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Nikon mirrorless ?

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Looks interesting to me...I'm excited to see what they come out with.

If they were also able to deliver one or more native f/0.9 lenses that would certainly have my attention.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
Interesting and good for competition

However this one made me smile:

Similar body size to the Sony a7 camera but with better ergonomics and a better grip.
Ergonomics are very personal and personally I never liked the feel of most Nikon cameras (their DSLR line), allthough from a performance point of view I would have liked to own one it's always been the ergonomics that stopped me.
 

SrMphoto

Well-known member
Interesting and good for competition

However this one made me smile:



Ergonomics are very personal and personally I never liked the feel of most Nikon cameras (their DSLR line), although from a performance point of view I would have liked to own one it's always been the ergonomics that stopped me.
I agree that ergonomics are personal, but Sony has some ergonomics fails that are quite clear (my list compiled from months of a7rIII use) :
- Convoluted menus; quite improved with the latest cameras (A7rIII vs A7RII) but still illogical and hard to use.
- Slow operation; there is a delay when e.g., changing aperture, slow to wake up from sleep.
- Missing top LCD
- 'Incognito' buttons, labeled C1, C2, C3; once you have used a different camera for a while, no way to remember what was assigned to each of them.
- ISO and drive mode too easy to accidentally change as the camera presses against the body
- Complicated dual card management.
- Fake low ISOs (should not be used) not clearly marked.
- Slow card format


Sony A7 has left the door wide open for a full frame competitor as it continues to have IMO following design failures:
- 'Obfuscated' autofocus (apparently AF-C possible only at working aperture, AF-S combination of PDAF and CDAF)
- No AASD (auto aperture stop down) in MF mode.
- No lossless compressed RAW files
- No focus bracketing, no multiple exposures
- Impossible update mechanism/software on Mac OS X


However, a system's quality depends a lot on the availability of high-quality lenses, and Sony has them. It will take a while to catch up, and it may also lead to a neglect of lens development for DSLRs :-(.
 

rayyan

Well-known member
Interesting but not interested, at this time.
Another mount. Another adapter.

I will wait for the next iteration. Nikon was never known for ‘ Kaizen ‘.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I moved away from Nikon some years ago - both FF and APSC - and actually do not miss it so far. I also believe that whatever mirrorless they bring will need some iterations and time - especially AF as well as native lens lineup - so I will also stay away from the first iterations (years).

Also I became a quite happy camper in m43 Olympus PRO land and expect the next Olympus models (EM1.3) as well as Fuji models (X-T3 and X-H2) to finally leave all child sickness behind them and it will then be hard to beat these systems, especially by a newcomer in mirrorless like Nikon.

Will probably take 4 to 6 years before Nikon mirrorless will become a real competition, especially when thinking about the slow innovation and product cycles of Nikon throughout the last years.
 

DougDolde

Well-known member
Will probably take 4 to 6 years before Nikon mirrorless will become a real competition, especially when thinking about the slow innovation and product cycles of Nikon throughout the last years.
That's riduculous !
 

bab

Active member
From current rumors Nikon looks like they on a very progressive path, one can only hope the next system introductions are complete at higher level than the competition's regarding ease of use.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Some crazy stuff on this post ?

Each photographer weighs a subjective set of criteria ..in evaluating alternatives camera systems . Lets assume for most Getdpi members that IMAGE QUALITY suitable for a specific type of photography is a must . Nikon seems to be viewed by those that do not use Nikon s as WAY WAY behind Sony and others . They have clearly dropped the ball ?:bugeyes:

Where has Nikon dropped the ball on IMAGE QUALITY ...seems like the D850 at 46MPS is as good as it gets in a FF .

Where has Nikon dropped the ball on AUTO FOCUS ...the 51PT Nikon AF system is the BEST . Nice to see all the excuses about Follow Focus on mirrorless .

Where has Nikon dropped the ball on cost ......D850 under $4K ....D750 around $2K . Yes a D5 is expensive and if you had one you would know why ?

Where has Nikon dropped the ball on Lens ....get serious ....full set of premium primes (1.4) 24/28/35/50/58/85/105 .
full set of class leading zooms , full set of less expensive 1.8 lenses , world class telephotos . Big news Sony has a great 400/2.8 AF for $12K . (not smaller, not better than Nikon or Canon ).

Where has Nikon dropped the ball in responsiveness...again seriously your other camera is not faster than the Nikon alternative and don t compare it to a D5 (should you need the fastest ). Never even heard about shutter lag or blacked out viewfinders until mirrorless .

Where has Nikon dropped the ball on features and usability ...menu logic used is consistent and once familiar lasts thru multiple generations of gear . Tons of books and videos to help you tune the system to your subject matter .

Where has Nikon dropped the ball on service and warranty ....not perfect but they have a proven Pro service you can bet your job on . This isn t new to them .


So where exactly have they missed the ball .....SIZE/WEIGHT ... Yes ...even though I find a Nikon Df pretty darn small and light especially with the 1.8 lenses ....Mirrorless can be Leica M small and thats darn important .

SWISS ARMY KNIFE FLEXIBILITY ....yes most mirrorless systems will let you adapt almost anything to the system . Much much harder to adapt to the Nikon F mount .

