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Thread: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    It's time for me to consider the move. So who's compared both? Obviously the 7 has a more resolution, but how do they each perform relative to the other as far as color, noise and general IQ rendering? Looking at images, it appears both are highly capable (very highly). Yet they have distinct enough capabilities that perhaps a good case could be made for having one of each?

    Next, which lenses? I like primes, but both the 14-30 and (both) 24-70's look like they can deliver pretty impressive results. Are the the 24, 35, 50 or 85 prime so good you consider them mandatory?

    Thanks in advance, and images welcome!!!
    Jack
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    Senior Member JohnBrew's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ?

    Jack, sorry I made the move. I had an easier time getting what I wanted with the D810 than the Z7. An OVF still beats the EVF in the Z7. The zoom in feature for manual focusing is too fuzzy to be of critical help and the focus by wire for native lens is so sensitive it must be on a tripod.
    How do I know this? I tried a Leica M adapter for the 90 Elmarit-M and then put the lens on a Leica. Not even close. I feel the same way about the FTZ adapter and F lenses, what a crap shoot. There could be some sample variation as my rental Z7 was perfect with my 70-200 f4 - then when I purchased the Z7 I really struggle to get a good image with it now. I believe some of it is that the Z body does not balance well with long lenses hand-held. I cannot see that the IBIS is of any help.
    So I returned the adapter and ordered the 85 1.8S. The AF is adequate with the native lenses, but I have still had problems, problems I didn’t have with the D810.
    I’m frustrated and have relegated the Z7 to landscape only. Luckily I still have several Leica’s...
    I wanted to go on a diet camera wise and did but losing the 810 was a (too late realized) pita.
    I know many are over the moon about the new cameras but I feel it was rushed into production due to market pressure.
    Good luck with your decision.

    PS. The Nikon 50 1.8S was better than my Otus 55 w/FTZ.
    So there is good news with the lenses!
    Last edited by JohnBrew; 27th December 2019 at 15:48.
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    What John said.
    I haven't used the Z-cameras yet, but have used mirrorless cameras of many brands for 10 years. Still, I keep coming back to the optical viewfinder for "user satisfaction". Since you're asking about the Z6, I would recommend having a look at the D780 first, a camera that is supposed to be launched early January:

    https://nikonrumors.com/2019/12/26/n...-january.aspx/

    The rule-of-thumb for me has become: Things that move, OVF, stationary objects, EVF. No matter how good the EVF is, I always get a feeling of delay when I move the camera fast. Then there's shutter release response. Nothing compares to good, old click-clack technology there.

    I still regret selling my D810. I bought a D800 a few months ago for a very good price, and if my travel activity calms down a bit, I will use it more. It's the camera I use for industrial photography now. Later, I will look for a low mileage D810 or D850... or even the D780 if they have changed the viewfinder eyepiece to the round version.

    For travel, I mostly use m43 (Panasonic). It's unbeatable for weight and size.
    https://www.un.org/en/sections/un-ch...r-i/index.html
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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Thanks for the honest replies, John and Jørgen.
    It's a boon to old OVF/SLR users ...... and provides us with a good reason to to rush into an upgrade.


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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    I am a MILC owner who prefers a great OVF (e.g., in H6D) to an EVF. I feel more involved with an OVF.

    Nonetheless, I also see clear advantages of EVFs. Depending on your eyesight, an EVF can bring relief. When light is low (low ambient light, slow lens, attached ND filter), EVF can provide a bright and informative view. An EVF has a higher resolution than an LCD typically, making it a better screen to check the focus. And last, but not least, when shooting, you can quickly review your image without taking your eye off the viewfinder.

    Some day EVF-s may advance to have adequate contrast and dynamic range, but at the moment, I have to live with a compromise if I want to use a camera with EVF.

    Answering Jack's question: get a Z 7. The Z lenses are great.

    Higher resolution means you can crop with less penalty to the image, and you can do particular transformations with less damage to the picture. Sean Reid noticed that Leica Q2's SDC causes less damage to the image than SDC on Leica Q, most likely because of the higher resolution of Q2.
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Wow, thanks guys -- interesting comments. I spent a little time with the Sony A7r a few years back, and never gelled with it. I was hoping the Z7 would be different, but it sounds like maybe not...

    Maybe the better answer for me is to jump into the Fuji GFX system. My needs are pretty simple, 50MP is more than ample, I prefer the 3:4 aspect ratio over 2:3, and of late have been shooting a lot more square. The 32-64 Fuji zoom would cover 90% of what I want to shoot with it as of course would a 24-70 on the Z7. Looking at some reviews, it appears the Fuji is superior especially in the higher ISO noise-detail department, also something I use frequently as I shoot in dim light. The GFX 50R is not a huge stretch dollar-wise over the Z7. Hmmm...
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    I use both the D850 and Z7.

