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Thread: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

  1. #51
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    The choice of 20 mm Pancake lens is a lttle gutsy. It is really a great focal length for indoor, and street use. The original Rollei 35 had a 40 mm lens, and I found it to be very useful for a small, truely pocketable camera.

    I must comment on Jorgen's comment on weight, and heat.

    I was in Mali two years ago, and I was using a Canon 20D with a 24-105 mm L lens. We had just climbed up 2 flights of stairs (rapidly- for me) in temperatures of 100 to 110 degrees F in Djenne across from the famous mud mosque after moving through the crowded Monday market. I became light headed, and was very close to heat stroke. My friends quickly cooled me off with water (on my head). After this experience, I have been on the lookout for a small, light, good quality camera which would give high quality images. I have looked at numerous high end P+S cameras and have not been impressed. Perhaps this m 4/3 concept will be what I am looking for.

    I have reservations about the contrast sensitivity AF working accurately, and fast enough (shutter lag), and the quality, and responsiveness of the EVF.

    I will look carefully at this system, realizing that the body is only version 1.0, and may be joined by other, more advanced, and smaller bodies, and higher speced lenses.

    Martin
    Last edited by Martin S; 15th September 2008 at 04:55.

  2. #52
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Terry,
    Agree with your comments 100%.

    And neither of these gentleman's calculations are correct
    Jorgen, you overestimated the weight of two G1's w/ batteries and the two zooms. It's only 1295 grams!! Grand total with the 7-14mm, pancake and macro = 2195g.

    Ben, ONE 5D with the lenses and extender you mentioned = 3360 grams. TWO bodies w/ batteries brings it up to 4255g.

    Let's get real here ... obviously the Panny kit will be much lighter and smaller.
    You can argue about IQ all day long. I'd be willing to bet the Panny's will be good enough for 99% of what most people need.
    Regards,
    Joan

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    I didn't realise that Jorgen had written 2 bodies, my mistake. Still know which option I would take! It's just not enough of a difference yet. Please give us a pocketable camera Oly!
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  4. #54
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Just pulling your leg a bit, Ben. I can't afford the 5D option, even if I could carry it. So, for me, the G1 is lookin' good. If Oly comes up with an even smaller, pocketable option, I will be looking seriously at that, too!

    Edit:

    PS, I really think the slams against 4/3 IQ are overstated by a long shot. There's more to IQ than just high ISO noise. The Oly and Pana 4/3 cameras are capable of some breathtaking pictures. It's the person behind the camera that makes whatever kit they have (and can afford) sing.
    Last edited by Joan; 15th September 2008 at 07:03.
    Regards,
    Joan

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Not to nitpick but:

    a)Jorgen had 2 bodies in his list
    b)the filter size on the 17-40 is 77mm vs. 52mm on the G1 kit lens (see my link to the picture in my post above) that is a huge bulk difference
    b)the 5D setup is more than $4000 or about quadruple the cost of the G1
    c)and I would bet for 90% of what people shoot you won't have quadruple the IQ
    d) and it doesn't include a macro
    e) and it doesn't include a fast prime
    f) and the 70-200 with a 2x extender becomes an f/8 lens. What about AF performance, viewfinder brightness and corner sharpness?
    g) and in spite of the 70-200 f/4's relative compactness, it's still a big lens on a big camera

    The Panasonic alternative gives an amazing degree of flexibility. I will be able to leave the bulk of the gear at the hotel, and carry just one body with one lens, weighing around 600g, or I can take it all.

    I'm sure there will be a 70-300 at some point as well, since it's a popular zoom range. Then I will be able to do BIF and airshows as well, although I will look slightly silly next to a guy with a 5D and a 600mm f/5.6

    The M4/3 will never be my only system, but for certain purposes, it will be very, very nice

    Oh, and I can't wait to try my Nikkor 500mm f/8 reflex on this thing

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    I did mention the 50mm macro in my list Jorgen but just for you and add about $70 for the 50mm 1.8!

    I could have mentioned the 70-300 IS instead if you want a lighter option! I was just messing about with your figures, it's the concept I partially disagree with.

    Thing is that for travel and street you want a camera that really can do anything you will want when you don't have access to your gear cupboard back home. As such high ISO really is important as well as fast lenses and enough resolution to crop. If you want landscape or studio then high ISO isn't a big deal, if you want street and indoors which are often very relevant to travel photography then you really do want a clean iso 800 and a fast lens because it can make the difference between getting the photo or not getting it period as you don't get the chance to go back and do it again!