EVF .....NO (for Me)....Helps in focusing manual focus lenses on subjects that are not moving ......Hurts in your ability to really see the subject (as in watching expressions ). Other than the Leica SL ..I haven t seen an EVF that holds a candle to an OVF for really seeing your subject .

Nikon clearly can build a competitive mirrorless camera ....only three areas to question....
1. EVF .....must be high resolution ...rumor is 3.6 ...maybe ?

2. Responsiveness ...shutter lag ,viewfinder black out must be minimal .

3. AF ...better be as good as a D750 .

Those are the three areas that have taken the other manf multiple iterations .

I am also worried that they may not build the bodies to PRO requirements ...its hard to have rugged build quality and water resistance in a consumer priced body .

:banghead:
 

JohnBrew

Active member
I have no idea what the Nikon mirrorless will be like or when it will be available. But before jumping on the bandwagon I will wait for a few reviews and tests and I will seevwhat I think.
I WANT the Nikon to be a gigantic success. I want a home run out of the park. I want something that will blow everything else into the weeds. Time will tell. We certainly don't need an X1D-type introduction experience. It has to be RIGHT straight outta da box. I'm willing to wait...
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
The Nikon rumor illustrations look to me much like a downsized, slimmed down Leica Digilux 3/Panasonic L1 but with a full frame sensor. That's rather attractive to me.

I'm not in the market at all, however. Anything I buy at this point has to be fully compatible with my existing Leica M and R lenses, and accessories. That pretty much locks me to a Leica SL, TL2, or CL body for an EVF camera.

G
 

Frankly

New member
Nikon only fails with marketing and some very simple but stubborn software myopia and incompetence. Everything works but if they hired better UI developers they could be superb. But they’ll go out of business rather than change their culture.

The hardware is great, a few quibbles over buttons here and there but if your a right-handed male with medium to large hands you’re good to go. The neglect of Lefties is a real missed opportunity and challenge for all the manufacturers.

The feeling of their DSLRs being too big could be dismissed if they would only release a few small pancake primes. Not holding my breath.

While I wouldn’t want to buy the very first batch, I would be a likely customer for their full-frame mirrorless with a fast 35/1.4 at $3000 and still a probable customer at $4500. My instinct is that a 7/10 effort by Nikon will net a more usable camera than either Sony or Leica. Canon remains a mystery and I won’t use a tiny m4/3s (because I like edit my files and have some headroom).

I don’t trust Nikon Rumors and I would add 18 months to any timeframe before we see user cameras. And figure three months more to be sure quality control has the bugs squashed. My daughter just finished 9th grade so perhaps by her graduation?

Finally if their design is any good then Sony will throttle sensor delivery. Nikon survives at Sony’s whim and mainly as a thorn in Canon’s side. Good thing these guys hung up their swords.
 
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pegelli

Well-known member
I agree that ergonomics are personal, but Sony has some ergonomics fails that are quite clear (my list compiled from months of a7rIII use) :
- Convoluted menus; quite improved with the latest cameras (A7rIII vs A7RII) but still illogical and hard to use.
- Slow operation; there is a delay when e.g., changing aperture, slow to wake up from sleep.
- Missing top LCD
- 'Incognito' buttons, labeled C1, C2, C3; once you have used a different camera for a while, no way to remember what was assigned to each of them.
- ISO and drive mode too easy to accidentally change as the camera presses against the body
- Complicated dual card management.
- Fake low ISOs (should not be used) not clearly marked.
- Slow card format


Sony A7 has left the door wide open for a full frame competitor as it continues to have IMO following design failures:
- 'Obfuscated' autofocus (apparently AF-C possible only at working aperture, AF-S combination of PDAF and CDAF)
- No AASD (auto aperture stop down) in MF mode.
- No lossless compressed RAW files
- No focus bracketing, no multiple exposures
- Impossible update mechanism/software on Mac OS X


However, a system's quality depends a lot on the availability of high-quality lenses, and Sony has them. It will take a while to catch up, and it may also lead to a neglect of lens development for DSLRs :-(.
Wow, one negative comment on how a Nikon DSLR feels in my hands resulted in this watershed of negativity on another brand. Seems I hit a nerve there, sorry for that ;)

I actually think it's funny when a personal list of problems with a camera are presented as universal ergonomics flaws or fundamental design errors.
First, all the things on your list don't bother me or I don't experience the problem (apparently I handle and use the camera differently from you) or are even positives for the way I use it. Secondly they are hardly important when a camera feels like a dog in your hands, which is a personal thing but very consistent when I pick up a Nikon in a store or get to use one at a photography gathering where where we exchange cameras and lenses to see how they feel and behave.

