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Thread: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Just sharing, for anyone interested. Don't shoot me for my methodology, there was none.

    I chose a high frequency patch of woodland across a well-known valley to do a real world (and my real world may differ from yours) 'dirty' comparison between the X1D and the Z7.

    'Dirty' means that they were shot as I would generally shoot them if being opportunistic rather than planned. Were I being planned, I'd likely have the Phase setup on a proper tripod.

    As I would generally shoot them = no tripod, base ISO as minimum but set to Auto ISO, autofocus, and no attempt at being rigorous, though of course that doesn't;t mean I wasn't paying attention.

    These are RAW files, as follows:

    Z7 with 24-70 kit zoom at 24mm F8
    Z7 with 24-70 kit zoom at 70mm F8

    X1D with 30mm XCD lens at F8
    X1D with 90mm XCD lens at F8

    In other words, very similar fields of view on both cameras and at both focal lengths.

    Don't forget: the files sizes on the long side differ between the two cameras by just 16 pixels: most of the extra MP of the X1D go into the extra height of the file. So if you like to shoot 2:3 then they are essentially the same MP but if you like to shoot 4:3 then you'll have to crop the Z7 file and that would make it 879 pixels less wide, giving you a print around 4.9" less wide if you print at 180 DPI.

    Process and sharpen to taste. I've been looking on them on a 148 PPI monitor. It has been very instructive....

    https://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/g5...8keslwW26lFJ0=

    https://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/g2...dcApSTygFaHQw=

    https://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/g1...a-cQ7TOJZefVk=

    https://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/g2...QSne7VvptQqYg=
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Am I missing something here . Doesn t the pixel size and depth have an impact here . The X1D has 5.3 microns with 16bit color and the Nikon has 4.35 microns with 14 bit color .
    Roger Dunham
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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Thanks, Tim! As you said, very instructive.

    Roger, I don't see any judgements here, just four sample pics.

    --Matt
    mattgraysonphoto.com
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Am I missing something here . Doesn t the pixel size and depth have an impact here . The X1D has 5.3 microns with 16bit color and the Nikon has 4.35 microns with 14 bit color .
    I think you might be....

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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    The Nikon obviously has less resolution and smaller pixels, but marginal differences in quality. This speaks nicely for the Z. The X1D now sells almost 30% off from original retail, so given the small differences in quality, I'd take the Z and buy a lens or two.
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    Workshop Member glenerrolrd's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Thanks, Tim! As you said, very instructive.

    Roger, I don't see any judgements here, just four sample pics.

    --Matt
    did not mean to imply any ...Tim however states that when cropped to 2 x3 the number of Mp are not all that different . I don think you can use MP too compare sensor performance across different physical sizes ..so for example a 24 mp app-c is not compatible to a 24MP ff .

    I think you will see this at every stage ..the 100MP used on the HB is much different than the 100MP used on the newest Fuji .

    the number of pixels is of course important to the ability to render fine detail ....however the size and quality of the pixels contribute to dynamic range ,tone separation and color fidelity .

    DxO Labs used to do a great job of showing these differences but they have since seem to reduced the amount of information being shared .

    Tim thank you for starting this discussion.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    did not mean to imply any ...Tim however states that when cropped to 2 x3 the number of Mp are not all that different . I don think you can use MP too compare sensor performance across different physical sizes ..so for example a 24 mp app-c is not compatible to a 24MP ff .

    I think you will see this at every stage ..the 100MP used on the HB is much different than the 100MP used on the newest Fuji .

    the number of pixels is of course important to the ability to render fine detail ....however the size and quality of the pixels contribute to dynamic range ,tone separation and color fidelity .

    DxO Labs used to do a great job of showing these differences but they have since seem to reduced the amount of information being shared .

    Tim thank you for starting this discussion.
    Technically and theoretically you're right of course - but over the years I've had to learn to trust my eyes more than anything and for me, given that my final intent for a good image is to print it, I've got fairly good at knowing what actually does give good results versus what theoretically should. SO comparing these two files side by side on a monitor I know really really well (and crucially, one that at 148 ppi has far lower resolution than the current retina/5k craze) I can quickly get a pretty accurate view of how things will look in print. So if my question was, will a file from the Nikon with the kit lens look, at, say a 36" wide print size, as good as a file from the Hassy with the relevant lens to everyone apart from the most extremely experienced, I now have an answer....
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Technically and theoretically you're right of course - but over the years I've had to learn to trust my eyes more than anything and for me, given that my final intent for a good image is to print it, I've got fairly good at knowing what actually does give good results versus what theoretically should. SO comparing these two files side by side on a monitor I know really really well (and crucially, one that at 148 ppi has far lower resolution than the current retina/5k craze) I can quickly get a pretty accurate view of how things will look in print. So if my question was, will a file from the Nikon with the kit lens look, at, say a 36" wide print size, as good as a file from the Hassy with the relevant lens to everyone apart from the most extremely experienced, I now have an answer....
    Do you mind to share your answer?

