Site Sponsors
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 101 to 122 of 122

Thread: No reports here on the D3x

  1. #101
    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, California, USA
    Posts
    1,965
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Glen, good report. I wanted to ask you to be a little more specific about a couple of things. Firstly, every piece of evidence that I've seen points to the D3x and A900 being the same silicon, with different CFA and AA toppings, and Nikon doing a multiple sample read off of the sensor for their 14bit mode, thus resulting in the slower fps. Do you have evidence to contradict this? Have you shot the A900 and D3x side by side? Reports from dual users of both cameras say the D3x leads in dynamic range, whereas the A900 has much better spectral properties.

    Also, I know that the D3 is a stitched FF sensor, so is the full frame, single sensor stepper new? Thanks. -d

  2. #102
    ddk
    Guest

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Chris

    Of course one cannot determine anything quantitatively about the file quality from a jpeg posted on the web but there is an overall look to the images (see the mist from the tires of the truck) that approaches the rendition of MFDB. Most 35 DSLRs do not produce this look IMHO.

    But by all means draw your own conclusions or draw none at all. This is just my take and personal opinion. I am not trying to influence others as to the quality of the D3X, just stating what I see from it. What it does is make me want to try it for myself and draw a final conclusion from printing large.......as I always do.

    Cheers

    Woody
    Hi Woody,

    What you mention is interesting since I actually see it very differently to you. It might have to do with our different MF systems but the rendition of these images is pure Nikon and modern day Nikkor. The colors and the feel of these shots remind me of the D2x but with more resolution. Since I don't have the camera, I'm not making any quality judgements here, just that what I see shouts Nikon to me.

  3. #103
    Subscriber Member Jonathon Delacour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    454
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Glen, I can only echo the favorable responses from the other forum members for such a balanced report based on first-hand experience with the different systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by glennedens View Post
    The A900 and 5D2 are excellent values. Nikon clearly needs a D700x in the market soon, my guess is mid- to late-2010 at the same price point as the A900 and 5D2 will be at that time. It is interesting that the 24-mp sensor R&D will likely be well amortized in that same time-frame.
    Since mid-to-late-2010 is twelve to eighteen months away, I'm wondering whether Nikon can afford to wait that long before releasing a D700x. The various rumor mills are suggesting that the D400 is scheduled for release in mid-2009 with the d700x arriving in late-2009.

    Perhaps an alternative scenario that doesn't contradict your prediction is for a 15/16-mp D400 in mid-year followed by an 18-mp D800 towards the end of this year. But I can't help thinking that Nikon's failing to provide more than 12-mp in a D700-style body by the end of this year will make the A900 and 5D MkII extremely attractive to many current Nikon shooters, particularly if those long-awaited fast primes don't materialize.

  4. #104
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    32
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Cindy, Jono, Bondo, robmac,

    thank you for the kind comments, i have been lurking here (with about half a dozen posts) since October of last year. i really enjoy the fine images that everyone posts, very inspiring, and the great topics, i learn something every time i browse the forums.

    Glenn



    Quote Originally Posted by Cindy Flood View Post
    Glenn,
    Welcome to the forum. I appreciate such a thoughtful and informative report and look forward to more posts from you.

  5. #105
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon Delacour View Post
    But I can't help thinking that Nikon's failing to provide more than 12-mp in a D700-style body by the end of this year will make the A900 and 5D MkII extremely attractive to many current Nikon shooters, particularly if those long-awaited fast primes don't materialize.
    Sure, if you start from scratch with SLR or are not so price sensitive. The D700 still has a unique value proposition - better high ISO images, and you can use your investment in Nikon glass. At the price level of these cameras, owners have likely made an investment in glass. Also with Canon's recent history of technical problems a somewhat brand loyal Nikon user (like me) would be a bit skeptical towards switching to Canon. Remains the A900, but Sony is still a newcomer which might deter Nikon owners from switching over.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  6. #106
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    32
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Douglas,

    The Sony A900 and Nikon D3x sensors have different die markings (these are the part numbers and test probe pads for example) according to photographs of the two sensors (everyone may not know that the camera is typically rendered useless after the analysis process , they are produced in different batches, have different quality control procedures (not that one is better). The photosite array is identical between the two, geometry and read lines. They are run on the same production line, how different is hard to know without seeing the masks side-by-side or pay one of the reverse engineering companies like Chipworks to get in with the microscopes. (BTW the "mask" is the "negative" that is used to "print" the different layers of the "chip" or sensor for those not familiar with the terms and yes this is oversimplified).

