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Thread: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

  1. #101
    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    And that's due to the oversampling effect I was discussing above. Matt, I do not believe this is in direct conflict with your comments, but oversampling in digital has a tangible benefit if sampled at Nyquist (2x base resolution) or above. Without going into the math, we basically impart an interpolated artifact at the midpoint (½ Nyquist); and voila, more perceived resolution... In Pegelli's example, it was enough to clarify the data accurately on the 6 to 7 line pairs -- though note we have a hint of a false artifact about ¾ way up that line pair progression in a thicker or darker line. I would further guess that the 7-8 line pairs and above are below Nyquist for that sensor. Would a 200MP sensor generate realistic detail between the 7-8 pairs? I have no idea, but suspect they might, though probably not as accurately as they did for 6-7...
    Jack,

    Oh, I'm not addressing oversampling at all. I'm assuming that the sensor has a proper AA filter, which they never do, these days, which surprises the heck out of me. But:

    In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

    Matt
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  2. #102
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Jack, thanks for the explanation, which to be fair I don't totally understand but so be it. However in practical terms the lines between 6 and 7 seems very much like real detail that is really there and can be seen well with the 42 MP sensor and becomes a moiré'd mess with the 24 MP sensor under identical shooting conditions, lens and aperture. So the conclusion of the Photographylive article that started this discussion doesn't seem to be correct, more MP's give more detail, even with "bad" lenses like I used in my simplistic test.

  3. #103
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Pegelli, firstly we are assuming the lens used cannot out-resolve the A7ii sensor -- that may not be an accurate assumption; and bear in mind, acutance is different than resolution as contrast is in play...

    You could repeat the test with your sensor oriented 45 degrees to the lines, and this would be more telling about the interpolation quality too...
    Jack
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Pegelli, firstly we are assuming the lens used cannot out-resolve the A7ii sensor -- that may not be an accurate assumption; and bear in mind, acutance is different than resolution as contrast is in play...
    True, I can't imagine but don't have any real data. It's just the "unsharpest" lens I have, maybe I'll make a series and see how much it improves when stopping down. Or move the test image closer to the corner, they are so mushy that I cant imagine 24 MP gets resolved there

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    You could repeat the test with your sensor oriented 45 degrees to the lines, and this would be more telling about the interpolation quality too...
    Splendid idea, a job for next week. Stay tuned and I'll report back. I'd like to understand more about the practical aspects of the brick wall vs. slippery slope of lens vs. sensor resolution.

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Jack,

    In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

    Matt
    Exactly! I have used old Sigma and Nikon (ED) 70-300mm lenses, the ones you can get more or less for free these days, on D800 and D810 bodies and seen resolution and sharpness that to the human eye was approaching that of my 85mm f/1.8 and well beyond what they would render with a lower resolution sensor (I also used them on the D700 with much inferior results). Of course the prime looked sharper when pixel peeping, but the perceived resolution when looking at the whole picture was similar, particularly for people shots.

    The problem with lens resolution tests is that they are mostly based on straight lines and hard contrast. In reality, there are very few straight lines in a real photo. Even architecture shots of modern buildings have gradients in the straight lines, and more so with higher resolution. Yes, there is a difference between lenses, but good lenses that according to tests shouldn't resolve more than 24 or even 12MP will still show more detail at 36MP than they do with the lower resolution sensors. Bad lenses on the other hand will always be bad, no matter what. My ancient Tamron 24-135 couldn't even keep up with the 6MP Fuji sensors of the S3 and S5 when shot beyond 50mm.

    It's a bit like the old discussion about perceived detail and Tri-X. One sees detail that shouldn't be there, at least not in theory.

    Did this make sense?

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    Senior Member DougDolde's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    I think if I only wanted 24, actually 26 megapixels I'd buy a Fujifilm X-T3

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    I find the ergos on Sony cams annoying at best.
    Jack
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    I think if I only wanted 24, actually 26 megapixels I'd buy a Fujifilm X-T3
    The disadvantage buying into the Fuji system is that one gets locked into APS-C. With Nikon, both sensor sizes are available, in addition to the option of going very high resolution with the Z7 if needed later. Nikon also offers IBIS, which may or may not be important. When it comes to size, the X-T3 is almost as large as the Nikon and almost as heavy. Changing brands also means changing user interface and menu systems.

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I find the ergos on Sony cams annoying at best.
    Good for you, but that's very personal.

    I have the same with any Nikon body shape. Performance wise I've always wanted to have a Nikon but as soon as I handle the body (DSLR or Z makes no difference) that desire is sunk very quickly. It's good there are choices so everybody can choose what's right for him or her.
    My Pics
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  10. #110
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Thread is about getting a Z6, Z7 or both.

    Not about brands, ergos of other brands, different sized sensors
    weight, or needs & wants, or whether one can or cannot afford any particular camera
    brand eco system.

    Jack has already committed to a system of his
    chosing. i wish him good light with his choice.

    Others, have made their choice, accepting a system’s
    compromises ( or not ? ). Good luck to them.

    i would prefer to see images made with any system.

    Endless talk regurgitating the merits or otherwise
    of camera systems does not improve my photography nor
    expand my image making vision or thought.

    As a mediocre photog n a verrry sloweww learner please show
    me your work...not what tool u used to create it.
    koffee & kamera
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  11. #111
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Ray,

    I'll share my wrk with the new gear once I actually get it

    While I agree generally with your comment, I disagree that gear discussion has no merit. We all understand certain gears fulfilling individual needs better than others, and the discussion of those merits can have a beneficial effect on a would-be purchaser. For example, after reading what Pegelli said about Nikon ergos and what I said about Sony ergos, a shooter who didn't feel fully comfortable with Nikon ergos, might now decide to look at Sony before making their final choice -- a hopefully a better decision *for them* will result from it.

    Pax,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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