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Thread: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

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    Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Another fun Photokina surprise:

    http://dpreview.com/news/1009/10092129sigmasd1.asp

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    And what a return! Let us hope that SD1 becomes available much sooner than it took SD15 to.
    Osman

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    Senior Member Will's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    That new sensor should stir things up a bit!
    Dare I hope that it will turn up in the DP1-2 cameras before to long.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Very interesting indeed. I was glad to see that it wasn't the old 4,7mpix sensor any more... And the sensor seems to be a bit bigger too.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Oh... and a real viewfinder. 0.98% coverage and 0.95x magnification. Can I have this with F-mount please? Pretty please??

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Definitely, Sigma raised the crop factor from 1.7 to 1.5.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Seems to be great news!

    I do hope this sensor will find entry in the DP1 and DP2 series.

    I also do hope that Sigma will finally be able to produce a real FF sensor (36x24) - at least a dream

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    And a couple of updted OS lenses to go with it

    120-300 f2.8 and 150mm Macro

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    I must admit that I'm rather fascinated (and very surprised) by this launch. I've always liked the output from the Foveon sensor, but too little resolution, mediocre camera bodies and the Sigma mount have stopped med from following my lust. With the two first obstacles out of the way, this may be an option again, with a couple of good lenses. I'm really looking forward to the reviews of this one.

    Another side of this is obviously that Sigma shows that they are not giving up on this. They must have invested a considerable amount in the new sensor and in the new body, so they are probably going to stay in this game for at least a few more years.

    PS. Oh, and the two new stabilised lenses. Both of them among the best Sigma has to offer. More temptations

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Huge news! A new generation of a sensor, in less than 2 years since Sigma acquired Foveon. They've beat my expectations with regards to delivery (assuming that they're close to doing a production run). The sensor has a 5 um pitch, so it's comparable to all the other Bayer sensors out there. It'll be interested to see if the sensor supports binning (the SD10 and SD14 did, but the True processor cameras don't). Speaking of True processors, they're jamming in 2 of these in the camera, and they're leveraging parallel processing (Foveon has a patent on that).

    It would be interesting to imagine this chip in the compact series. It might not fit (especially with the two True II chips), so perhaps they'd scale it back to a 1.7 crop (4200 x 2800 x 3). And if this camera sells, I see no reason why they wouldn't go with a fuller frame option (either FF or 1.2 crop). Rumored price is 7D territory ($1700 for body?), and this should outperform every APS-C camera out there with regards to image quality.

    And for those who thought the SD14/15 doesn't have enough resolution, I've never had any issues printing 12 x 18" from my files. This camera is a huge jump (1.5x linear resolution), so I'm going to need a bigger printer...

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    So this is equivalent to a 15MP Bayer sensor resolution then?
    -Dragos
    Panasonic GH1/G1, Canon FTb(n)/F-1, Mamiya C330F/RB67 Pro SD, Chamonix 45N-2, Nikon F5 + Assorted Lenses

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by photoSmart42 View Post
    So this is equivalent to a 15MP Bayer sensor resolution then?
    No, it should be better than 15MP Bayer. Exactly how much better remains to be seen, but if well executed it should challenge and possibly exceed the A900 and D3x for sheer resolution.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Could be great. I hope they can make a camera that is worthy....along with software that doesn't choke.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    My experience with Foveon chips is from the DP2s, which produced very good resolution definitely comparable to a D700, although "only "3x5Mpixels".

    So the resulting resolution from the Sigma SW was around 18MP. If this is somehow true also for the new chip, then the effective resolution resulting should be at least about 50MP. Which is more than one would expect from such a small APS-C chip.

    The issues so far with Foveon is the limited RAW support. If C1 would support that files then it would become a real killer (or at least more than serious competitor) in terms of IQ.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    The DP2S is a 3x4.7MP design. In general, that sensor is thought to be roughly equivalent to a 8-12 MP CFA (depending on the glass, the AA filter in front of the sensor, etc).

    A reasonable guess for resolution (as in resolving line pairs) is that this camera will compare favorably with 30-36 MP CFA cameras. In an APS-C body, that's pretty darn good. With regards to RAW support, the current version of SPP is pretty good (and fast). If there is more acceptance of the X3 cameras, perhaps we'll see Apple and Microsoft support the format in their OS (that's what C1 depends on, I believe).

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by Kofronj View Post
    The DP2S is a 3x4.7MP design. In general, that sensor is thought to be roughly equivalent to a 8-12 MP CFA (depending on the glass, the AA filter in front of the sensor, etc).

