pegelli
Well-known member
Or surpassing, pls. tell me which Canon or Nikon DSLR can shoot 20 fps without a viewfinder blackout
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Nikon mirrorless ?
- Thread starter DougDolde
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Vivek
Guest
Or surpassing, pls. tell me which Canon or Nikon DSLR can shoot 20 fps without a viewfinder blackout
That is even with their clickety clack noise..
(the Sony A9 can do it silenty)
By listing all the ergonomics and other deficiencies of A7rIII I wanted to demonstrate how Sony left the door wide open for competition to enter the playfield. I really like Sony's 24-105 and 100-400 lenses, and Nikon's lens offerings or adaptation of other Nikon lenses will be crucial. Hope that Nikon's rumored 24-70/f4 will not be such a dud as Sony's.
D850 is in my experience the most versatile camera on the market. IMO, Nikon's new mirrorless camera can be complementary to D850 if it offers:
- Good EVF that makes it easier to MF, those Otus lenses become more interesting.
- IBIS that adds image stabilization to small, lightweight primes/zooms
- reduced size/weight with new lenses
D850 is in my experience the most versatile camera on the market. IMO, Nikon's new mirrorless camera can be complementary to D850 if it offers:
- Good EVF that makes it easier to MF, those Otus lenses become more interesting.
- IBIS that adds image stabilization to small, lightweight primes/zooms
- reduced size/weight with new lenses
pegelli
Well-known member
My point is that every camera (or brand) will have likes and dislikes by different users and that your (and my) dislikes are not necessarily "ergonomics and other deficiencies". Some of the things on your negative issues list are actually positives or likes for my use.
I actually think these differences are a good thing, since it gives consumers a choice to buy what fits them best.
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
And you need 20FPS ??? My D5 does what 11-12 FPS ..but the real advantage is it can actually focus track a moving subject . This is only important if you are really into Sports Photography ...but lets for example say you were shooting POLO behind the goal with a 400 or 600 ....DOF is about the width of the horses head max . Can you track it from 50 yards out thru the goal .Or surpassing, pls. tell me which Canon or Nikon DSLR can shoot 20 fps without a viewfinder blackout
I looked in detail at the A9 tests from introduction and the captures could not keep the subject in focus .
Requirements here are very specific ...ask any professional that shoots sports ....you do not submit a single frame that isn t completely sharp ...this is why Nikon and Canon have invested more than a decade to get the AF to this standard .
They also do not release a new D4/D4s/D5 etc without extensive field testing ...same for Canon .
Mirrorless has a place in the PRO kit but its primarily in situations where size and weight are critical .....not when you have 400mm lens attached . Mirrorless is getting much better and its possible to built terrific cameras ..but as they move to compete against the DSLR notice that they are getting larger .
Yes, I agree that it is good that cameras appeal to different people for different reasons, it would be boring otherwise. Sonys camera appeal to a large number of people, Sony must be doing something right.
I am curious which of the listed negatives you actually like? Maybe I was not clear ;-).
pegelli
Well-known member
You were perfectly clear, a few examples:
- Menu's, I hardly use them (99% of the time my custom buttons and Fn menu do the trick) but when I do have to go in the menu I find everything easily and quickly.
- incognito buttons C1/2/3/4 are good for me, allows me to set up different Sony camera's (I currently use an A6000, A7 and A7ii) in the same way according to how I want it.
(for instance I go to the same button for focus magnification with manual lenses on all three cameras)
- fake low iso's are clearly enough marked for me (line above and below) and are nice to achieve longer shutter speeds in good light (and I've used them that way)
I agree you need to use them with care (lower DR/risk of blowing highlights), but when you know what you are doing they work fine.
There's more, but since this thread is about Nikon mirrorless let's not stroll further off-topic
Frankly
New member
This has been my experience with Nikon and I assume Canon as well. Even for street level use I find my pedestrian D700-800-810 bodies and the better lenses do auto-focus tracking amazingly well - think dogs or children playing.
Prior to actually figuring out how their auto-focus systems work, I was one of those snotty purists who treated AF as an exercise in focus and recompose... in which case any decent camera will work. But something like the D810 with my 105/1.4e actually can tracking running dogs and kids 10-20 feet away even when they cross objects in-between camera and subject.
The main reason I'd want a mirrorless Nikon is to have the smaller Leica-like street camera for travel and casual use, accepting a loss of AF performance and action shooting capability but otherwise hoping for D850 image quality.
It's not that the D800 bodies are that large but the best lenses to use with these cameras are invariably bulky and large. That's why I whine about simply introducing some f/2.8 pancakes, those would make the D8xx series quite travel friendly.