    Most folks who have analyzed the design also believe that the analog to digital converters that Nikon is using are higher performance than the Sony design. Looking at the Nikon circuit boards it is pretty easy to tell who makes them of course the Sony design was aimed at an entirely different price point.

    I have not had the opportunity to shoot an A900. I hope to do that later this summer and hopefully have it for long enough to put it through all of the same detailed tests. It would be interesting to verify if the color response is that different and in what ways - the color filter arrays (CFA) are different so this is certainly likely, the firmware and read out play a big role as well.

    As you say the D3 sensor is stitched since it is produced in a factory that has a maximum lithography field size of 25mm by 33mm (it has two halves which are printed left side then right side, in two passes through the machine - for those not familiar with semiconductor stitching it is pretty much like stitching for panoramas but the alignment has to be incredibly accurate). My understanding is that the D3x and A900 sensors ARE stitched and are made on a photolithography system using two passes to get to the 36mm x 24mm needed for full-frame. 50mm x 50mm machines are becoming cost effective (for those not familiar with what these machines are they are basically big complicated microscopes acting as projectors and 50mm x 50mm is pretty much as big as they are going to be able to project in one pass) so this should further reduce the costs of the 24-megapixel FX sensor by increasing the throughput of the factory, allowing more wafers to be processed per hour which reduces their cost (each 8 inch wafer can make 20 full frame sensors and usually about 70 to 80 percent of them are usable).

    BTW Nikon holds about a 65 percent market share in the photolithography stepper and scanner machines used for manufacturing semiconductors of all kinds, including Intel's microprocessors. At last count they had shipped over 8,000 systems and there are only about 2,000 factories that can make semiconductors in the world. Nikon leads the market in 45 nanometer and 35 nanometer machines (this is how small a feature can be on the chip - a wire or a transistor, it is really small and at the state-of-the-art).

    -glenn

    (edited to correct the stitching comments)

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    Glen, good report. I wanted to ask you to be a little more specific about a couple of things. Firstly, every piece of evidence that I've seen points to the D3x and A900 being the same silicon, with different CFA and AA toppings, and Nikon doing a multiple sample read off of the sensor for their 14bit mode, thus resulting in the slower fps. Do you have evidence to contradict this? Have you shot the A900 and D3x side by side? Reports from dual users of both cameras say the D3x leads in dynamic range, whereas the A900 has much better spectral properties.

    Also, I know that the D3 is a stitched FF sensor, so is the full frame, single sensor stepper new? Thanks. -d
    Last edited by glennedens; 6th May 2009 at 01:14.

  7. #107
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    32
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Thank you Jonathon.

    Yes it is hard to imagine Nikon will do nothing but as Lars already pointed out the D700 is a fine camera and it is holding it's own in the marketplace.

    One great source of information on shipments is US Customs, it is public record of every product that is shipped into the US and how much duties are paid. The data is not as easy to get as it used to be and i have not seen any numbers since early this year when the Oct-Dec 08 numbers were released, however at that time the D700 was doing great. The A900 and 5D2 have come online in volume since then so it will be interesting to see the numbers.

    As I mentioned in my original too-long post, we are going to see a lot lower prices on 12- to 18-megapixel full-frame sensors in the near term so this could lead credibility to a sub 24-megapixel Nikon product rumor. Although with the A900 and the 5D2 at the sub-$3k price point i think Nikon would have a tough time meeting the market demand for a 24-mp lower cost camera with a 16 or 18-mp camera. Of course Sony and Canon are not standing still either. My bet is a really low cost D700 equivalent will be announced first, maybe that is the D400, say at 12-mp FX for under $1,000. That could stir up the market in an interesting way and stall off some pressure to do the D700x 24-mp head on competitor to the A900 and 5D2.

    One wonders why Nikon designs so many DX lenses

    Okay so we are getting pretty far off Guy's original prodding to get the D3x users to speak up

    Glenn

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon Delacour View Post
    Glen, I can only echo the favorable responses from the other forum members for such a balanced report based on first-hand experience with the different systems.