    A reasonable guess for resolution (as in resolving line pairs) is that this camera will compare favorably with 30-36 MP CFA cameras. In an APS-C body, that's pretty darn good. With regards to RAW support, the current version of SPP is pretty good (and fast). If there is more acceptance of the X3 cameras, perhaps we'll see Apple and Microsoft support the format in their OS (that's what C1 depends on, I believe).
    Thanks for the clarification WRT resolution. Pretty intriguing what Foveon currently can offer (will offer).

    If Apple supports the X RAWs then you will be able to use Aperture and Phocus (Hasselblad) for RAW processing, but unfortunately NOT C1. And Windows does not support RAWs as Aplle does, so Phocus on Windows does not support any 3rd party RAWs and Aperture runs only on Apple.

    Lightroom is an alternative, but I hate LR and will not use it anymore. Got so much used to the others SW packages.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Oh, I was having a discussion with the Phase One folks around their acquisition of Expression Media (the DAM formerly known as iView Multimedia Pro), and they indicated that the issue with support for the x3f was based around the OS not supporting the RAW.

    Lightroom has too many sliders for me. I've never used Aperture because of the issues with the raw. I stick with Sigma Photo Pro for RAWs, and then Lightzone if I need to finish for printing.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Looking forward to sample images and reviews of a production camera. The prints look pretty good.

    http://www.rytterfalk.com/2010/09/22...cretly-filmed/
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Thank you for sharing this link, Carl. The best news for me was that it could hit the market early next year!
    Osman

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Wow!! Very excited about this news.......... I'm sure it will sell like hotcakes if priced right.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Latest from Sigma is "early 2011" and they are working towards producing a full frame sensor.

    I recently bought a DP2s to see what the current sensor can do and I was quite pleased with the raw file quality, so now I'm encouraged to see how a larger sensor will perform. I'm not that thrilled with the DP2s camera performance, but I'm willing to work around the warts for the nice files (just need more pixels!).

    Here are some 1200x1200 pixel 100% crops from a few recent shots - no resizing or additional output sharpening applied.





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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Carl, thanks for sharing. The Foveon sensor is unrivaled in color reproduction imho. The resolution is insufficient, I agree. SD1 seems to be the way out of this limitation. As for the full frame option, I am not sure: Even Leica has problems with their M9, it seems.
    Your posts are magnificent, the last one has the finest greens I've seen.
    Best,
    Osman

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by otumay View Post
    Carl, thanks for sharing. The Foveon sensor is unrivaled in color reproduction imho. The resolution is insufficient, I agree. SD1 seems to be the way out of this limitation. As for the full frame option, I am not sure: Even Leica has problems with their M9, it seems.
    Your posts are magnificent, the last one has the finest greens I've seen.
    Best,
    Osman
    Thank you Osman. I agree that Foveon colors are excellent and very accurate. If the upcoming SD1 performs well then the 15 MP sensor would be more than adequate for my needs.
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    SD1 is now listed on the B&H website and at least on the radar .

    SD1
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    SD1 is now listed on the B&H website and at least on the radar .

    SD1

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Carl:

    The greens in ur last image are great. Any post-processing, or is the image straight out of the camera????

    Thanks.

    Martin

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
    Carl:

    The greens in ur last image are great. Any post-processing, or is the image straight out of the camera????

    Thanks.

    Martin
    Martin,

    No color adjustments made. Just batch processed the raw files first through Adobe DNG Converter and then through CornerFix (removes the cyan/green corner color cast in the DP2s files) before importing into LR3 where exposure and capture sharpening were done. Cropped and converted to jpeg from LR to the web.
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Let me contribute to this thread with a photograph of a close friend and his daughter, taken with SD14 and 30mm/1.4. Converted to 16-bit TIFF with Sigma PhotoPro and converted to jpeg with PS CS4 and Color EfexPro with no color adjustment. Foveon is mean, ladies and gentlemen, don't you think?
    Osman


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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    [QUOTE=otumay;256587]Let me contribute to this thread with a photograph of a close friend and his daughter, taken with SD14 and 30mm/1.4. Converted to 16-bit TIFF with Sigma PhotoPro and converted to jpeg with PS CS4 and Color EfexPro with no color adjustment. Foveon is mean, ladies and gentlemen, don't you think?
    Osman

    Osman,

    Agree. Beautiful colors and skin tones in the warm lighting.
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    I find that the Foveon sensor shines the most when looking at the photograph 100% zoomed in - the fine details and sharpness it can extract is quite stunning. I actually had quite a bit of difficulty nailing the color cast - mostly turning things into B&W. In any case, I am still very much looking forward to this camera.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by roanjoh View Post
    I find that the Foveon sensor shines the most when looking at the photograph 100% zoomed in - the fine details and sharpness it can extract is quite stunning. I actually had quite a bit of difficulty nailing the color cast - mostly turning things into B&W. In any case, I am still very much looking forward to this camera.
    Agree. Have you tried using CornerFix to get rid of the color cast? Works great for my files. Just batch convert your raw files to dng with Adobe DNG Converter and then batch run the dngs through CornerFix and your files will be free of color casts. You can easily profile your own camera by taking one shot of a gray card or blank white wall and use that image to create the profile for CornerFix. You can download CornerFix at the link below and it is free thanks to the creator Sandy Fleishman.