    The D850 I reserve mainly for birds, and trains. I have yet to find a EVF that can keep up with the fast movement of birds, but the Z7 comes close.

    Z lenses, 14 30, I hate to say it, but it's vastly superior to the old F 2.8 14-24 which was my mainstay for years on Nikon. The 14-30 has much less distortion towards the edges, and very little if any of the terrible Magenta flare issues the 14-24 has in the opposite corner from a bright light. The 14-30 also has less aberrations than the 14-24. Sharpness I give the edge to the 14-30.

    24-70 F 2.8, amazing optic, superior to my 24-70 F 2.8 VR II especially on the long end from 50mm to 70mm.

    I regularly use the 80-400 with the Z7, it's a bit out of balance with the lens, but still has good results. Nikon is a bit vague on how the older VR lenses work in conjunction with IBIS, as if you turn of VR on the lens, you also turn off IBIS, not sure why that is.

    My kit for Nikon is pretty limited now as all I carry in the field is the 24-70Z, 14-30Z and 80-400, which covers the focal ranges I need.

    Noise, I was never happy with the D850 and noise even at lowest ISO, just not as clean as the Stellar D810, but for the extra resolution I will tolerate the noise. Z7 does seem a bit cleaner, especially in the ISO 400 to 2000 range.

    Why Nikon only allows I card slot to me is strange, as they should have allowed a 2nd card on the Z7.

    I find the manual focus on the Z7 with peaking excellent, prefer it over the D850's Live View 100% view on the LCD. Peaking, IMO gives an excellent feedback to obtaining a good focus. Here having an EVF is a real plus as in most outdoor light, it's hard to really dial in focus on the cameras LCD due to reflections and other brightness issues, being able to see all of this in the blackout EVF is plus.

    Color, I can't tell any difference in a D850 and Z7 image, in C1, which is all I use now.

    Continuous mode in H speed is impressive on the Z7, with the XQD cards. I got so used to the Z7 on continuous mode that I screwed up on my first day shooting the Union Pacific Big Boy with the D850, as I mistakenly had the camera set to write to the SD card, and that buffers out much faster.

    Weight, given, it's smaller and lighter. I don't use the battery grip on my D850. The Z7 with the 45mm Nikon Pancake F 2.8 lens is a very light package even with the FTZ adapter on there.

    The IBIS on the Z7 for me is a better solution than D850 VR, I just get better results.

    I just wish Phase One would allow a sharpness falloff adjustment for the Z7 images (I realize it's a mirrorless exif and C1 reads that, but I prefer the slider). C1 is also behind on lens support for the Z7, at least last time I checked. They are also sadly unaware that the 80-400 needs support. I have given up sending them emails asking for that lens to be added. The 80-400 can be an excellent optic.

    Paul C
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Wow, thanks guys -- interesting comments. I spent a little time with the Sony A7r a few years back, and never gelled with it. I was hoping the Z7 would be different, but it sounds like maybe not...

    Maybe the better answer for me is to jump into the Fuji GFX system. My needs are pretty simple, 50MP is more than ample, I prefer the 3:4 aspect ratio over 2:3, and of late have been shooting a lot more square. The 32-64 Fuji zoom would cover 90% of what I want to shoot with it as of course would a 24-70 on the Z7. Looking at some reviews, it appears the Fuji is superior especially in the higher ISO noise-detail department, also something I use frequently as I shoot in dim light. The GFX 50R is not a huge stretch dollar-wise over the Z7. Hmmm...
    I had a GFX 50S and never really liked it. Slow to operate, cumbersome ergonomics, but great lenses.
    Since you care about high ISO behavior, I assume that you shoot handheld a lot. Note that GFX 50R does not have IBIS, nor has 32-64 optical image stabilization. IMO, the only possible advantage of GFX 50R is the size of the sensor (MF vs FF). The other GFX advantage, tiltable EVF, is not available with GFX50R.

    Other mirrorless systems worthy a look but unfortunately pricy: Panasonic S1R, Leica SL2, Hasselblad X1D.

    I think Z 7 reaches the optimum when accounting for ergonomics, price, features, versatility, and image quality.

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    For sure take a 50R or S on a test drive. Optics on all the lenses are excellent.

    Personally I never had any issues with the 50S.

    Paul C

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Wow, thanks guys -- interesting comments. I spent a little time with the Sony A7r a few years back, and never gelled with it. I was hoping the Z7 would be different, but it sounds like maybe not...

    Maybe the better answer for me is to jump into the Fuji GFX system. My needs are pretty simple, 50MP is more than ample, I prefer the 3:4 aspect ratio over 2:3, and of late have been shooting a lot more square. The 32-64 Fuji zoom would cover 90% of what I want to shoot with it as of course would a 24-70 on the Z7. Looking at some reviews, it appears the Fuji is superior especially in the higher ISO noise-detail department, also something I use frequently as I shoot in dim light. The GFX 50R is not a huge stretch dollar-wise over the Z7. Hmmm...
    The A7R IV is a fine camera in many ways, but at my age, I can't be bothered to adapt to the Sony ergonomics which I consider lacklustre in any case. The Z6/7 are Nikons with Nikon ergonomics. What you have to figure out is if an EVF is for you or not. I don't doubt for a second that the Z-mount lenses are better than most F-mount lenses. That, and some weight savings, might at the end of the day be more important than the endless mirrorless vs DSLR discussion.

    Fuji is fine, image quality is fantastic, but even the R is rather big. Ergonomics are charming but rather quirky (unless you miss the Nikon F4), and there's no stabilisation.

    Have you considered the Nikon D810?

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Wow, thanks guys -- interesting comments. I spent a little time with the Sony A7r a few years back, and never gelled with it. I was hoping the Z7 would be different, but it sounds like maybe not...

    Maybe the better answer for me is to jump into the Fuji GFX system. My needs are pretty simple, 50MP is more than ample, I prefer the 3:4 aspect ratio over 2:3, and of late have been shooting a lot more square. The 32-64 Fuji zoom would cover 90% of what I want to shoot with it as of course would a 24-70 on the Z7. Looking at some reviews, it appears the Fuji is superior especially in the higher ISO noise-detail department, also something I use frequently as I shoot in dim light. The GFX 50R is not a huge stretch dollar-wise over the Z7. Hmmm...
    Bonus with Fuji is C1 supports them - teh only reason I switched from 50S to 100 was the EVF ( fantastic) and IBIS - which is unbelievable. The IQ from any of these is fantastic all the glass is - fantastic.

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    Have you considered the Nikon D810?
    Touche I love it's images, but am tired of it's bulk. I'm even tired of the faster lenses bulk's.

    Thank you all for your replies, they have me more confused than when I started I need to demo both, then decide...
    Jack
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    If you're tired of the bulk of the D810, then you're not going to like either of the Fuji 50's - they're bulkier.

    The Z7 is great in pretty much every way, and the EVF while not an OVF is a tolerable compromise for such a small camera IMO. As usual, the best camera is the one you actually have with you! It's not just the image quality of the EVF (which is actually quite good), but you're looking at an interpretation rather than the real world, so it adds a layer to visualization (since that's an interpretation); it also goes through batteries significantly faster (not a big deal, just spring a spare), uses ridiculously overpriced XQD cards (which are great for action, but this is not an action camera), and is slow to turn on. Remember with an EVF you can't see through it until it's powered on, and the Z7 takes 1-2 seconds to wake from sleep. If you quickly lift it to your eye for an opportunistic shot you're unlikely to get it, in the time it takes the camera to come on whatever you were going to shoot is gone. So it's not a Leica alternative. But even with those drawbacks the bulk reduction and form factor is a huge win IMO. And the S glass is universally excellent; while it can be argued one lens is better than another, like the 50 is better than the 35, the reality is if you want a 35 buy the 35, by any objective standard it's superb.
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    Senior Member DougDolde's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    I'm still shooting the D850 and have no plans to go mirrorless. Coming from medium format it's quite small and light

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Touche I love it's images, but am tired of it's bulk. I'm even tired of the faster lenses bulk's.
    While the Z bodies are certainly less bulky and a couple of hundred grams lighter than a D750 (if the Z6 would be sufficient, the D750 would, and the upcoming D780), extra batteries take a bit off that argument. The prime lenses in Z-mount however are all heavier if you compare f/1.8 to f/1.8. I don't doubt that some or all of them are sharper though.

    In your situation, I would pick up a used Z6 or 7 with one lens and see where that brings you.

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Brittenson View Post
    If you're tired of the bulk of the D810, then you're not going to like either of the Fuji 50's - they're bulkier.

    The Z7 is great in pretty much every way, and the EVF while not an OVF is a tolerable compromise for such a small camera IMO. As usual, the best camera is the one you actually have with you! It's not just the image quality of the EVF (which is actually quite good), but you're looking at an interpretation rather than the real world, so it adds a layer to visualization (since that's an interpretation); it also goes through batteries significantly faster (not a big deal, just spring a spare), uses ridiculously overpriced XQD cards (which are great for action, but this is not an action camera), and is slow to turn on. Remember with an EVF you can't see through it until it's powered on, and the Z7 takes 1-2 seconds to wake from sleep. If you quickly lift it to your eye for an opportunistic shot you're unlikely to get it, in the time it takes the camera to come on whatever you were going to shoot is gone. So it's not a Leica alternative. But even with those drawbacks the bulk reduction and form factor is a huge win IMO. And the S glass is universally excellent; while it can be argued one lens is better than another, like the 50 is better than the 35, the reality is if you want a 35 buy the 35, by any objective standard it's superb.
    This says it all. Very balanced and a great contribution

