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Thread: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

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    A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    HI There
    this shot shows the area of the image, with the crop area:



    The M8 was taken using the Summicron 35mm asph at f6.5, the A900 with the Zeiss 24-70 at 50mm and f8 and the E3 with the Zuiko 12-60 at 26mm and f5. I used the different apertures to make the depth of field closer to each other.

    I made sure that the vertical field of view was the same for each shot (as the Olympus has a different aspect ratio).

    Each shot was processed in Aperture with no added sharpening (only the exposure was equalised), and cropped down to the same area of the frame. It was then saved as 900 pixels. All were shot within a minute or so of each other using daylight white balance.

    Of course, if one could be bothered it would also be interesting to organise it so that the area covered the same number of pixels (I thought about it, but it made my brain hurt!).

    anyway, here are







    The exif is still there, so you can cheat if it turns you on

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Whichever is the middle one than that one maybe the best in the details and the DR looks very good. The bottom one looks muddy and the top one the saturation looks higher. I just checked the middle one EXIF after i made these comments. Not entirely surprised

    Also the middle one the tonal range and color seem more natural. This is a eye opener
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Also folks download all three to your desktop . Little easier to see the differences
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Also the middle one the tonal range and color seem more natural. This is a eye opener

    Do I feel a purchase coming on!

    Incidentally, I printed them all out as 10X8, without carefully checking which is which, and it's really extremely hard to tell one from the other.

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Certainly tempting. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Joan's Avatar
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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    I guessed right, do I win a prize?!

    #2 seems like the winner in this comparison, but I do like the cooler reds in #1, they make a nice contrast to the warm yellows and greens.
    Regards,
    Joan

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Joan do you have PS on your system
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    I got the A900 right, but I thought 3 was the Leica, not that there is much to choose between 1 & 3. The greater horsepower of the A900 wins through.

    Quentin

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    Senior Member Joan's Avatar
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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Joan do you have PS on your system
    No, Guy. I have PS Elements on my old PC, but need to get a Mac version one of these days.
    Regards,
    Joan

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Okay just wondering. was going to send you a action but only works in PS
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    2 is the Leica, no mistaking the AA filter (or lack of)!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    #2 is the best of the lot and it is from the Sony cam.

    Jono, Unfair comparisons!

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Okay just wondering. was going to send you a action but only works in PS
    Thanks for the thought, Guy. I have been using LightZone for my other cameras, which is really fun, but it won't read my G10 files. So, just struggling with DPP at the moment.
    Regards,
    Joan

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    asabet
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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    For a change, I guessed correctly. The Sony looks great here. My favorite way to do these comparisons is to make each crop look as good as possible. That might mean giving a different amount of sharpening to each one, or using a different method of upsizing, but what I'm most interested in is seeing the best possible results from each camera compared at any given output size.

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Okay, Okay
    silly game
    No 1 is the Leica
    No 2 is the A900 (sony)
    No 3 is the E3

    I suppose that the lesson here is that pixels do count - incidentally, I no longer have the D700, but testing against the Leica earlier would suggest that it would have been similar or slightly worse.

    Ben
    Of course, if these had been 100% crops rather than crops of an area, then the lack of an AA filter would have been to the Leica advantage (but not as much as you might expect, as Amin would vouch for).

    Vivek
    I did have a go at 100% crops, but I couldn't easily work out what the focal lengths should be. I thought I could just shoot them all at 35mm (real not equivalent) but of course, the Sony came out bigger because it has more pixels. Then I got bored!

    You say it's not fair, but I'm not sure about that - but if it isn't fair, what should one be doing!

    Amin
    I usually make the most of them as well, but I think that probably, in these circumstances it would simply have exacerbated the result.

    Incidentally, if the crop is coming up as about 8" on your screen (as it does on mine) then you are looking at the equivalent of about a 40" print.

    The idea of the comparison (apart from a bit of fun) was to tell me what difference the A900 was giving me in terms of IQ for a large print (in this case on A0 paper with a bit of a border).

    Worth noting that the similarity between the E3 and the M8 is not so surprising in that I was using the image HEIGHT as the reference point, rather than the width (which is a bit less on 4:3).

    Colour and Dynamic range are other issues, and it looks to me as though Sony have done rather well here.

    I guess it all adds up to our general understanding.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    You keep me teetering on the brink, Jono. I keep thinking I have dismissed the A900 but then along you come and rekindle my interest then again, Nikon are supposed to have a big announcement soon.

    Quentin
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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    You keep me teetering on the brink, Jono. I keep thinking I have dismissed the A900 but then along you come and rekindle my interest then again, Nikon are supposed to have a big announcement soon.

    Quentin

    It makes it much more fun posting these when I know you're around!

    I hope you're well.

    M type Nikon - that's the one . . . .then again, business is good (isn't it?) why not an S2?

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Jono, I did not say what is unfair!

    Sony rocks!

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    It makes it much more fun posting these when I know you're around!

    I hope you're well.