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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Do you mind to share your answer?
    Yes, please do. I wouldnít be able to answer the question and would like to hear from someone who can!

    Kirk

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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Tim, donít be coy - out with it!

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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    The Nikon zoom has 14 elements in 11 groups, the XCD 30mm and 90mm prime lenses have 11/10 and 10/8 respectively. Would the number of elements in the Nikon "kit" lens degrade the resolution to an extent? Shooting at 2:3, I'd take the Z hands down. Plus, 2/3rd's of a stop at base ISO doesn't mean much in resolution and the Z is a current camera that's considerably faster too.

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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Seems like optimal resolution and lack of distortion have little to do with number of elements or groups ... the Zeiss Otus 28 ... has 16 elements in 13 groups ... and
    would rival most lenses on the market.

    One of my favorite designs is the Tessar ... usually 4 elements in three groups ... marginal sharpness at the edges and a fair amount of distortion .... which is one of its
    endearing characteristics.
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    I think a better comparison would have been with the Nikon Z 50mm 1.8s as opposed to a zoom. The 50mm 1.8S is one of the best lenses i've ever used. In terms of absolute resolution, it's been compared to the Otus 1.4.

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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    I agree however sounded like Tim was happy with the results from the zoom. I use it 70%
    of the time that I am shooting video ... in spite of having classic Nikon, Leica R and M lenses
    which adapt.

    But overall zooms are a bit of a compromise ... some times worth making.

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    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    I shot them too, don't shoot me...

    From the D100 through the D810 I shot Nikon DSLRs. I loved 'em. For the last couple of years I've shot the X1D. I recently bought a Z7 and the kit zoom to see if I could use it as a backup to the Hasselblad. The Z7 performed as promised but the 24-70mm f/4 S zoom was a disappointment. I hesitate to jump in here, especially with a comparison that will probably be instantly flamed, but here is a corner comparison (X1D on the left, Z7 on the right) of the XCD 30mm and the 24-70mm f/4 S, both shot at f/8, 24mm equiv., base ISO, AWB, hand held. Yes, it's a 200% view using the LR Library module Compare View (with no processing having been done to either image). Yes, they were shot on different days under different lighting. Yes, 200% is extreme. But I'm obsessed with corner sharpness and wanted to make my own assessment. The Nikon 24-70mm S just didn't compare well to the XCD 30mm. I returned the kit. As they say, YMMV.

    I expect the upcoming 24-70mm f/2.8 S to be a measurably better lens and may try the Z7 once again when the new zoom is in retail stores.

    Joe
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Not jumping on ... but the XCD 30 is stellar ... and you may have had a better comparison with the S 35.

    I guess one needs to decide if the Z 7 sensor is close enough to the X1D. Resolution and colors ... yes. For me
    the DR is not close ... but that I can work with in post processing ...

    I was going to rant on the lack of communication from HB ... loss of Ming Thein ... no upgrade path delineated.

    But that would probably be off the OP topic.

    Loved the 4116 ...

    However the Z 7 with adapted lenses ... and primes is good enough. And looks like Nikon is striving to improve
    it with FW updates ... and they have a plan which they have shared.

    Nikon has in the past been somewhat insular ... opening up with this generation of cameras and that is a major
    factor in favor of this camera.

    Honestly I think this Z 7 does not challenge MF cameras ... but it does not need to ... if you need 50/100MP then call
    you Phase One dealer. But if you want a fast ... silent ... light ... camera with decent becoming awesome video rig ...
    the Z 7 has it nailed. Yes yes the Z 6 is better for video ... perhaps ... AA filter ... poor AF in log ... which is not a problem
    with the Z 7 ... at least mine does not suffer from this ...

    I have avoided all the discussion about the camera because most of it centered around FF versus mirrorless ... a non-issue for
    me.

    My X1D is gone ... my Z 7 very much alive ... but I am not printing large and am a bit more video-centric at this point.

    Good discussion ... thank Tim and all who have contributed ... but my thought is focus on the sensor and the haptics and future
    path ... lenses can be adapted to both.
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    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Not jumping on ... but the XCD 30 is stellar ... and you may have had a better comparison with the S 35.
    Agreed. I wanted the 24-70mm f/4 S to be better than it turned out to be (for me). I expect the 24-70mm f/2.8 S to be better and possibly equal the performance of the XCD 30mm.

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    I guess one needs to decide if the Z 7 sensor is close enough to the X1D. Resolution and colors ... yes. For me
    the DR is not close ... but that I can work with in post processing ...
    I agree wrt resolution and colors. And the Z7 DR is close enough, within a half stop of the X1D at base ISO.