    I tested a E420 out a while back and the quality wasn't there at iso 800, neither was the tonality pleasing to me. As such it didn't qualify as a street camera. My 5D is big but with a 50mm 1.4 gives me incredible quality, fast AF and useable ISO up to 1600 and can be pushed further. On a shoulder strap it really isn't that big a deal. What I want is a pocket camera with better IQ than the current range for when I need a carry anywhere camera. If I want a serious setup for street I'm afraid the 4/3 chip doesn't cut it as yet because it just doesn't have the vesatility needed to shoot in anything but good light.

    This picture was shot in a dark alleyway, f2 @ iso 800 some time after sunset, it makes an incredible 18X12" or even larger. Couldn't have done it with a slow lens (there is a tiny bit of subject movement anyway) or lesser iso. The picture below that was shot on a bus leaving Jerusalem using a 7 megapixel p&s. The image quality at iso 800 is truly awful, can't print it bigger than native, there just isn't any detail. For the first photo genre I still need a serious camera, for the 2nd, when I don't have a serious camera on me, I could do with something that would give me enlargeable quality and 4/3 would do - but in a pocket sized solution. If I wouldn't have the 5D on my shoulder than its unlikely that I would have any other camera there, however dimunative. In a little p&s pouch on my belt is an entirely different concept.




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  7. #57
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Jorgen,

    A Canon 5D, 17-40L, 50mm Macro, 70-200 f4L IS, 2X Extender gives 17-400mm on FF for 2590g. The image quality will trounce this little pany.
    Until I found a sharp copy of the 100-400L, I used a 70-200/4 non-IS with a 2x converter on the 5D. It had decent IQ, and I know the IS version is sharper. However, as you know, an f/4 lens with a 2x TC will not AF on a 5D unless one tapes the pins or uses a TC that doesn't pass along the aperture info. Assuming one does this, the AF is still miserable. I suspect it would be as miserable with the IS version since the non IS version without the TC has one of the fastest, most sure AF I've ever noted on a zoom. Thus, I think one might miss more shots relying on 5D focus with an effectively f/8 lens than one would miss with the little pany and it's 200mm (400mm FOV) f/5.6 zoom.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Ben,
    Sorry, I didn't see that you included the 50 Macro, but that lens is almost 1.5 stops slower than the Panasonic pancake, and almost 0.5 stops slower than the Zuiko 50mm f/2.0 macro, partly killing off some of the high ISO advantage of the 5D.

    There are things to be said for both options, and a fast lens and high ISO is often useful. The fast lens is already on the Panasonic roadmap, while we have to see what the high ISO is like. It will probably not be as nice as on a 5D or a D700, but on the other hand, I regularly sell images taken with my old E-1 at ISO 800. As for resolution, 12MP mostly does it for me, and the distance up to the 5D isn't very long for any practical use. What the new 5D will bring, remains to be seen.

    Here's an example taken with the E-1 at ISO 800, notorious for grainy high ISO, hand-held at 11mm and 1/13s, which was only possible because of the low level of in-camera vibrations, partly due to the small mirror/shutter. The M4/3 cameras obviously have no problems with vibrations, since they have neither mirror nor shutter:



    There are other sides to this that are highly individual. Mostly, when I'm out and about, I want a camera that looks small and "amateurish". It looks less pretentious, and it's easier to approach people without giving them the feeling that they will end up on the front-page of Time Magazine. The articulated LCD (and no shutter sound) also makes it possible to take photos from difficult angles and/or without being noticed.

    A few fast primes from Olympus will be important to make this system sing, and I'm quite sure they will deliver. A macro is obvious, and a fast 100mm would be nice. Maybe the 100mm f/2.0 macro that has long been indicated on the Zuiko roadmap will materialise in M4/3 form. That would be nice
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 15th September 2008 at 16:39.

