have my doubts!

I really had hoped for more!

But hey - there is still Canon that will launch their FF mirrorless in a few weeks and maybe they do better. And there definitely is Sony who obviously have it easy now to launch their next incarnation of mirrorless FF that will blow Nikon just out of the boat - and NO I am NOT a Sony fanboy, but after this Nikon debacle there is at least hope from Sony and Canon :banghead:

And finally the good thing - actually now I do not see any immediate need for upgrading my Olympus PRO m43 system to Nikon FF. Rather wait and see what comes ....
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
The announced 35/1.8 and 50/1.8 at $599/piece is a nice big slap on Sony’s face.

Hope they will take the hit and come up with some useful and affordable 35and 50mm.
The 35/1.8 is listed at $850 in USA but you are correct on the 50/1.8 being listed at $600. The logical and easy answer is for Sony to drop the price of the 55/1.8 to say $700... and come out with an updated 35mm but I’d say the 28/2 isn’t bad at $450 either. I’d certainly take it over the 35/2.8 that I hated.
 

Thorkil

Well-known member
..it just felt really nice to hold, feels very secure, buttons etc also very secure and best Nikon quality - and the camera felt smaller than it looked at the pictures, a bit smaller than the Fuji X-H1 except for the viewfinder.
The viewfinder a bit electronic but perhaps actually less electronic feeling than my Fuji X-T2.
But nothing compares to an optical viewfinder. But I think I could live with it.
But I wount sell my Df if I buy one (have preordered, just together with adapter, wont buy any z-lenses now (unless perhaps the 24-70 to cure the foreseen abstinenses), but wait for the 20/1.8 and perhaps the Noct 58 in 2019)
And the Z6 a bit cheaper than the Sony A7III, so price is just spot-on.

PS it felt nicer to hold than my X-T2....and my Df
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Well - finally after watching and reading many first hand reviews as well as the Nikon announcement ..... I must say that in best case I am really, Really, REALLY UNDERWHELMED!

Sorry Nikon but I think you dropped the ball

1) one one card slot - even m43 cameras have nowadays 2 card slots
2) XQD card only - these were already a big failure in some Nikon DSLRs and the market is clearly moving towards C-Fast and SD
3) no Eye AF - this will make Sony (users) just laugh about Nikon competition
4) same battery as in D850 etc. - this is a shame Nikon - you are presenting your mirrorless camera which offers that perfect Z mount for the next 100 years and then you stay with batteries that are just a BS-joke for a mirrorless camera - 350 shots rated? come on

I could go on but will leave further disappointments out for now as maybe we get surprised by whatever - but I have my doubts!

I really had hoped for more!

But hey - there is still Canon that will launch their FF mirrorless in a few weeks and maybe they do better. And there definitely is Sony who obviously have it easy now to launch their next incarnation of mirrorless FF that will blow Nikon just out of the boat - and NO I am NOT a Sony fanboy, but after this Nikon debacle there is at least hope from Sony and Canon :banghead:

And finally the good thing - actually now I do not see any immediate need for upgrading my Olympus PRO m43 system to Nikon FF. Rather wait and see what comes ....
In all fairness this camera is a decent start for them and about what I expected from them in all honesty - Something that was about on the level with generation 2 Sony cameras like the A7RII and in some respects approaching what’s available in generation 3 bodies. In reality that was the first Sony Mirrorless that got just about everything right for MOST people objectively. I think for many that want to stay into the Nikon ecosystem this camera will give them what others have had for years now with the menus they love and the batteries they already use. In that sense it’s a success so that Nikon can stop the bleeding. I don’t doubt they simultaneously working on a “Z9” body alongside their D6 that essentially will take all those features and make them “Mirrorless.” I would doubt that we saw the Z9 by Christmas 2019 if the Z6/7 are a huge commercial success.

I agree with you that Canon is really the one to watch out for being that they have Mirrorless experience and success in some markets. I think it’ll be a much more direct competitor to the Sony cameras and I think it’ll affect Sony sales the most by the very nature that many Sony shooters came from Canon but never bought fully into the Sony system in regards to buying lenses. A lot of people bought Sony because they wanted Mirrorless features to be used with Canon lenses (though I’d argue the best Sony lenses are as good if not better than the beat Canon/Nikon/ Etc. Lenses) and to have a sensor with more dynamic range.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
In all fairness this camera is a decent start for them and about what I expected from them in all honesty - Something that was about on the level with generation 2 Sony cameras like the A7RII and in some respects approaching what’s available in generation 3 bodies. In reality that was the first Sony Mirrorless that got just about everything right for MOST people objectively. I think for many that want to stay into the Nikon ecosystem this camera will give them what others have had for years now with the menus they love and the batteries they already use. In that sense it’s a success so that Nikon can stop the bleeding. I don’t doubt they simultaneously working on a “Z9” body alongside their D6 that essentially will take all those features and make them “Mirrorless.” I would doubt that we saw the Z9 by Christmas 2019 if the Z6/7 are a huge commercial success.

I agree with you that Canon is really the one to watch out for being that they have Mirrorless experience and success in some markets. I think it’ll be a much more direct competitor to the Sony cameras and I think it’ll affect Sony sales the most by the very nature that many Sony shooters came from Canon but never bought fully into the Sony system in regards to buying lenses. A lot of people bought Sony because they wanted Mirrorless features to be used with Canon lenses (though I’d argue the best Sony lenses are as good if not better than the beat Canon/Nikon/ Etc. Lenses) and to have a sensor with more dynamic range.
The Nikon's would have been a decent answer back in 2016 - 2017 was already too late because Sony launched the A9.

Also agree they should have some high end pro model in the works like a Z9. Would make sense.

But that does not change anything WRT that Nikon is at least 2 years late to the party.

One note WRT the .95/50 - this is said to be MF only. What a waste if that is true. What benefit does it than have above a Leica .95/Noctilux (maybe except price). Makes me think I just should get a used M10 with EVF as soon as some folks step up to the M10-P and start using my wonderful 1/50 Noctilux :clap:
 
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