    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    I was going to rant on the lack of communication from HB ... loss of Ming Thein ... no upgrade path delineated.
    Agreed. Don't get me started. Hasselblad's opacity and "radio silence" towards their customer base has been downright disrespectful. I'm hanging on and get an occasional pep talk from Howard Cubell.

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Loved the 4116 ...
    Me too. And I'd hate to part with it. But the clock is ticking. With cameras like the Z7 already here, and the Panasonic S1R on the horizon, Hasselblad may find itself in deep doo-doo.

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    However the Z 7 with adapted lenses ... and primes is good enough. And looks like Nikon is striving to improve
    it with FW updates ... and they have a plan which they have shared.

    Nikon has in the past been somewhat insular ... opening up with this generation of cameras and that is a major
    factor in favor of this camera.

    Honestly I think this Z 7 does not challenge MF cameras ... but it does not need to ... if you need 50/100MP then call
    you Phase One dealer. But if you want a fast ... silent ... light ... camera with decent becoming awesome video rig ...
    the Z 7 has it nailed. Yes yes the Z 6 is better for video ... perhaps ... AA filter ... poor AF in log ... which is not a problem
    with the Z 7 ... at least mine does not suffer from this ...

    I have avoided all the discussion about the camera because most of it centered around FF versus mirrorless ... a non-issue for
    me.

    My X1D is gone ... my Z 7 very much alive ... but I am not printing large and am a bit more video-centric at this point.

    Good discussion ... thank Tim and all who have contributed ... but my thought is focus on the sensor and the haptics and future
    path ... lenses can be adapted to both.
    Excellent summary. My needs are a bit different, but we may end up at the same place. I'm not into video and I like to print large (up to 30x40"). I truly believe, as Tim was perhaps leading us to conclude, that today's mirrorless full-frame 35mm cameras are capable of producing images that are close enough to those produced by crop-sensor (44x33mm) mirrorless medium format cameras for all practical purposes (large prints, Web publishing, Web posting, etc.). Tim's post was the impetus for my trying the Z7 and I was impressed with the platform. If the native lenses deliver the goods, I'll be back. Thanks Tim.

    Joe
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    I keep checking the Nikon forums for feedback on the Z7 as it is in my crosshairs. I will/would never purchase the cheap zoom that they offer. There is no way it could ever approach my standards and I'm still leary of all zooms but they seem to be getting much better.

    The big issue I have is I already have the 50s so the Z7 would have to be a significantly smaller/more convenient alternative. I have no doubts as to its ability to create a great file with enough pixels for me to work with for the size prints I'm used to printing. I keep checking weights and overall size and so far just haven't come up with enough of an advantage for the Z over a 50s..... but I'm still very tempted.

    And...... I'm always looking around the corner for the next sensor. 60MP would be the real trigger for me so I have the luxury of waiting and using what I have which is really nice stuff.

    Lots of good feedback in this forum.......

    Victor

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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I keep checking the Nikon forums for feedback on the Z7 as it is in my crosshairs. I will/would never purchase the cheap zoom that they offer. There is no way it could ever approach my standards and I'm still leary of all zooms but they seem to be getting much better.
    You mean the $1000 Nikon 24-70mmf/4 S?
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Yes I do...... I probably shouldn't have used 'cheap' in my post but that lens got a lot of poor reviews and, to me, a quality zoom lens in that price range would be an aberration. No matter what the camera is a throw away, the lenses should be purchased to keep for a long time. There are some extremely high quality lenses that can be used with the Z7. My Otus would work well......

    Victor

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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    The kit lens, 24-70 is a bit of a sleeper. Tack sharp, and overall a great companion to the Z7. I was very pleasantly surprised by the details.

    I did not look at the images comparing the Z7 and X1D, however based on the results I have seen from the Z7 and kit 24-70, I would easily put it up against the results from the 50S Fuji and 32-64. If there is anything lacking in details, Topaz AI sharpen can pull it back.

    Size/weight of the Z7 is what made me move that direction as it's now replaced my Fuji X-H1 in the back when I carry a P1 system, (as a backup and just overall easy to use camera.

    Paul C
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    The kit lens, 24-70 is a bit of a sleeper. Tack sharp, and overall a great companion to the Z7. I was very pleasantly surprised by the details.

    I did not look at the images comparing the Z7 and X1D, however based on the results I have seen from the Z7 and kit 24-70, I would easily put it up against the results from the 50S Fuji and 32-64. If there is anything lacking in details, Topaz AI sharpen can pull it back.

    Size/weight of the Z7 is what made me move that direction as it's now replaced my Fuji X-H1 in the back when I carry a P1 system, (as a backup and just overall easy to use camera.