My only point was that ergonomics are very personal and that "better ergonomics" in the announcement of a product that hasn't been released yet is pure marketing hogwash which is in my mind only put there to mask the fact they have ~5 years of catch-up to do. Hopefully they have looked at competition (not only Sony, but also Fuji, Olympus and Panasonic) closely enough to do that a little faster, and looking at the body shape it's so different from their DSLR's that I'm looking forward to how it feels in my hands, we'll see.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
WRT body shape due to Nikon rumours - I am pretty sure that the body shown is a pure photoshop exercise - hence the similarity to Leica RF (or what else) --- should be far different from the real product - hopefully as another retro style camera is the last I really want and need!
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Any credible competition to Sony is always welcome! :clap:

I look forward to it so that Sony will improve its offerings even more! :chug:

Unlike Nikon, I find Sony honest in admitting its mistakes and trying to remedy that quickly.

Nikon have a long track record of denial while touting they are the “best” and they have lost the confidence of quite a few.
 

Thorkil

Well-known member
Nikon has always been working extremely well for me, so good that I in a long period thought it was booring. Now my booring feeling is long gone, and I just feel satiesfied (well it sounds booring - but it aint) and when I use it I fell calm and sure of the pictures are good and working. I dont have to check all the time as with my X-T2. Leica M6 gave me the same feeling but time has gone.
A Nikon mirrorless for me thanks, a 24mm and a 0,9 NOCT, thats it, and my Df and X-T2 for all the other things - and only 24Mp - if I think I can afford it, else I stay by the other two.
thorkil
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
Nikon is most certainly behind the curve with mirrorless in a pro form, but nonetheless, it will be exciting to try this camera as long as it's built in Japan. I've learned to not be a beta tester no matter how much gas I get.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
WRT body shape due to Nikon rumours - I am pretty sure that the body shown is a pure photoshop exercise - hence the similarity to Leica RF (or what else) --- should be far different from the real product - hopefully as another retro style camera is the last I really want and need!
Actually, I'd seen another link, sorry! ... The body illustration imagined in the link above looks more like a Nikon F3 to me. Of course, it's just a rumor as yet. Like the rumored "Leica CM" that was the subject of so much discussion recently, it remains a fantasy until Nikon actually issues an official press release. :D

I owned and used Nikon cameras from 1969 to 2001, and had another fling with them in 2015. They always worked well for me, but the body designs after they went to AF never really gelled for me. The FM/FE series and the F3 were my favorites. I had a Nikon S rangefinder to use for a short time way back in 1970 and it was a sweet camera too, sort of a nicer Contax in feel to me. If they do something that is akin to the FM/FE/F3 or even that S RF camera, it would be pleasing to my hands and traditional Nikon aesthetics.

But my previous comment still remains: I've got my lens kit and accessories already, I'm going to stick with it. I've put the Leica SL up for sale due to lack of use, the M-D is my baby and I'll get a CL body for the close-up/macro/long tele capabilities. That's enough. :)
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Nikon is most certainly behind the curve with mirrorless in a pro form, but nonetheless, it will be exciting to try this camera as long as it's built in Japan. I've learned to not be a beta tester no matter how much gas I get.
But this presupposes that mirrorless has some big advantages over OVF .

For Pro usage the only advantage thats been proven is size and weight ....somewhat trivial if you are using the PRO lens like the Sony G or the Zeiss Batis .

Performance isn t better and normally isn t as good as the Nikon or Canon OVF systems .

It is not cheaper or a better value .

All of the many iterations of the sony,fuji and panasonic bodies have been catch up to the standards of the Nikon and Canon DSLR . :facesmack:
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Actually, I'd seen another link, sorry! ... The body illustration imagined in the link above looks more like a Nikon F3 to me. Of course, it's just a rumor as yet. Like the rumored "Leica CM" that was the subject of so much discussion recently, it remains a fantasy until Nikon actually issues an official press release. :D

I owned and used Nikon cameras from 1969 to 2001, and had another fling with them in 2015. They always worked well for me, but the body designs after they went to AF never really gelled for me. The FM/FE series and the F3 were my favorites. I had a Nikon S rangefinder to use for a short time way back in 1970 and it was a sweet camera too, sort of a nicer Contax in feel to me. If they do something that is akin to the FM/FE/F3 or even that S RF camera, it would be pleasing to my hands and traditional Nikon aesthetics.

But my previous comment still remains: I've got my lens kit and accessories already, I'm going to stick with it. I've put the Leica SL up for sale due to lack of use, the M-D is my baby and I'll get a CL body for the close-up/macro/long tele capabilities. That's enough. :)
Godfrey I know - there are both picture variants of the upcoming Nikon mirrorless around - SLR-like (F3/FM) which I would prefer to the second variant - a kind of RF style body like Leica M or similar. I do hope that they include great grip and buttons - as we are used to by Nikon for long time. Actually I find the X-H1 body design very good and very handy - for me ....

i think you cannot go wrong with your current lineup from Leica. As I am not invested in any digital Leica bodies currently and their prices go rather north than south with every release I most likely will not get back into the Leica ecosystem anytime - never say never again.

Thus I have an eye on the upcoming Nikon FF mirrorless and after the first hype and tests are gone I will try one - I want a FF mirrorless for vintage FF lenses I own and I tried the Sony's (A7RIII, A9) and even their bigger bodies were simply too small and ergonomically far from perfect for me. This is the reason I am hoping for the upcoming Nikon - but well it could also be a FF mirrorless Canon - I am totally brand agnostic in that regard.
 
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