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Nikon mirrorless ?

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Don't believe for a second that Nikon hasn't made dozens of working prototypes the last few years. The problems with the "1" series I believe were three:

- The V1, which was too limited and destroyed their reputation in one go.
- The sensor size.
- Most people don't really want cameras that are that small, at least not at the advanced level. There's a reason why there is no Pana GM6.

I had a chat with my local dealer this morning, and we agreed that the first full frame model from Nikon will probably be a very high end one, possibly more expensive than the A9. And why should they limit themselves to 35mm? They can do what Fuji has done very successfully, launch a medium format high end model and sell DX to those who can't afford it. Fuji is extremely successful in Asia with this concept, and Asia is the biggest market for mirrorless. That way, they could leav Canon and Sony to compete in the FX market, which will undoubtedly will be a cut-throat affair.
IMHO it is very unlikely that Nikon will get into MFD now - they have their reputation as one of the leading 35mm FF brands and if they leave their loyal remaining customers in the rain by not bringing a FF mirrorless that sounds like economic suicide to me. Also MFD will be always much slower and not come close enough to the AF capabilities of modern and next generation FF sensors, which are obviously (at least listening to the discussions about speed in this thread) the main criteria for a number of Nikon shooters.

I already said that the perfect camera size (for me and obviously many other serious photographers - I avoid intentionality calling them professionals) is the Fuji X-H1, maybe a bit smaller or larger, but with comfortable grip. The Sony A9 and A7 series are definitely too small. So hopefully they manage to cramp their FF mirrorless tech into such a body - without too much retro look but ergonomic, logical and good operability and this would be a perfect starting point.

Maybe later they could add MFD with all their achieved mirrorless knowledge then and that would maybe make sense.
 

Jorgen Udvang

Subscriber Member
IMHO it is very unlikely that Nikon will get into MFD now - they have their reputation as one of the leading 35mm FF brands and if they leave their loyal remaining customers in the rain by not bringing a FF mirrorless that sounds like economic suicide to me. Also MFD will be always much slower and not come close enough to the AF capabilities of modern and next generation FF sensors, which are obviously (at least listening to the discussions about speed in this thread) the main criteria for a number of Nikon shooters.

I already said that the perfect camera size (for me and obviously many other serious photographers - I avoid intentionality calling them professionals) is the Fuji X-H1, maybe a bit smaller or larger, but with comfortable grip. The Sony A9 and A7 series are definitely too small. So hopefully they manage to cramp their FF mirrorless tech into such a body - without too much retro look but ergonomic, logical and good operability and this would be a perfect starting point.

Maybe later they could add MFD with all their achieved mirrorless knowledge then and that would maybe make sense.
Nothing will always be like it was or is. Just look at the difference between MF sensors before and after Sony entered the market.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Don't believe for a second that Nikon hasn't made dozens of working prototypes the last few years.
And put them in Sony or Fuji shells so they won't get spotted in the field :grin:

For the rest your guess (speculation) is as good as mine, we'll see how it develops but it's interesting times anyway.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
The Sony A9 and A7 series are definitely too small.
For you maybe, but for me they're perfect and actually I have quite big hands. My 2nd hand A7 came with a battery grip and after some initial experimentation it came off and has never been used again (anybody interested? ;) )

My A6000 feels a bit small but both the A7 and A7ii fit very comfortably in my hands and I would not be interested in anything bigger.

More proof that ergonomics are personal preference and not good/bad.
 

doug

Well-known member
But this presupposes that mirrorless has some big advantages over OVF .

For Pro usage the only advantage thats been proven is size and weight ....somewhat trivial if you are using the PRO lens like the Sony G or the Zeiss Batis .
Size and weight are secondary considerations for me. What I like about EVF cameras:

  • WYSIWYG exposure
  • ability to see and focus the image in dim lighting conditions
  • ability to use a huge variety of legacy lenses
  • zero discrepancy between the viewing image plane, focussing image plane and image recording plane, for example no AFMA, ever
  • magnified focussing in the viewfinder

but maybe I'm not Pro enough...
 

SrMphoto

Well-known member
IMHO XQD is a great technology but a dead end - nobody else using it. Rather the latest SD standards seem to become the future.
Sony, with their Cine Cinema video cameras, is also using XQD cards. We do not know what the future will bring, but for today's cameras using XQD seems like a significant advantage when compared to SD cards: much faster (buffer clearing and image download) and better handling in the field.
IMO, Compact Flash is the only format that is a dead end (though Canon seems to continue betting on them), both XQD and SD cards will continue to improve.
 

Frankly

New member
Sony, with their Cine Cinema video cameras, is also using XQD cards. We do not know what the future will bring, but for today's cameras using XQD seems like a significant advantage when compared to SD cards: much faster (buffer clearing and image download) and better handling in the field.
IMO, Compact Flash is the only format that is a dead end (though Canon seems to continue betting on them), both XQD and SD cards will continue to improve.
Agreed. What I don't see the point of is mixing XQD and SD in the same body. Seems like design by committee, $h!T or get off the pot.
 

SrMphoto

Well-known member
Agreed. What I don't see the point of is mixing XQD and SD in the same body. Seems like design by committee, $h!T or get off the pot.
It is especially a bummer if you use the second card as backup. Since I always use the second card only as emergency overflow (in case I forgot to format the card or change it), I am not that much bothered. I assume the reason for mixing XQD and SD is space, as SD-cards probably take significantly less space in the camera than XQDs. Or maybe it is cost saving?
 