    Since mid-to-late-2010 is twelve to eighteen months away, I'm wondering whether Nikon can afford to wait that long before releasing a D700x. The various rumor mills are suggesting that the D400 is scheduled for release in mid-2009 with the d700x arriving in late-2009.

    Perhaps an alternative scenario that doesn't contradict your prediction is for a 15/16-mp D400 in mid-year followed by an 18-mp D800 towards the end of this year. But I can't help thinking that Nikon's failing to provide more than 12-mp in a D700-style body by the end of this year will make the A900 and 5D MkII extremely attractive to many current Nikon shooters, particularly if those long-awaited fast primes don't materialize.

  8. #108
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    No No all great data. Great stuff.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  9. #109
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    And all the time we still won't see canon every admitting that they need a 13-16 megapixel pro spec '3D'. Sigh...
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  10. #110
    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    474
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    198

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    "The D3x is worth every penny and i believe it has pretty much paid for itself in productivity and sheer joy of use. The images have a magic to them that is hard to describe, different than the D3 or D700."

    Thank you Glenn for these excellent reports, they are certainly not "too long"!
    The quotation above raises an interesting point that I haven't seen addressed in depth, namely the difference of the image quality (disregarding resolution) between the D3 and the D3x. Are there for instance obvious (or not so obvious) differences in colour reproduction, in the openness of the midrange (to use an old film expression), in the way the dynamic range varies over the visible spectrum, in the effect of the different AA-filters, in short the way the image is drawn by the two cameras.

    I have the D3 so I'm curious as to what I might gain (or loose) if I aquire the D3x. Since you've used both bodies extensively, your further thoughts on the subject would be much appreciated.

  11. #111
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    etrigan63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Earth, Sol System (near Miami, FL)
    Posts
    2,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Glenn,
    welcome to the forums. Great report - well thought out and very informative. I would have jumped in sooner but I've been processing images from a weekend recital. I have to get them uploaded tonight.

    The coming year will be an interesting one sensor-wise. We have Phase introducing the pixel-binning P40+, Leica's S2, and something in the 13-18Mp range rumored in the works from Canikon.

    Add to that Mamiya's new digital-only body (which will be co-opted by Phase within seconds of launch) which lowers the price-point-of-entry to MFD. From what I see, the two markets (top-end pro 35mm digital and MFD) are converging at a price-point. When that happens, the determining factor will be IQ vs. flexibility.

    Just my $0.02 (adjusted for inflation.)
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

  12. #112
    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, California, USA
    Posts
    1,965
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Quote Originally Posted by glennedens View Post
    Douglas,

    .....Most folks who have analyzed the design also believe that the analog to digital converters that Nikon is using are higher performance than the Sony design. Looking at the Nikon circuit boards it is pretty easy to tell who makes them of course the Sony design was aimed at an entirely different price point.

    I have not had the opportunity to shoot an A900. I hope to do that later this summer and hopefully have it for long enough to put it through all of the same detailed tests. It would be interesting to verify if the color response is that different and in what ways - the color filter arrays (CFA) are different so this is certainly likely, the firmware and read out play a big role as well.....
    I've encountered the opposite, and I believe that most think the sensors are the same. I know that Iliah Borg (pro shooter and raw converter designer,) who owns both cameras, has tested the D3x in 12bit mode vs. the A900, and has found them to be very close. The differences probably being attributed to CFA. It seems that the D3x is doing some very interesting things with sampling to achieve 14bits, as we know the ADCs are on the chip, although I don't doubt that the D3x has a cleaner path after the chip, and all of this leads to better DR than A900. As far as color, Iliah has found that the A900, like MFDB, doesn't use human eye curves for it's color response, but, rather, something closer to film response curves, resulting in better color separation. The A900 has better green separation than D3x/D3 (which are similar,) and better blue separation than Canon. The main problem with this, outside of high ISO being a bit noisier, is that ACR/LR wrecks A900 files. The advantage is less mushy grass vs. Nikon, and less mushy skin vs. Canon. (fwiw, D2x has better separation than D3x/D3, but still not at A900 levels.)

    Sorry to get so off topic, but I guess that I contend that the D3x doesn't have the best 35mm DSLR IQ, but rather one of the best, depending on whether you prefer a bit more DR** over better color separation. No matter how you slice it, the D3x is an AWESOME camera. I look forward to hearing about your A900 opinions in the future. Cheers. -d




    **Iliah has actually developed a firmware fix recommendation for Sony that he believes will get the A900 DR at or slightly past D3x levels, but who knows if Sony will listen?? Apparently, the A900's ADCs could use a little more pre-gain. That's why I shoot at ISO 320 to improve the shadows.