    The part about the viewfinder not being always on is of great importance for me, and one of the reasons why I use Panasonic mirrorless, since it allows me to keep the EVF on at all times excepts when the camera goes to sleep. Many mirrorless cameras (I haven't tested Nikon for this) switches the viewfinder off as soon as you take the camera from your eye, and there's a delay before it switches on again. It's just a fraction of a second, but with the way I often take photos (environmental portraits and street photography in particular, sports of course), that interrupts my contact with the subject long enough for my brain to kind of "restart" the composition process. It's done to save battery life of course, but this is one of the great features of DSLR cameras: you don't have to worry about battery life. Well, almost... with my OM-1, I changed battery less than ten times in 30 years

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    Senior Member Darin Marcus's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Hello Jack,

    I am not sure how useful my opinion will be to you since:
    - I've never tried a Z7, nor any of the S primes, and also none of the other FF mirrorless cameras (from other manufacturers)
    - I am not a pro, so the way I use my cameras most likely does not match your (and the others') ways

    I did not upgrade from the D810 to the D850 because I do not need the extra resolution, nor the extra requirements on glass and shooting technique that the increased resolution brings with it.
    I decided to keep the D810 (and the Df too), so I went with a Z6 to complement it. The Z6 has less resolution (but a weak-ish AA filter), a little faster AF-C (especially in low light), and better video (though I have not yet got to it...) than the Z7.

    In my opinion, Nikon's play with the Z system is not as much about the cameras (though they try to release competitive products) as it is about the new mount and the S lenses for it.
    We are still in the early days of the Z mount, but I can already tell the the 24-70mm f/2.8 S is worth it. Can't wait to try the 70-200mm f/2.8 S (January 2020 based on the latest rumors).

    People may like it or not where Nikon is going with the Z mount lenses, but I think there is no turning back. I believe that during the latest 'group retirement' wave, many of the old style lens designers left Nikon. I do not think that the classic lens 'character' will show up in their lenses going forward. The more recent F mount lenses show some of these changes (for example the 105mm f/1.4), and the best S lenses take this further based on the characteristics of the Z mount. It appears that Nikon tries to balance resolution/sharpness with something I call 'realism' for the lack of a better word (others call it 'clinical' - I do not agree with this when it comes to the 24-70mm f/2.8 S). I love the rendering of the 24-70mm f/2.8 S. The S primes may be larger/heavier than their F relatives, but are all better and all stabilized on the Z6/7.

    So my plan was to sample de Z system while still having the D810 for more resolution, 3D tracking and faster action.
    However, after a year of using the Z6 and a month with the Z50 I find my D810 and Df gathering dust on the shelf. I will soon force myself to take them out for a photowalk just so they don't feel neglected...
    But all this happens as I don't shoot fast action, nor do street/candid photography. I also don't look for too long through the EVF at any given time (I take a few photos, walk a little, take another few) so there is no significant strain on my eyes.

    So my suggestion would be to keep the D850 for a little while more, and to get a Z6 with the 24-70mm f/2.8 S (if possible), or the f/4 if you want less weight, and see how that works. Then, if you like it, you can replace the D850 with a Z7 mII down the road...
    Even if the Zs feel like Nikon cameras, there are some differences in usability due to their mirrorless nature. It is now second nature to me to gently touch the shutter button or the AF-ON button as I raise the Z6 to my eye - when I get to look through the EVF, it is already on and ready to shoot
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    Senior Member Darin Marcus's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Oh, and a photo for the road...



    Nikon Z6, Nikkor Z 24-70mm f/2.8 S @ 37mm, 1/80, f/4, ISO 400

    Processed in Capture NX-D / ViewNX-i
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Thanks for the added replies guys, all good input.

    Darian, love your images, and thank you for posting one in this thread To be clear, I never upgraded to the D850, as the size/weight of the D810 and lenses was nagging me already. The Z6 would likely serve me fine right now too, but as I said above I'm shooting a lot more square now, so that trims either Z cam resolution down to 2/3rds, so 24MP of the Z6 drops to 16, and that's starting to get a little thin by today's sensor standards. I also appreciate the fact the Z7 has no AA --- I *loved* that about the D810 and how it rendered so naturally.

    Gonna take a look at a Fuji GFX body and lens before I finalize, but suspect as per Jan's comments it will be bigger than I want.
    Jack
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Thanks for the added replies guys, all good input.

    Darian, love your images, and thank you for posting one in this thread To be clear, I never upgraded to the D850, as the size/weight of the D810 and lenses was nagging me already. The Z6 would likely serve me fine right now too, but as I said above I'm shooting a lot more square now, so that trims either Z cam resolution down to 2/3rds, so 24MP of the Z6 drops to 16, and that's starting to get a little thin by today's sensor standards. I also appreciate the fact the Z7 has no AA --- I *loved* that about the D810 and how it rendered so naturally.

