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Thread: New gig, four thirds micro

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    So it's only the lens which is open standard? I thought Riley was referring to the entire system including the sensor/camera size.
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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    So it's only the lens which is open standard? I thought Riley was referring to the entire system including the sensor/camera size.
    The whole system, including lens mount, lens to camera communication, sensor size and format etc.) is an open standard, but I used the lens example, since that is the only part that has been supplied from anyone outside the Olympus/Panasonic/Leica sphere. Those three apparently cooperate so closely, that it doesn't really matter if it's an open standard or not.

    Should Sigma decide to launch a 4/3 DSLR (something that would have given the Foveon sensor a big boost), that would obviously change things a bit, and even more so if Fuji does the same.

    But the concept is probably of most interest for suppliers who "fit in", who has something that isn't there already, but lack their own complete system.

    Surprisingly, image stabilisation is not a part of the standard, and even though the IS in the PanaLeica lenses will work on an Olympus body, not all of the functionality will be available.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The whole system, including lens mount, lens to camera communication, sensor size and format etc.) is an open standard, but I used the lens example, since that is the only part that has been supplied from anyone outside the Olympus/Panasonic/Leica sphere. Those three apparently cooperate so closely, that it doesn't really matter if it's an open standard or not.

    Should Sigma decide to launch a 4/3 DSLR (something that would have given the Foveon sensor a big boost), that would obviously change things a bit, and even more so if Fuji does the same.

    But the concept is probably of most interest for suppliers who "fit in", who has something that isn't there already, but lack their own complete system.

    Surprisingly, image stabilisation is not a part of the standard, and even though the IS in the PanaLeica lenses will work on an Olympus body, not all of the functionality will be available.
    Hi Ben
    Hmm - it isn't really 'open standard' as in the Linux development community - more like a consortium, but the idea is that everyone can join, and there are clear definitions for sensor size / lens mount / lens telecentricity.

    Incidentally Jorgen - you're right about image stabilisation - but it's worth mentioning that the Olympus E5xx (eg 520) and the E3 both have very good 'in body' stabilisation - it's only the E4xx series which don't

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    it isnt software Jono

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Interesting format/concept! The flange to film distance of the micro 4/3 is 20mm, Leica M ~26mm, adapters M to micro 4/3????? With a 6mm gap, maybe a reader for 6 bit codes?
    With a 2x crop factor and EVF with focus confirmation you will get a 270mm f3.4 APO out of the 135, throw in vibration reduction and you may have something there.
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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    it isnt software Jono
    Surely it is. . . . . isn't it?

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Hi,
    There is a very informative interview on this topic with Masakazu San from Olympus at fourthirdsphoto.com
    Regards,
    Alfred

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by alfred_uy View Post
    Hi,
    There is a very informative interview on this topic with Masakazu San from Olympus at fourthirdsphoto.com
    Regards,
    Alfred
    Very interesting interview. Thanks for sharing

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Interview with Ogawa Haruo at dpreview.

    Hi there - I couldn't find the interview on fourthirdsphoto.com, but here is one one dpreview.

    Part 3 has some mention of making it compatable with m mount lenses which is interesting (I still find the concept of my 75 'cron as an f2 150mm to be rather exciting!).

    Link to Dpreview thread

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Interview with Ogawa Haruo at dpreview.

    Hi there - I couldn't find the interview on fourthirdsphoto.com, but here is one one dpreview.
    It's gone. It was a translation of an interview they had found somewhere else, so they may have bumped into some copyright issue.

    It's the same one on dpreview

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    I am looking forward putting my 9.8mm f/1.8 Tegea monster (M-mount) to use on this. With my Epson R-D1s, the "micro" 4/3 is a welcome development.

    20mm camera registry? Fabulous!

    I hope, Olympus will also supply an M to M4/3 adapter. Otherwise, I will have cobble one out myself.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I am looking forward putting my 9.8mm f/1.8 Tegea monster (M-mount) to use on this. With my Epson R-D1s, the "micro" 4/3 is a welcome development.

    20mm camera registry? Fabulous!

    I hope, Olympus will also supply an M to M4/3 adapter. Otherwise, I will have cobble one out myself.
    Ah, Vivek
    you might be able to make a good business out of the 'cobbling'. I'm sure there will be lots of people who want one. I'm more interested in my 75 'cron becoming a 150mm f2!

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    I am sure there will be a variety of adapters from HK/PRC in time, Jono.

    I have the 50/0.95 Canon as well.

    Most interesting would be the tiny lenses, C-V 15mm, W-Nikkor-C 2.5cm and the like.