    Paul C
    Paul,

    While I wanted to agree with you regarding the kit lens, after testing the Nikon 24-70mm f/4 S against the Fuji GF 32-64mm the Nikon showed weakness in the corners. No amount of sharpening is going to fix that. See the comparison here. I agree with you wrt the Z7 camera body however.

    Joe
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    Paul,

    While I wanted to agree with you regarding the kit lens, after testing the Nikon 24-70mm f/4 S against the Fuji GF 32-64mm the Nikon showed weakness in the corners. No amount of sharpening is going to fix that. See the comparison here. I agree with you wrt the Z7 camera body however.

    Joe
    Joe,

    Never underestimate sample variance. What keeps me in MF is in large part the QC of the lenses. I hate playing the "buy three to get one good one" game. You never know if there might not be an even better copy somewhere else...

    Until LensRentals does a batch review of a dozen copies of a lens, you can't really judge it.

    Matt
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    Paul,

    While I wanted to agree with you regarding the kit lens, after testing the Nikon 24-70mm f/4 S against the Fuji GF 32-64mm the Nikon showed weakness in the corners. No amount of sharpening is going to fix that. See the comparison here. I agree with you wrt the Z7 camera body however.

    Joe
    Thanks Joe,

    I need to do some more shooting at some distances. I will look at the corners a bit more.

    Paul C
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Most eyes especially older ones donít see color as young eyes do, we can argue over fine detail but not color.

    So if ones cameras files have the same detail as another and your of the opinions that it better benefits you and your style congrats your done searching.
    Now buy two bodies and a bunch of glass and go shoot a 100,000 frames and then find a few to print.

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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Z7 with the 24-70/4S in Stockholm, iso 64 1/60, handheld (IBIS and electronic first curtain on) - only modest sharpening and modest classic clarity done - nothing else done
    First the JPG which will be auto-corrected for concave distortion in C1
    Second the NEF which have heavy concave distortion which C1 don't correct, and cant be done manual in C1 while the distortion correction seems to only cope with convex/barrel distortion (am I missing something in C1?)
    But at f4 and at 64mm one can't in fairness compare the center and corner, while even the front of the lamp and the corners get out of the narrow DOF.

    JPG concave distortion and vignetting autocorrected in C1



    NEF uncorrected for heavy concave distortion and vignetting



    100% center from NEF with narrow DOF by the wall (front of lamp out of DOF)



    100% corner from NEF out of DOF so sharpness can't be compared (ought to be perhaps f10 instead)


    thorkil
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    DSC_0339 by paul caldwell, on Flickr

    lower right corner DSC_0339 by paul caldwell, on Flickr

    full image DSC_0339 by paul caldwell, on Flickr

    Moving past OP's points, but I did want to check. This shot, was hand held, F9. I did use manual focus, with peaking as I never feel that confident with most Nikon Zooms with AF on a subject like this. The lower left corner is very sharp across the frame, top left is a bit soft, but holds with the rest of the image.

    The shot was worked up in C1, standard sharpening, and uploaded to Flickr (which does add a bit of sharpening which I can't seem to control).

    My take at least so far is that both my 24-70 VR 2 or the 24-70 F4 S lens can do the job, but you really need to check your focus manually, as many times the AF doesn't seem to get the best overall focus. The spot where the AF point is will be in great focus, but many times in a scene like this where I am looking for a huge amount of DOF, I will manually check the shot as often a slight MF tweak, can bring the entire image into a better focus. This is the case with both zooms for me.

    The Fuji 32-64 I will agree is a bit better and the corners may have been slightly better, but for me, not enough to not warrant carrying the Z7 in place of the 50S. The issues that Fuji never resolved around 100% view (Live View) and strange peaking many times make the Nikon system the camera I want to have. Both systems are great and compliment the P1 when I am using a tech setup.

    Paul C
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    Alarm cancelled
    To correct the NEF 24-70/4S distortion I just had to chose under Lens profile "Generic pincushion distortion", set it at 3 and voila, problem easy solved...
    (added some few other things too, to taste) (ought to try later on a f9/10 one in Copenhagen (Stockholm left) to compare corner to center)

    NEF with pinchusion distortion corrected at 3 in C1


    Z7 24-70/4S at iso64 1/60(handheld) f4 64mm C1pro12.0.2win


    thorkil
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    I am surprised at the level of optical distortion inherent in that lens. But for software correction, the lens doesn't seem very well designed.

  30. #30
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    Re: Z7 and X1D - I shot them, don't shoot me...

    I was too, but for now I'm satiesfied, I will just set the pincushion distortion at 3 in the future, until C1 get that lens supported, while it seems that none of the Z-lenses are in the supported list, under lens profiles.
    So to me, with C1, its so easy corrected, I don't bother anymore
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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