    Gonna take a look at a Fuji GFX body and lens before I finalize, but suspect as per Jan's comments it will be bigger than I want.
    Jack, come back here to ask about Z 7 tips if you decide to go that route. Remember to turn on EFCS when testing/using mirrorless cameras.

    - Srdjan

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    Senior Member JohnBrew's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Jack, I am shooting my Z7 at 5:4 and 1:1. The FF files just get bogged down when I focus stack or stitch.

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    The Z7 files leave nothing to desire for me. Quality is wonderful and easily better than my skills. For me it is the combined footprint of a possible kit along with very some very practical features, such as, bluetooth integration and a wonderful EVF which creates a package making me using it most of the time, despite other strong contenders in the household ...
    I don't do sports, however, or birds in flight, for example. Finally, I sold my 810. Too large, too little extra to the z7 for my cases. Their primes are really outstanding and actually quite well priced in my eyes.
    I can mount M lenses on it and get crisp and sharp images from it, IBIS certainly being a plus. The z7 actually is a good compliment to an M, as not being so much larger, and adding some very useful features.

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    Senior Member DougDolde's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    If you are going to go mirrorless why not the Leica SL2 ?

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    If you are going to go mirrorless why not the Leica SL2 ?
    Price v performance doesn't justify it for me over the Z7. In fact, I am having a difficult time justifying the cost of a Z7, so am re-thinking the Z6
    Jack
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Either way you go, both are showing a huge savings over the original list. 1K on Z7 and 575 on Z6.

    Based on B&H price with rebates applied.

    Paul C

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Price v performance doesn't justify it for me over the Z7. In fact, I am having a difficult time justifying the cost of a Z7, so am re-thinking the Z6
    I'm burned out on chasing the golden goose too. It is very bad on your bank account

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    I'm burned out on chasing the golden goose too. It is very bad on your bank account
    Especially since there is no such thing - only forum chatter...

    my strategy is to sell two things before buying anything - has been working a treat for a couple of years...shows how sick with GAS I've been in the past..still plenty of bling to go.
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    I would claim that a Z6 or Z7 with a 14-30/4S + 24-70/4S + an adapted 70-200/4G ED are more than enough for any normal human being.
    I'm just a simple man, who's call for a camera's ability are simple. And the Z7 are more than up to the job, satisfying me, and it do it in a very pleasant, solid and simple way.
    I've got the 50S and 35S, but cutting down I could do fine with zoom's above (1/15 is fine with IBIS and normal focal length). Perhaps a 20/1.8S could be interesting for me as a walk around lens, as alternative to the 14-30/4.
    There came some issues in with the 70-200/4 after firmwareupdate. But haven't got time to investigate in the new recent firmware and adjustment for the 70-200/4, and perhaps the new firmware got a positive effect on the adapted 70-200/4.
    The combo of the Z and the S-lenses give a healthy contrast, super sharpness, and healthy colors. Well, perhaps a bit too healthy, but we are down to minor preferences.
    But I often do miss the rendering of my old-fashioned (Jack to blame ) lenses, 18/2.8D, 28/1.4D, 105DC, 135DC and 180/2.8D. "Unperfected" in the smeary and charming way. Luckily (or should I rather say sadly, while it often put you mentally in a schizophrenic consideration) I still got them all plus the Df, but fact is that I rather grab the Z7+14-30/4S or the 24-70/4S (depends the mood), (easily fits in my rather small Tamrac 3442 slingback, without being any heavy burden while walking) reaching out on the way towards the door, because of it's easy and superproof function, fast and non-mind-breaking (can't think of any other camera that is talking in such a simple, solid and precise language to me).
    The Z7 for up to rather heavy crops and crispness.
    (and holding a Z - it just fits in a way no other Nikon..and no other camera)
    thorkil
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    The 70-200/4 is a very nice lens, but suffers from its lack of nanocoat, so has slightly low contrast. I suspect its lack of contrast also affects its AF performance, which is somewhat slow. But on the whole the form factor is great and I've gotten many shots I'm extremely happy with from it. I do wish Nikon will produce a 70-200/4 S that is as good as the f/2.8 only a stop slower and as compact as that allows.

    The 24-70/4 S is an excellent lens. But I was shocked to discover it vignettes at under 28mm with my trusty old Heliopan 72mm Jet-Pola. (I think I got this in the 90s to use with an AI-S 85/1.4 originally!) This is a great polarizer with a rotational scale; not particularly deep or anything, but clearly a slim filter is called for with this lens... 72mm is kinda oddball these days though.
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    The 14-30 S is also a great lens. The only shortcoming I've found with it is the shade is too shallow and I sometimes have to reach out to block direct sunlight from hitting the front element. I like the form factor though, which mandates a non-telescoping lens front, which means the shade is fixed to the widest angle of view. Maybe an adjustable shade would be a workable accessory, but then a hand or hat works pretty well too...
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    I was in a similar position, purchased the Z6 initially, coming from (in the DSLR world) from a d810 and df with custom focusing screens and magnifying eye pieces for increased manual focus accuracy. While I found the OVF faster and more accurate for manual focusing (fairly static people photography), the Z6 was the first camera in almost three decades where I wanted to use auto focus. Two reasons: I was no longer restricted to centralised focusing points only, I always hated focus + recompose technique, and I did not have to worry about focus shifts or miscalibration of lenses (although using Sigma's calibration dock on their art lenses got me the closest to having sharp images when it comes to body+lens calibration).

    Other factors in favour, for me, were: much smaller size (not compromising on ergonomics) and in-body vibration reduction, it really does wonders, especially on higher MP count cameras.

    After shooting the Z6 for a few months, I liked it so much I sold it and got a Z7, and despite being a more demanding camera on technique and ever-soooo-slightly less responsive AF, for me, it was predominantly the 5:4 crop I was missing on the Z6.

    Z6 vs Z7 is a compromise of sorts, even though the high ISO images on the Z6 were gorgeous(!!!), yet the low-pass filter made everything too smooth (including low ISOs) on the Z6. Despite the Z7 images being noisier at higher ISOs I much prefer the natively sharper Z7 files throughout the entire ISO range.

    I did look at the Fuji GFXr as a smaller body but the bulk of the equipment, no image stabilization and slower AF put me off. Although I absolutely loved the idea of having an XPAN crop aspect in the body for travel (but then I would never take it for travel as it is too bulky )

    It might be worth mentioning that I use the Z7 with 1.4 G prime lenses (35mm widest to 85mm the longest) and FTZ adapter, no issues whatsoever.

    Pat
    Last edited by robdeszan; 5th January 2020 at 23:41. Reason: Cohesion amendments
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Some of the recent firmware features are nice, too. I have U3 set up for "dumb mode" where I can just hand the camera to someone to take a shot, with:
    - Eye AF, Auto AF area
    - AF-S
    - AF on shutter
    - AF assist light
    - Auto ISO
    - Single shot
    - Rear preview enabled

    I'll load U3, then set it to P mode and switch to the rear screen. U1 is my regular settings, and I'll use U2 if I want an alternative setup and quickly switch between them.

    Basically, U3 is as close to a P&S as possible. I guess we call them smartphones these days? This way I don't have to explain the AF-On button, or any of the other settings. The Eye focus is brilliant for this since most of the time they'll be taking a photo of people (including me).

    The 14-30 and 24-70 lenses have a control dial, roughly comparable to an aperture dial. With the 2.10 firmware it can be set to act as the aperture control. I really like that since that's where my left hand typically rests anyway! Wish the 35/1.8 S had the dial, also.

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    It's time for me to consider the move. So who's compared both? Obviously the 7 has a more resolution, but how do they each perform relative to the other as far as color, noise and general IQ rendering? Looking at images, it appears both are highly capable (very highly). Yet they have distinct enough capabilities that perhaps a good case could be made for having one of each?

    Next, which lenses? I like primes, but both the 14-30 and (both) 24-70's look like they can deliver pretty impressive results. Are the the 24, 35, 50 or 85 prime so good you consider them mandatory?

    Thanks in advance, and images welcome!!!
    Jack,

    just reading this now but here my honest answer.

    I tried both cameras and had several shootouts with both, I preferred the Z7 because of higher resolution obviously and it does video just fine for me. If I would be more into video then I would choose the Z6. Both are beautiful and excellent mirrorless cameras.

    WRT lenses I tested most of the Z primes and all are stellar. You should be blown away with the results of these new 1.8 primes. WRT 24-70 both the F4 and the F2.8 are excellent, but I preferred highly the 2.8 version. Lies good in hand with these 2 cameras and delivers stunning results.

    WRT mirrorless versus DSLR - I actually am shooting mirrorless since over 10 years now almost exclusively and meanwhile mirrorless has become so good that I would use it for all occasions and shooting scenarios. And if you already own a Nikon DSLR (as I know you do) I would simply keep that for when you ever want to shoot OVF again and call it a day.

    But I should mention some encounter I had some days ago what describes a bit the way I am evolving and obviously will go over the next years as it might br also of interest for you. I tested the new Fujifilm X-Pro3 and this camera was just perfect for me - stealthy, lightweight, small, fast in all regards and with all lenses I tested it. Then I compared it in store to Nikon Z7 with 4/24-70 which is definitely known as a very light combo, and man - I turned the Nikon down and took immediately the X-Pro3 back in my hands - so great is the feel of that camera(system).

    Now I DO DEFINITELY NOT WANT to convince anybody here, but for most of my shooting purposes a lightweight unobtrusive camera is obviously what I am looking nowadays for (after shooting Olympus mirrorless for many years). That Fuji system (which is BTW not new to me) could easily become my camera system for the next decade as it has several advantages over Olympus mainly based on the larger sensor but with still relatively small camera bodies and lenses.

    Why am I writing this now? I think we all evolve in what we want and how we shoot and photograph and for me a lightweight and small but at the same time high quality system has become an absolute must for everyday shooting. So even the relatively small and compact Z system became already too big for me, let alone any DSLR based system. But that Fuji X system just rings almost all bells for me ....

    Anyway all the best with your decision whatever it may be an happy shooting for the next decade

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    This says it all. Very balanced and a great contribution

    The part about the viewfinder not being always on is of great importance for me, and one of the reasons why I use Panasonic mirrorless, since it allows me to keep the EVF on at all times excepts when the camera goes to sleep. Many mirrorless cameras (I haven't tested Nikon for this) switches the viewfinder off as soon as you take the camera from your eye, and there's a delay before it switches on again. It's just a fraction of a second, but with the way I often take photos (environmental portraits and street photography in particular, sports of course), that interrupts my contact with the subject long enough for my brain to kind of "restart" the composition process. It's done to save battery life of course, but this is one of the great features of DSLR cameras: you don't have to worry about battery life. Well, almost... with my OM-1, I changed battery less than ten times in 30 years
    I do not see a setting to keep the viewfinder on at all times while the camera is switched on. However, you can tape the eye sensor right above the finder. Sort of a hardware switch ... The switching lag is there btw, but in my eye acceptable - no pun intended.

    Cheers
    Ivo

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Photon42 View Post
    I do not see a setting to keep the viewfinder on at all times while the camera is switched on. However, you can tape the eye sensor right above the finder. Sort of a hardware switch ... The switching lag is there btw, but in my eye acceptable - no pun intended.

    Cheers
    Ivo
    I suppose that would also switch the bothersome LCD off permanently

    There's a solution to all this. It's called D780. Mirrorless technology with OVF and decent battery life

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    There's a solution to all this. It's called D780. Mirrorless technology with OVF and decent battery life
    Unfortunately not with the short mirrorless flange distance which for me is one of the main attractions, together with a magnified view in the viewfinder. But I guess everybody has different needs and wants so for some it will indeed be a great camera.

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    The 300 PF is such an incredibly compact and good lens. It also works well with the TC-14EIII, although there is noticeable contrast lost and it's easily provoked to flare; by that I mean PF style flaring around very bright objects. PF style flaring really requires trying without the extender (point it at the sun basically), but for some reason the extender brings up the propensity significantly. As such, the combo works but requires careful use. I can't wait to get my hands on a 500 PF.

    These were shot with the Z7 + 300PF + TC-14EIII at Myakka River SP near Sarasota, FL. M 1/350, f/5.6, auto ISO (around 100-400). I used Dynamic AF but in hindsight should have used spot as the camera likes to focus on the body rather than head/eye of something as small as a bird, but AF single spot tracking is pretty poor on the Z7. No serious shooting here, just trying things out. Verdict: serviceable in a pinch, and an easy combo to have on hand, but overall nothing to write home about.





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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    For my style of shooting, I'm honestly thinking now that a GFX 50 with the 32-64 lens is all I need... Bigger sensor for the look, great higher ISO performance. Yes it's a little larger than a Z6/7, but if I'm already carrying something other than my cell phone, it's not that much bigger.
    Jack
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Definitely a lot of appeal in the big Fujis!

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Here's the biggest issue for me: I really dislike the 2:3 aspect ratio I much prefer 3:4 or 1:1. 4:5 doesn't really work for me either, but I prefer it to 2:3 -- note that back when I shot 4x5 film, the "usable" film area was closer to 3:4 due to the film-holder borders. The Fuji is native 3:4 , but it's bulky . The Nikon is native 2:3, has 4:5 and 1:1 so it nets a half , but it's certainly compact which nets it a . Both are highly adaptable to other lenses, another feature I like.

    Soooo now I'm edging back into the Z camp. Currently agonizing over if 24MP cropped is enough for what I do -- and I feel it probably is for 90%, or is doubling the pixel count worth the extra $1000 for the 10% of the time I'd like to have it (and also the price of the 12-30 lens) or not...

    I've lost my local camera store so have no way to demo either, which of course makes the decision much more difficult.
    Jack
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    I don't know how large you print, but cropping considered, you would probably be more happy with the Z7, particularly since you come from the D810.

    The Fuji will offer more pixels, somewhat better image quality etc., but once you start to add lenses, it becomes expensive. It also has limitations that you must be aware of. It's probably perfect for landscapes and other slow work though, and you do have the option of keeping the old Nikon.