  9. #59
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    It would be a nice option to have a B&W viewfinder with brightness and contrast options.With the ability to memorise a few linked to camera settings you would be looking more directly at the desired result.
    Last edited by nei1; 15th September 2008 at 21:59.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    It would be a nice option to have a B&W viewfinder with brightness and contrast options.With the ability to memorise a few linked to camera settings you would be looking more directly at the desired result.
    Generally you can do this by setting the camera to shoot Raw + jpeg and setting your jpegs to your desired contrast etc. You still get a color RAW to work with later and you have the jpeg the way you saw it.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    I think Neil means through the viewfinder even, not just the review on the screen, it would be an incredible way to previsualise shooting B&W film, say 4X5.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I think Neil means through the viewfinder even, not just the review on the screen, it would be an incredible way to previsualise shooting B&W film, say 4X5.
    Well we will see in a month or so. My hunch is that it will be in B&W.

  13. #63
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by TEBnewyork View Post
    Best discussion of the actual product from someone who has used it a bit....
    Andy Westlake reviews lenses for DPReview... his posts on this thread are interesting...

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=29306625
    Terry, thanks for that link. The G1 sounds very impressive!

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    I have been folowing all the discussion on this camera with interest.
    It really does seem to offer as lot of promise.
    For me the salient points are
    1-Superb EVF, 100% coverage
    2-MUCH quieter than DSLR, no mirror flip, low vibration too.
    3-A form factor approaching thos of old film SLR's like the Oly Om-1
    4-effortless switching from LCD to EVF
    5-Pivoting LCD, feature not to be underestimated

    All in all it will at the least be an interesting ride

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Lili View Post
    I have been folowing all the discussion on this camera with interest.
    It really does seem to offer as lot of promise.
    For me the salient points are
    1-Superb EVF, 100% coverage
    2-MUCH quieter than DSLR, no mirror flip, low vibration too.
    3-A form factor approaching thos of old film SLR's like the Oly Om-1
    4-effortless switching from LCD to EVF
    5-Pivoting LCD, feature not to be underestimated

    All in all it will at the least be an interesting ride
    Indeed. Im VERY interested....

    My D200 with 17-55/2.8 is far too heavy.
    My D-lux 3 is too small, fiddly, and noisy.
    My Digilux 2 is my present favourite, but the EVF is next to useless.
    Ive been missing a swiveling LCD since my Canon G3 was retired...

    It looks like this is the answer to all these points; only a 2-2.8 Vario-Summicron missing...

    Cant wait to handle it in the flesh!

    BTW, happy and relieved to hear from Lili again after the hurricane...
    Seems you got through it unscathed!

  16. #66
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Ben,yes thats is what I mean,sorry not to have explained it a little better.I mean through the viewfinder and not as a review but as your taking the picture.It obviously wouldnt be recorded as such but I think it might be interesting to see as your more or less going to print.The evf finder is the first time this is a possibility,it would be a nice option to have .

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Per Ofverbeck View Post
    Indeed. Im VERY interested....

    My D200 with 17-55/2.8 is far too heavy.
    My D-lux 3 is too small, fiddly, and noisy.
    My Digilux 2 is my present favourite, but the EVF is next to useless.
    Ive been missing a swiveling LCD since my Canon G3 was retired...

    It looks like this is the answer to all these points; only a 2-2.8 Vario-Summicron missing...

    Cant wait to handle it in the flesh!

    BTW, happy and relieved to hear from Lili again after the hurricane...
    Seems you got through it unscathed!
    Thanks for the welcome back
    It passed far enough East that we only got a cool, rainy breeze.
    Evacuees are still in our area now, they cannot go back yet

    Back on topic, this camera with a fast little zoom would simply rock.
    Right now I do most of my work on my GRD, tho the Fuji bridge camera has really been getting a workout lately, if only the S6000 had a better EVF
    So the G-1 is of great interest to me

  18. #68
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Hi Terry,I just presumed the evf would be in color but it would be a giant leap in technology to make one I suppose,do you think it will sell to the masses with a fixed b&w finder? best regards Neil.
    Last edited by nei1; 16th September 2008 at 22:01.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Hi Terry,I just presumed the evf would be in color but it would be a giant leap in technology to make one I suppose,do you think it will sell to the masses with a fixed b&w finder? best regards Neil.
    I don't think you will see a fixed B&W.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Stick a piece of Wratten 90 filter on the EVF/VF if you want B&W visualization. That is what many used in the old days.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Stick a piece of Wratten 90 filter on the EVF/VF if you want B&W visualization. That is what many used in the old days.
    You could also become a politician. They mostly see things in black and white

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Now, why didn't I think of that?!

    (That is a comedy unfolding there, Jorgen- where you are living now! )

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Now, why didn't I think of that?!