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/cornerfix/
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    If sigma can team up with Epson and launch a version of the SD1 in the RD1 rangefinder body with at least 2.7 inch screen at the back.

    That would be awesome!

    The last RD1 has a APS-C(1.5x) sensor, so is the upcoming SD1.

    Wouldn't that be worth waiting?

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Definitely. I'd add a Leica M mount adapter to the wishlist.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by otumay View Post
    Definitely. I'd add a Leica M mount adapter to the wishlist.
    The Epson is M mount, isn't it?

    Oh, and they can skip the screen on mine. Chimping is for chimps

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    The Epson is M mount, isn't it?
    Yep.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Osman I think Epson is listening!

    I hope they roll out a new RD-1 with the APS-C foveon sensor.

    http://www.1001noisycameras.com/2010...pson-said.html
    http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...ws_304018.html
    Last edited by docrjay; 28th November 2010 at 14:04.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by docrjay View Post
    Osman I think Epson is listening!

    I hope they roll out a new RD-1 with the APS-C foveon sensor.

    http://www.1001noisycameras.com/2010...pson-said.html
    http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk...ws_304018.html
    I'm waiting, I'm waiting...
    Thanks for giving me hope, docrjay!

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???


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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    I'm not so sure about this being a SD1 preview. Carl likes to screw around at times, and you'll note that it's titled SD ?.

    My guess is that he's just having fun with his SD15.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???


  41. #41
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    Looking forward to sample images and reviews of a production camera. The prints look pretty good.

    http://www.rytterfalk.com/2010/09/22...cretly-filmed/


    You can tell from that??

  42. #42
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Hi Carl, may I ask how you convert the RAW files to DNG?

    Just batch convert your raw files to dng with Adobe DNG Converter
    When I used Adobe DNG Converter, it could not read the X3F files on the camera, nor the TIFF output files. I tried selecting Adobe RGB color space in SPP, it still output to TIFF or jpeg files.

    Just got my DP2S after reading this thread (and a few others) and is enjoying the film like images!

    Gary

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by emyyl View Post
    Hi Carl, may I ask how you convert the RAW files to DNG?



    When I used Adobe DNG Converter, it could not read the X3F files on the camera, nor the TIFF output files. I tried selecting Adobe RGB color space in SPP, it still output to TIFF or jpeg files.

    Just got my DP2S after reading this thread (and a few others) and is enjoying the film like images!

    Gary
    In the preferences pane of Adobe DNG Converter set compatibility to ACR version 4.6 or later.
    Carl
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    I am definitely interested in this camera, and (to Jorgen) there is a company called (!) sigma cum laude that converts the Sigma mount to Nikon, Leica-R, and Canon—so plenty of choice there.

    Downside is manual aperture stopdown; I am thinking one or two of the best Sigma primes might be the way to go.

    Now, if it had the 3-stop ND filter ( la Fuji x-100) I might think Leica-R...

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    I meant to note that the conversions are reversable, too, which is very nice. The reason I am inclining to the Leica conversion is simply the excellence of the Leica-R lenses, most of which I have owned (grrrr) and of course they have aperture rings... The G Nikkors, while fine lenses to be sure, do not have these, so can only be used wide open.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    This site gives a pretty good overview of the conversion options for the SA mount. Interesting that the Sigma SA mount is mechanically the same as Pentax K mount but with the electronics of the Canon EF. A hybrid.
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Another SD1 teaser, with sample image.

    http://www.sigma-sd.com/SD1/leaflet.html
    Last edited by scho; 8th February 2011 at 19:42. Reason: fix link
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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Lovely.

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    I actually cannot find the SD1 any longer on the Sigma sites. Anything happened, or am I looking to the wrong sites?

    Also I would be interested if the rumors are right that Olympus is looking for a Foveon sensor (SD1 type with modified size of course) in their Pro level 43 and M43 cameras?

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    Re: Sigma SD1: Foveon returns from the dead???

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I actually cannot find the SD1 any longer on the Sigma sites. Anything happened, or am I looking to the wrong sites?
    http://www.sigma-sd.com/SD1/index.html

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