    Whatever you choose, I would look at second hand options. My local shop has a GFX 50R in mint condition for $2,600 without lens. Mirrorless cameras seem to lose value faster than their DSLR brothers.

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    If I go Fuji, it will have to be used. I'd buy the Nikons used too if I could find one -- my needs are minimal. Currently there are a few refurb Z6/Z7 and lenses at B&H, but the net savings are not very compelling.
    Jack
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    If I go Fuji, it will have to be used. I'd buy the Nikons used too if I could find one -- my needs are minimal. Currently there are a few refurb Z6/Z7 and lenses at B&H, but the net savings are not very compelling.
    Maybe it would be wise to wait for the Z8 as then the Z7 should become lot cheaper. The Z8 should be announced sometime during 2020 ....

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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Maybe it would be wise to wait for the Z8 as then the Z7 should become lot cheaper. The Z8 should be announced sometime during 2020 ....
    Possibly -- but I think a lot of the reduction they just got was due to that
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Maybe it would be wise to wait for the Z8 as then the Z7 should become lot cheaper. The Z8 should be announced sometime during 2020 ....
    I have never found it wise to wait for an unannounced camera.
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    It's time for me to consider the move. So who's compared both? Obviously the 7 has a more resolution, but how do they each perform relative to the other as far as color, noise and general IQ rendering? Looking at images, it appears both are highly capable (very highly). Yet they have distinct enough capabilities that perhaps a good case could be made for having one of each?

    Next, which lenses? I like primes, but both the 14-30 and (both) 24-70's look like they can deliver pretty impressive results. Are the the 24, 35, 50 or 85 prime so good you consider them mandatory?

    Thanks in advance, and images welcome!!!
    Hello Jack,

    Happy new year to you and your familly !

    I can speak only for the Z6 I use since January 2019. I never wanted to own a D8xx and stayed with my trusty D700. When the Z6 was available, I took a big decision and bought it with the 24/70 f4 … just with the feeling. I needed a new work horse and I found it. Weddings, shows, portraiture … this thing absolutely don't fail me : I work great.

    Of course there is a little learning curve and things to understand.

    I use it with the 24/70 f4, the 180f2.8D and the 58 f 1.4

    For my use and in my opinion, this is a very good camera.

    Hope you'll make a choice and like it.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Thank you all for the informative feedback. I decided to pull the trigger on a Z6 refurb kit w/ 24-70/4. I do believe 24MP will be plenty, especially for the type of images I want to create. With the savings from the refurb kit, I added an L plate and a lensbaby 56mm Velvet to the cart We will see! The 14-30 is my shopping cart -- as soon as I play with the cam a bit and confirm I like it, that trigger will get pulled too
    Last edited by Jack; 9th January 2020 at 13:40.
    Jack
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Thank you all for the informative feedback. I decided to pull the trigger on a Z6 refurb kit w/ 24-70/4. I do believe 24MP will be plenty, especially for the type of images I want to create. With the savings from the refurb kit, I added an L plate and a lensbaby 56mm Velvet to the cart We will see! The 14-30 is my shopping cart -- as soon as I play with the cam a bit and confirm I like it, that trigger will get pulled too
    Congratulations!

  49. #49
    Senior Member Darin Marcus's Avatar
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Thank you all for the informative feedback. I decided to pull the trigger on a Z6 refurb kit w/ 24-70/4. I do believe 24MP will be plenty, especially for the type of images I want to create. With the savings from the refurb kit, I added an L plate and a lensbaby 56mm Velvet to the cart We will see! The 14-30 is my shopping cart -- as soon as I play with the cam a bit and confirm I like it, that trigger will get pulled too
    Good luck Jack, I hope it works well for you!

    Mrs. Washington is happy



    Nikon Z6, Nikkor Z 24-70mm f/2.8 S @ 55mm, 1/25, f/2.8, ISO 100, Nikon Adobe RGB

    Crossposted from the 'People and Portraits Photos Pool' thread.
    This is a horizontal 5:4 crop of a photo shot in portrait mode - from 24MP to about 9MP, and then resized for web.
    Last edited by Darin Marcus; 9th January 2020 at 17:31.
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    Re: Z6 or Z7 -- or both ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Thank you all for the informative feedback. I decided to pull the trigger on a Z6 refurb kit w/ 24-70/4. I do believe 24MP will be plenty, especially for the type of images I want to create. With the savings from the refurb kit, I added an L plate and a lensbaby 56mm Velvet to the cart We will see! The 14-30 is my shopping cart -- as soon as I play with the cam a bit and confirm I like it, that trigger will get pulled too
    Congratulations Jack for getting this wonderful camera and lens. I think you made the right and best choice!

    Peter
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