    (That is a comedy unfolding there, Jorgen- where you are living now! )
    Comedy? Where Exactly what are you indicating here? This is a democracy, you know

    You mean the fact that the country is now run from England by a former football club owner through his brother in law after the TV-chef had to give up his part-time job as a prime minister? Aren't all countries managed that way?

  24. #74
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by nei1 View Post
    Ben,yes thats is what I mean,sorry not to have explained it a little better.I mean through the viewfinder and not as a review but as your taking the picture.It obviously wouldnt be recorded as such but I think it might be interesting to see as your more or less going to print.The evf finder is the first time this is a possibility,it would be a nice option to have .
    Actually, this is how my current Panny FZ28's EVF works (and other Panasonics before it all the way back to the LC1/Digilux 2.) Whatever "film mode," ie. B&W, you choose for jpegs is what you'll see in the EVF. As Terry mentioned above, you can shoot raw+jpeg to get the best of both worlds. I see no reason to believe the G1's EVF will be any different.
    Regards,
    Joan

  25. #75
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Well we will see in a month or so. My hunch is that it will be in B&W.
    I don't think you will see a fixed B&W.



    Terry ,Im a little confused

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    what I was trying to say is what Joan said. The EVF is in color. However, if you shoot RAW + Jpeg, you can make selections on you JPEG processing that will carry over to both the LCD and EVF. So, if you chose B&W the screens will show a B&W image. Save to the card will be a B&W JPEG and a regular RAW with all of the color data.

    If you only shoot RAW - screen and EVF will be in color. If you only shoot JPEG and you set camera for B&W you will get one file with B&W and LCD + EVF are B&W.

    There is no way that I know of to shoot only RAW and keep the EVF B&W. The M8 also works exactly this way.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Does anyone know what this "new generation of 4/3rds sensor" that the G1 is supposed to have? I am not in on the sources/threads/sites.

    Any info on that would be greatly appreciated.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Does anyone know what this "new generation of 4/3rds sensor" that the G1 is supposed to have? I am not in on the sources/threads/sites.

    Any info on that would be greatly appreciated.
    I haven't found anything specific but from what I have read it is supposed to address better DR and better high ISO.

  29. #79
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Thanks Terry & Joan,so if the evf was left independent of the camera settings it could ,if allowed by the camera,be set as desired.There are presumably auto settings for low light etc,if these had a manual overide (not too difficult I wouldnt have thought)then it would work as a pre-visualisation tool which would be very useful and a plus over an optical finder.Depends on the quality of the evf image I supose.If after tuning the image in the evf(e.g.high key or low key)the settings to achieve that result could then be transferred to the camera at the touch of a button then this I think would be another plus for the evf.
    All the best Neil.
    p.s.Im only talking about the evf view finder,the one you look through,not the screen on the back of the camera.
    Last edited by nei1; 17th September 2008 at 21:46.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Terry, Thanks for all the information (everything, including the whole thread)!

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    I can't find what I read earlier, but I believe the sensor and EVF are fairly tightly coupled to reduce any delay in updating the EVF. That would mean there is as little processing and as few chips as possible between the two. Technically it's possible to apply all sorts of 'filters' to what you see in the EVF, but I wouldn't expect it in the G1.

    Realistically I don't really believe any delay would be noticeable, but the chips add cost, complexity and require additional power. I think EVF is basically going to be a direct feed from the sensor, although I'd be happy to be wrong.

    EDIT: A short break and some Oreos can change your mind. Not so sure it would be that hard now. Just have to wait and see I guess.
    Last edited by cjlacz; 18th September 2008 at 01:13.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    The G1's size isn't all that smaller than that of the Nikon D40x'. I think there is room to improve on this front.

    Perhaps Olympus will deliver those versions.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Tim of Four Thirds Photo has posted a Q&A with Panasonic rep. about the G1 here:

    http://fourthirdsphoto.com/G1/05.php

    One thing of particular note: he says Leica WILL make m4/3 lenses in the future and that the Pana-Leica partnership is still very much alive.
    Regards,
    Joan

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Joan View Post
    One thing of particular note: he says Leica WILL make m4/3 lenses in the future and that the Pana-Leica partnership is still very much alive.
    The lenses don't surprise me. They hardly released anything for 4/3s and the 14-150 was probably a test for the m4/3s version. As soon as m4/3s as announced we have a fast prime and 7-14mm zoom listed plus what they had for 4/3s and a bigger zoom. I don't think Olympus will drop 4/3s, but (IMO) I kind of expect Leica and Panasonic to really jump on the m4/3s bandwagon more then 4/3s.