    M type Nikon - that's the one . . . .then again, business is good (isn't it?) why not an S2?
    Hi Jono,

    We are (all) fine but a bit "weddinged out"

    M Type Nikon as you rightly say. And if it matches expectations, I may well be interested. Business is fine, but who knows with this credit debacle?

    Love an S2, but its still vapourware. But I guarantee we will *both* end up buying one though . You know it

    Quentin
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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Hi Jono,

    I think that scaling the extra resolution down to 900pixels is giving the A900 a natural sharpening effect - if you apply sharpening to the other two images it would be a more interesting comparison!

    Just out of interest, how much would an A900 and a Zeiss 24-70 cost?

    Kind Regards

    Brian

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Hi Jono,

    We are (all) fine but a bit "weddinged out"

    M Type Nikon as you rightly say. And if it matches expectations, I may well be interested. Business is fine, but who knows with this credit debacle?

    Love an S2, but its still vapourware. But I guarantee we will *both* end up buying one though . You know it

    Quentin
    Hmm - I'm SURE that you'll have an S2, not so sure that I will though (I might have to discuss it with Silas first, and I'm not sure that he'd approve!).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    Hi Jono,

    I think that scaling the extra resolution down to 900pixels is giving the A900 a natural sharpening effect - if you apply sharpening to the other two images it would be a more interesting comparison!

    Just out of interest, how much would an A900 and a Zeiss 24-70 cost?

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    Hi Brian
    But surely if I did that it would simply be removing the 'advantage' of more pixels (which is already being greatly reduced by reducing the size . . . if you see what I mean).

    I don't think there's much doubt that if you have the same size pixels . . . but twice as many, that's going to convey some benefit, whether it's worth the candle is another matter!

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    What *is* the advantage of those extra pixels when you're displaying your image on the web, or printing less than 20" wide?

    You could arguably match the sharpness of the A-900 shot above by good sharpening of your M8 / E-3 images.

    To be honest, the E-1 had enough resolution, good dynamic range and great colour for web display and medium sized prints...

    I very rarely find the need to crop my images - I compose carefully.

    Are there any advantages to shooting with the A-900, apart from shallow depth of field?

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    Last edited by Brian Mosley; 27th October 2008 at 18:10.

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Mosley View Post
    What *is* the advantage of those extra pixels when you're displaying your image on the web, or printing less than 20" wide?

    You could arguably match the sharpness of the A-900 shot above by good sharpening of your M8 / E-3 images.

    To be honest, the E-1 had enough resolution, good dynamic range and great colour for web display and medium sized prints...

    I very rarely find the need to crop my images - I compose carefully.

    Are there any advantages to shooting with the A-900, apart from shallow depth of field?

    Kind Regards

    Brian
    Printing - you can tell the difference on A4 sized prints (rather in the same way that if you remove the frequencies above 14khz from music somebody who can only hear up to 12khz can always tell the difference).

    But of course the real answer is for doing big(ish) prints for landscapes - and of course, it gives you huge cropping potential (which may be useful if your lens doesn't go close enough or far enough).

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Time to sort yourself out Jono. You must wonder which camera to pick up theses days
    I've just been quoted prices on the Sony, for a colleague who is thinking of switching from Nikon D2X outfit. The Sony will fit alongside his leaf back as a more portable system. £1800 body £1100 24-70 Zeiss and £900 135 f1.8 Zeiss. Flash was £315 and grip £220 (I know you don't like them).
    I'll go sony if I need more pixels. It's the Zeiss thing for those of us of more mature years. He's got a bag of Nikon stuff to trade in but that doesn't add up to much these days but at least this supplier does do trade in. However, he's like me just do the deal and get drunk can't be bothered with all the ebay hassle. If he does the deal I might be tempted to take his 12-24 f4 and the 70-180 macro is tempting, although I don't think I'd use it. I am sticking with D300's for press PR work.
    Sony should put you on a retainer, your doing such a great job for them
    Dave

  26. #26
    asabet
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    Re: A900 vs E3 vs M8 (which is which!)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Printing - you can tell the difference on A4 sized prints
    A4 is an aspect ratio of ~1.4, which is closer to 3:2 than 4:3. However, even if we handicap the A900 by comparing vertical resolution only, the native vertical resolution of the A900 in an A4 print (8.3 inches in height) would be 4032/8.3, or 486 dpi. An E3 print would be 2736/8.3, or 330 dpi. Assuming that the two cameras have a similar per pixel sharpness, which is giving the E3 some credit, the difference between 486 dpi and 330 dpi is easily discernible to the human eye/brain. A nice illustration of this can be found here. In fact, with a good printer, one should even be able to tell an A900 print (486 dpi) from a medium format print (eg, 869 dpi) at print sizes as small as A4 and certainly at A3.

    The big however is that viewing distance and DOF can all play significant roles in how the prints are perceived, as evidenced by Michael Reichmann's latest experiment with the P45+ and Canon G10.

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