    Anyone has any ideas when these cameras will debut?

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Vivek, i think it will be at PK in Cologne, thats Sept 23
    at this point there are cameras around, but those that have them are keeping pretty tight due to NDA. They are saying the lenses are tiny, that the EVF will surprise us, and that the CDAF is better than we are used to. And finally that release is very soon

    Im thinking Nokton 35/1.2 would be a knockout portrait lens

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Thanks, Riley. I will have to see if I can schedule a trip to Koeln.

    This camera registry (plus the Live view) is by far the most exciting thing in the recent years.

    Yup, Nokton 35/1.2 with a 2X crop!

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Interview with Ogawa Haruo at dpreview.

    Hi there - I couldn't find the interview on fourthirdsphoto.com, but here is one one dpreview.

    Part 3 has some mention of making it compatable with m mount lenses which is interesting (I still find the concept of my 75 'cron as an f2 150mm to be rather exciting!).

    Link to Dpreview thread

    DCW: Have you thought of building a camera that uses the 4/3 sensor, but without interchangeable lenses?

    OGAWA: We haven’t considered it in particular. Of course, there may be talk of using a 4/3 standard sensor in a compact camera, but we aren’t thinking of defining that kind of product as part of the M4/3 standard.


    Oh dear, lets hope they don't miss the boat trying to build for the SLR crowd, waste of time, I really was looking forward to p&s sized cameras not mini SLR's.
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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    Vivek, i think it will be at PK in Cologne, thats Sept 23
    at this point there are cameras around, but those that have them are keeping pretty tight due to NDA. They are saying the lenses are tiny, that the EVF will surprise us, and that the CDAF is better than we are used to. And finally that release is very soon

    Im thinking Nokton 35/1.2 would be a knockout portrait lens
    This sounds very promising that releases are soon and not vaporware as some of the flamewars elsewhere have suggested. I did hear that we would be surprised by the advances in EVFs. This is shaping up to be a rather exciting fall.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    Im thinking Nokton 35/1.2 would be a knockout portrait lens
    Another one that would be excellent as a portrait lens on this system is the 175g Nokton 40mm f/1.4. A third of the weight and a third of the price of the 35/1.2.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Intriguing idea, but what would the adapter need in it to transmit info to the camera? M-lenses have no chips and cannot report aperture or focus data electronically. This would be a manual-only affair. I don't know if m4/3 will support that.
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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Unfortunately M lenses would require stop down metering which is a pain. The manual focus issue my not be so important if the EVF is decent.

    Martin

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    DCW: Have you thought of building a camera that uses the 4/3 sensor, but without interchangeable lenses?

    OGAWA: We havenít considered it in particular. Of course, there may be talk of using a 4/3 standard sensor in a compact camera, but we arenít thinking of defining that kind of product as part of the M4/3 standard.


    Oh dear, lets hope they don't miss the boat trying to build for the SLR crowd, waste of time, I really was looking forward to p&s sized cameras not mini SLR's.
    Hi Ben
    the point is the registry distance - i.e. very short (shorter than m mount). As I understand it, this means that you DO get your P&S sized camera (think G9), but with tiny interchangeable lenses (think CV 15).
    It really isn't meant to be a mini SLR - by removing the mirror box and moving the lens back, it should give us the best of both worlds.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by etrigan63 View Post
    Intriguing idea, but what would the adapter need in it to transmit info to the camera? M-lenses have no chips and cannot report aperture or focus data electronically. This would be a manual-only affair. I don't know if m4/3 will support that.
    It will be the same as with any other non-4/3 lens on 4/3, stop-down metering and manual focus. My most used lens on the E-1 was the OM 100mm f/2.8, no problems there. But as Martin mentioned, it all depends of how good the EVF is.

    The last time I decided not to like EVFs, was after trying the Minolta A2, which was supposed to have one that was much better than anything else. A few years have passed since then, so I guess it's time to make another try, but I don't expect focusing at f/1.4 to be easy.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Jorgen, I don't think these cams will have a view finder. It is only going to be the TFT scree on the back of the cameras. Use liveview for focusing/framing.

    Stop down metering has never been a problem for me with any RF cams. It isn't going to be a problem here either.

    Now, if they offer a swivel TFT screen...

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jorgen, I don't think these cams will have a view finder. It is only going to be the TFT scree on the back of the cameras. Use liveview for focusing/framing.

    Stop down metering has never been a problem for me with any RF cams. It isn't going to be a problem here either.