    Maybe I'm way off, but I have high hopes to see a lot more out of them this time around.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    It doesn't make sense that we won't see a camera from Oly at Photokina, the list of options for this system can only get better.
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Joan View Post
    Tim of Four Thirds Photo has posted a Q&A with Panasonic rep. about the G1 here:

    http://fourthirdsphoto.com/G1/05.php

    One thing of particular note: he says Leica WILL make m4/3 lenses in the future and that the Pana-Leica partnership is still very much alive.
    I don't think Leica is actually "making" those lenses so much as designing them and defining manufacturing specifications. I really wonder just how much Leica's license per lens is?

    "The market wants a Leica to be a Leica: the inheritor of tradition, the subject of lore, and indisputably a mark of status to own."
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    I don't think Leica is actually "making" those lenses so much as designing them and defining manufacturing specifications. I really wonder just how much Leica's license per lens is?
    I guess, enough that they are branded Lumix and perhaps Leica wants it's name on faster lenses made to different specs.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The G1's size isn't all that smaller than that of the Nikon D40x'. I think there is room to improve on this front.
    I dunno, it looks pretty tiny to me, even so:


    More good pictures on this Flickr set.

    Bear in mind, too, that Panasonic explicitly said they could have made the camera smaller but didn't for fear of alienating Western (I think) buyers.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Caer View Post
    I dunno, it looks pretty tiny to me, even so:
    I do know as the dimensions have been published.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Panasonic apparently claim (the interview link Joan provided) that the flip out TFT screen increased the bulk.

    This was not the case with the Epson R-D1/s.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Panasonic apparently claim (the interview link Joan provided) that the flip out TFT screen increased the bulk.

    This was not the case with the Epson R-D1/s.
    Yes, it does and did on the RD1 as well. Think about the extra layers of plastics etc. that you need on a flip out that you wouldn't on a regular. Even if it is recessed in and sits flat (which the Panny does), you protect the back of the screen, the back panel of the camera and each layer adds to the dimensions.

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    Senior Member Joan's Avatar
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by johnastovall View Post
    I don't think Leica is actually "making" those lenses so much as designing them and defining manufacturing specifications. I really wonder just how much Leica's license per lens is?
    Yes, you're right, John. That was a poor choice of words on my part. However, I honestly think Leica should consider having Panasonic manufacture a Leica-branded m4/3 body and design some small primes for this new standard.
    This is what almost everyone wants to see come out of m4/3, a sleek body that has the small size and style of a rangefinder camera, but with modern electronics and tiny lenses. No, it's not an M class camera, but it's the closest most people will ever get to one.
    Regards,
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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    . . . Panasonic apparently claim that the flip out TFT screen increased the bulk . . .
    I guess technically it does, but ergonomically it must surely be worth it? The additional creativity and practicality one gains from having a flip/rotate LCD is worth the couple of millimetres around the waistline . .

    I, for one, believe the flip/rotate LCD is a real help to inobtrusive and creative photography.

    Other than Canon's S-series of p&s's this is now the only compact camera I know of to sport a flip/rotate LCD. I was hoping to see it make a comeback on their G-series, but alas, with the release of the G10, it was not to be.

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    I found this thread at DPReview...from the links provided here are a couple of interesting points

    "Yes. We prioritized modest price in the development of the "Lumix G lens," an interchangeable lens that we have just announced. However, we have a plan to sell Leica-branded products, which are characterized by very high image quality."

    http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...9&changemode=1

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    Panny's PR company responded to me this week and I should be getting one for review next month. They seem to be focusing on EMEA and Asia for PR work first. I am wondering what Olympus is going to offer in comparison?
    Carlos Echenique | Carlos Echenique Photography |Olympus OM-D E-M1 MK II | Olympus Pen-F - M.Zuiko 17mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 25mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 45mm f/1.8, Rokinon 12mm f/2 NCS, M.Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, M.Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 PRO, M.Zuiko 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    we might know on monday

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    Re: Panny G1 - the first m4/3 has arrived

    A bunch of small G1 sample photos are up on Photography Blog:

    http://www.photographyblog.com/revie..._g1_photos.php
    Regards,
    Joan

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