Frankly

New member
It is especially a bummer if you use the second card as backup. Since I always use the second card only as emergency overflow (in case I forgot to format the card or change it), I am not that much bothered. I assume the reason for mixing XQD and SD is space, as SD-cards probably take significantly less space in the camera than XQDs. Or maybe it is cost saving?
Probably that XQDs are not widely available from more than one manufacturer... if Japan experienced another earthquake or Sony had a hissy fit then a dual XQD camera would become unusable so I guess I understand.

Sometimes I like to rant. A bit.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Size and weight are secondary considerations for me. What I like about EVF cameras:

  • WYSIWYG exposure
  • ability to see and focus the image in dim lighting conditions
  • ability to use a huge variety of legacy lenses
  • zero discrepancy between the viewing image plane, focussing image plane and image recording plane, for example no AFMA, ever
  • magnified focussing in the viewfinder

but maybe I'm not Pro enough...
Essentially the ability to SEE and FOCUS a manual lens accurately on a target that isn t moving . A magnified view is worse than useless if the subject moves . Its terrific if the subject isn t moving .

Agree on the ability to see and focus in dim lighting ...my error :facesmack:

At least we agree that the most important aspects of any system should be

1. Viewing

2. Focusing

Can t say that I have been concerned about auto exposure for a long time .

From what I know from following your work ...your are correct ..mirrorless is a good fit for your requirements .
 

Oren Grad

Active member
...What I like about EVF cameras:...

[*]zero discrepancy between the viewing image plane, focussing image plane and image recording plane, for example no AFMA, ever
This is not universally true. Mirrorless cameras that focus at open aperture are subject to the same problems as DSLRs with optical finders when one uses lenses that exhibit focus shift with stopping down. On the other hand, focusing at working aperture can bring its own problems with precision. Jim Kasson's summary of his A7RIII focus tests is eye-opening, so to speak, on these points:

https://blog.kasson.com/a7riii/sony-a7riii-autofocus-accuracy-summary/
 

pegelli

Well-known member
This is not universally true. Mirrorless cameras that focus at open aperture are subject to the same problems as DSLRs with optical finders when one uses lenses that exhibit focus shift with stopping down. On the other hand, focusing at working aperture can bring its own problems with precision. Jim Kasson's summary of his A7RIII focus tests is eye-opening, so to speak, on these points:

https://blog.kasson.com/a7riii/sony-a7riii-autofocus-accuracy-summary/
Thanks for the link Oren.

I left a comment there since my A7 and A7ii seem to work differently from what Jim is describing for the A7Riii, since my cameras (A7 and A7ii) focus stopped down in both AF-S and AF-C.

I wonder what choices Nikon will make in that regard, but that will take a few month before we know that.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
And all this bandwidth before a confirmed announcement from a reliable source?
Like Nikon, perhaps.

Interesting the discussion that awaits the announcement, when and if that happens.

Thanks for keeping me occupied, during my immobility ;)
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Some crazy stuff on this post ?
... Lets assume for most Getdpi members that IMAGE QUALITY suitable for a specific type of photography is a must. Nikon seems to be viewed by those that do not use Nikon s as WAY WAY behind Sony and others .
...
Sorry, just noticed this (at first I only read your rant below that) but are you really serious? Can you point to where this is said or even hinted at, especially when talking about Image Quality? Sometimes it feels good to play "victim" but this is the most crazy statement I've read in this whole thread. I think Nikon is rightfully shown behind Sony and others in mirrorless and I'm glad they're working to catch up, but I've seen very little chatter on GetDPI that denies Nikon making great cameras and glass that produce outstanding pictures, only problem is that a DSLR is not everybodies favourite camera these days.
 

Oren Grad

Active member
I left a comment there since my A7 and A7ii seem to work differently from what Jim is describing for the A7Riii, since my cameras (A7 and A7ii) focus stopped down in both AF-S and AF-C.
Yes, it seems that the behavior of Sony mirrorless AF is both very complex and continually changing with new models and with firmware updates. So it's very difficult for a reviewer, or a user, to fully and definitively understand it.

In fairness, Nikon AF, especially in the high-end models, is complex, too - so much so that Thom Hogan makes a living explaining it better through his guidebooks than Nikon does in its instruction manuals. But my impression is that its fundamental logic is a bit more consistent. OTOH, there are some situations where specific Sony features, like eye-detect AF or the ultra-high speed and uninterrupted view of the A9, offer real advantages.

Regardless of whether I end up wanting to buy one, I'm looking forward to seeing what engineering choices Nikon makes with its new models - I'm sure we'll learn something interesting from them.
 
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SrMphoto

Well-known member
More details appearing on Nikon Rumors:
- Top-LCD
- Tiltable rear LCD
- 400-500 focus points (Sony a7rIII has 425 CDAF, 399 PDAF points)
 

msadat

Member
here is a new idea for Nikon, since we know it takes time to roll out lenses and also they want to see how they market reacts for betting the bank on it, make it with the sony a7 mount, use the same lenses, then add more to the mix, same as the m4/3. the economy of the same mount on multiple camera brands is enroumous and wonderfull for all
 
V

Vivek

Guest
here is a new idea for Nikon, since we know it takes time to roll out lenses and also they want to see how they market reacts for betting the bank on it, make it with the sony a7 mount, use the same lenses, then add more to the mix, same as the m4/3. the economy of the same mount on multiple camera brands is enroumous and wonderfull for all

Unfortunately the “universal” mount (m42 screw) never took off ! :(
 
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