    Now, if they offer a swivel TFT screen...
    Hi Vivek
    I reckon you'll find some with an EVF, and some models with just an LCD, I suppose some kind of linked optical viewfinder isn't beyond the bounds of possibility.

    I'd think a swivel screen likely - although, having both the E3 and the D700, the live view seems possible without it, even at quite acute angles.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Well, that just means more choices, Jono!

    I can't wait to get my hands on one (anyone of them)!

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Well, that just means more choices, Jono!

    I can't wait to get my hands on one (anyone of them)!
    You and me both . . . as long as they really are small

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    In the interview the guy definatly mentions a viewfinder, can't say I'll be too sorry as long as they keep the camera size down.

    Jono, I think you are being a bit optimistic, the touted figures for lens shrinkage are nowhere near pocket sized when attached to the camera. I so desperate for a decent p&s!
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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Dont Sigma already have one of these on sale?I supose not,whats the difference please?

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    The Sigma is a single focal length with a rather slow lens. The implementation is also rather weak by all accounts. I think we can expect swivel screens, anti-shake, interchangeable lenses, etc.
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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Jono, I think you are being a bit optimistic, the touted figures for lens shrinkage are nowhere near pocket sized when attached to the camera. I so desperate for a decent p&s!
    Hi Ben
    You may be right, but the contact I had who was at the launch used the words 'astonishingly small' - so here's hoping I'm right and not you!

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    It "appears" to me that for once sigma is ahead of this particular game.Personally Ive not been impressed by the 4:3 sensor in either higher iso(nor the sigma)or more importantly for me dynamic range,where the foveon scores pretty well.If the fuji s5 sensor was available to be put into one of these creations then that might just be some thing.
    Last edited by nei1; 20th August 2008 at 08:59. Reason: repetition

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    I really cant agree about Sigma for the stated reasons, its higher iso performance is quite lacking, and DP1 has a lot less going for it in lens optimisation. What it does have is an image acuity i find quite likeable, even if somewhat spatially limited.

    One bit of information that has surfaced, is that neither Panasonic or Olympus are stating who the partners are to this format, which is interesting b/se i dont see what the issue would be, unless negotiations are in tow with other companies. I wonder who it is....

    Leica, who might have a kindred interest; Fuji, who are about to ditch dSLRs....

    Another thing they wont answer is if a 'pro' version is in the offing. I read into this that there isnt, but there might be...
    Last edited by Riley; 20th August 2008 at 09:15.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Riley View Post
    Another thing they wont answer is if a 'pro' version is in the offing. I read into this that there isnt, but there might be...
    A "pro" version would be a smart move from Olympus, if they can afford to develop one. Except for the rather expensive M8, there are no compact pro cameras with interchangeable lenses, so such a camera would be absolutely alone in its niche.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    A "pro" version would be a smart move from Olympus, if they can afford to develop one. Except for the rather expensive M8, there are no compact pro cameras with interchangeable lenses, so such a camera would be absolutely alone in its niche.
    HI Jorgen
    I completely agree - on the same principle as the E1 or E3 - weathersealed, metal body, weathersealed lenses. Small and 'nice'.
    I think it would sell like hot cakes (would to me anyway).
    If Leica haven't joined in this one, they must be bonkers!

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    yep, my mind adjusts to an almost 2/3 scale OM1, the wide and normal lenses would be tiny, roughly 2/3 OM or a bit less.

    I dont think the market for a pro version would be great, but what it suggests is that the plainer cameras could/should feature an amount of manual control, perhaps not much different to early SLRs excepting a program function.

    When i look at my Pentax 110 Auto cameras and associated lenses, which has a film size around the mFT sensor size, i can only wonder if the lenses are nearly as tiny, but i guess they need AF motors as well.

    As an aside, Canon have responded that they wont be getting involved with the micro end of the industry.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Where did they say that Riley? Not that I'm surprised...
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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Where did they say that Riley? Not that I'm surprised...
    hi Ben
    http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/c...5d2_3d_7d.html

    Canon gave an interesting interview in China this week (PCP)
    (original page http://www.pcpop.com/doc/0/320/320998.shtml )
    We were kindly sent this English version (and notes)

    Canon has no plans to join the Micro 4/3 industry at the moment. Canon has different sized sensors already, and users have different systems. Most of them don't want to invest for another new system.

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    Re: New gig, four thirds micro

    Interesting but rather disappointing in a way, I think competition in this market could only have been a good thing, I would have loved all the manufacturers getting into a huge fight over the large sensor compact market, we could only have benefited.
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