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Thank you for the answers. I wondered what negative is actually a positive for you (as you wrote). While I can understand that some like full button customization (C1/C2/C3), I still believe that is a problem if you change cameras (as I wrote originally, and by change I meant changing manufacturers).You were perfectly clear, a few examples:
- Menu's, I hardly use them (99% of the time my custom buttons and Fn menu do the trick) but when I do have to go in the menu I find everything easily and quickly.
- incognito buttons C1/2/3/4 are good for me, allows me to set up different Sony camera's (I currently use an A6000, A7 and A7ii) in the same way according to how I want it.
(for instance, I go to the same button for focus magnification with manual lenses on all three cameras)
- fake low iso's are clearly enough marked for me (line above and below) and are nice to achieve longer shutter speeds in good light (and I've used them that way)
I agree you need to use them with care (lower DR/risk of blowing highlights), but when you know what you are doing they work fine.
There's more, but since this thread is about Nikon mirrorless let's not stroll further off-topic
Thank you for pointing me to clear distinctions of 'fake' ISOs (lines)! I did not object to their presence as I also find them useful when I do not have an ND filter at hand.
Back on topic:
I really hope all mirrorless Nikons will have no AA filter.
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
Nikon's new mirrorless will most probably be one of the most advanced on the market from day one, and judging from history, ergonomics will be great.
- Nikon makes the most advanced full frame DSLR on the market, the D850.
- Nikon makes the most advanced crop sensor DSLR on the market, the D500.
- Nikon made one of the most advanced mirrorless cameras for its time, although a commercial failure, the V3.
- Nikon is, as far as I know, still the second largest manufacturer of cameras with interchangeable lenses, after Canon and before Sony.
Any assumption that they won't include all their knowledge and all available technology in their new mirrorless camera is absurd. They'll do absolutely everything in their power to dominate this market, as they have done in the DSLR market together with Canon in the past.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
While i agree to most of what you state and I would really love that Nikon can pull out the "kill every other camera vendor" mirrorless beast, they miss several important things for this. Among those but most importantly are sensors for mirrorless and an extensive lineup of native designed mirrorless lenses - a pure adapter will not do the thing I fear.
They sure have the knowledge in many areas and also learned very much from their excursions into mirrorless with the Nikon 1 system but they still have to bring all that to the road - also financially. This is why I am very sceptical, but hey, I would love to learn different :thumbs:
pegelli
Well-known member
Other photographers and tests have very different experiences with the A9 re. focus tracking, but that's beside point, mirrorless has certain advantages but if you don't need them that's fine. DSLR's have different advantages. Horses for courses. I only objected to your initial statement which is they were only playing catch-up to DSLR's, which is very far from reality.
pegelli
Well-known member
But then it's a dislike for some shooters, not a general ergonomics issue. Every camera brand has different buttons you need to learn what they do.
You said in your original post "should not be used", but for some (even including you) they are used.
If the rumors are right, Nikon's mirrorless will be using XQD cards. IMO, this is a big thing, as they will be the first mirrorless to use XQD, right? I care less if a camera shoots 8fps or 12 fps than how long I can shoot at high fps (that was quite frustrating with D810). XQD cards are much faster than SD cards, i.e., the camera will be able to clear the buffer much quicker. Hopefully, the internal buffer will be large enough.
I was right: I was not clear
.What I meant is that 'fake' ISO-s should be marked so that you use them only when you know what you are doing and not select them accidentally. As you know, for the best dynamic range you use the lowest ISO, unless it is 'fake'. Hence the importance of marking the 'fake' ISOs clearly (underlined, Lo.x, ....).
Even though I do not see it that way, I agree that button customization can be seen as an advantage.
pegelli
Well-known member
We'll see, I assume the cameras will be good but I seriously wonder if they can catch up 5 years in one go. Obviously they'll do everything to try and dominate the market (like they tried with the DL, 1 series and V3) but that doesn't mean they will be successful :grin:.
I do hope it's a good camera and that they are successful, sound competition in the FF mirrorless segment is good for everybody. :thumbup:
ptomsu
Workshop Member
IMHO XQD is a great technology but a dead end - nobody else using it. Rather the latest SD standards seem to become the future.
Jorgen Udvang
Subscriber Member
Don't believe for a second that Nikon hasn't made dozens of working prototypes the last few years. The problems with the "1" series I believe were three:
- The V1, which was too limited and destroyed their reputation in one go.
- The sensor size.
- Most people don't really want cameras that are that small, at least not at the advanced level. There's a reason why there is no Pana GM6.
I had a chat with my local dealer this morning, and we agreed that the first full frame model from Nikon will probably be a very high end one, possibly more expensive than the A9. And why should they limit themselves to 35mm? They can do what Fuji has done very successfully, launch a medium format high end model and sell DX to those who can't afford it. Fuji is extremely successful in Asia with this concept, and Asia is the biggest market for mirrorless. That way, they could leav Canon and Sony to compete in the FX market, which will undoubtedly will be a cut-throat affair.