  13. #113
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fort Collins, Colorado
    Posts
    2,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Hi Woody,

    What you mention is interesting since I actually see it very differently to you. It might have to do with our different MF systems but the rendition of these images is pure Nikon and modern day Nikkor. The colors and the feel of these shots remind me of the D2x but with more resolution. Since I don't have the camera, I'm not making any quality judgements here, just that what I see shouts Nikon to me.
    David

    When I compare the look of the D3X to the D3 I see it as very different in color rendition. Looking at the shots from Moscow I don't see the overly green and yellow looks of the D3, D700 and the D2X previously. I find the D3X colors to be more natural but that is my eyes. You and others may find it very different however and I respect that. My MFDB is a Hassy H3DII-39 and of course I am not attempting to make a comparison until I can get my hands on the D3X and and print files from both. (Large of course)

    Woody

  14. #114
    Senior Member douglasf13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, California, USA
    Posts
    1,965
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    I'm not sure if maybe what your seeing is a WB thing or processing or something, but the color filtration of the D3 and D3x is nearly identical.

  15. #115
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,800
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    I agree with Douglas, the rendering of greens, particularly if using Capture NX 2, seems almost identical (given the same WB) between my D3x and D3/D700. I do find that rendering through ACR produces a similar yellow/green to that produced by Canon vs the more natural 'bluer' green that I much prefer and tend to see in the real world.

  16. #116
    Mort54
    Guest

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    To my surprise I bought a D3X last week when B&H briefly priced it below $7400. It should arrive tomorrow or Tuesday, just in time for an upcoming Yellowstone trip. I was one of those people who bitterly complained online about the D3X price. But over time my objections to the price have softened, due in large part to the comments of a number of photogs who's opinions I respect, who have been raving about the D3X IQ. So I caved :-)

    I've been using a P45+ for almost two years now, and a D3 since January, and I find myself reaching for the D3 almost exclusively these days. Other than resolution, where of course the P45+ excels, I find that the D3 delivers better mid-tone to highlight DR, better detail retrieval from shadows, and lower noise (I won't shoot the P45+ above ISO 200, and I prefer not to go above ISO 100). And of course the D3 provides much better usability, and a much better lens selection. Given that the D3X reportedly has even better DR than the D3 (at least at the lower ISOs), plus a relatively weak AA filter, I'm expecting it to drive the final nail in my P45s coffin.

    Regards,
    Mort.

  17. #117
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Quote Originally Posted by Mort54 View Post
    To my surprise I bought a D3X last week
    Gotta love that. Oops, a D3x.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  18. #118
    Mort54
    Guest

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Vinberg View Post
    Gotta love that. Oops, a D3x.
    Yes :-) What I meant, of course, was that I was really bent out of shape over Nikon's D3X pricing policy and for the longest time vowed to boycott the D3X for that reason. What surprised me is that I've finally gotten to the point that the price no longer pi$$es me off quite as much, allowing me to focus more on the other aspects of it. At least that's how I've rationalized it :-)

  19. #119
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Or justified it, the rationale was already there. Congrats, let us know what it's like with the P45+ and D3 as perspective.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  20. #120
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    419
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Thanks for earlier comments on my pics!

    Do we still post pics taken with D3x here or they should go to the common Nikon pics thread?

  21. #121
    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Pratamnak
    Posts
    9,336
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2157

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexLF View Post
    Thanks for earlier comments on my pics!

    Do we still post pics taken with D3x here or they should go to the common Nikon pics thread?
    I believe that is entirely up to you. You can even start your own threads if you have photos covering particular themes. People here are friendly as well as understanding, particularly as long as they can view nice photos and discuss camera gear

  22. #122
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fort Collins, Colorado
    Posts
    2,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: No reports here on the D3x

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasf13 View Post
    I'm not sure if maybe what your seeing is a WB thing or processing or something, but the color filtration of the D3 and D3x is nearly identical.
    I use C1 so this is a potential source of difference. Anyway, it is subjective and my eyes see what they want to see I guess. JMHO

    Woody

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •