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Thread: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    A friend who knows of my interest in the DP2M sent me links to a couple of very interesting comparison tests.

    Test 1: DP2M vs Nex-7, OM-D and D600

    Test 2: DP2M vs D800e

    Interesting results.

    LouisB
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    I'd just receently begun follow this guys blog and was taken totally off guard when he began his 'experiments' on the DP2M. As a result he's become an unabashed fan of the DP2 M.

    He's on a quest to reduce the photographic 'clutter on his shelf. Lately he's become quite enamored with the GH3 (which I can't blame him) for it's 'macho' character and build along with the promise of DSLR quality and a VERY manageable package and superb lenses available (unlike the D800 which he loves but, as you've mentioned Louis, doesn't relish lugging it's massiveness everywhere anymore).
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    One of his conclusions that in comparison with the DP2M all other (35mm) cameras files look ordinary is so true.
    Last edited by retow; 18th December 2012 at 13:51.
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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by retow View Post
    One of his conclusions that in comparison with the DP2M all other (35mm) camera's files look ordinary is so true.
    I must admit to feeling like that myself. That said I am still shooting MF film for its aesthetic qualities. Apart from using the highly usable 100-300 zoom on my GH-2 for birding, I can't get too enthusiastic about using my digital m43rds kit and I've stopped drooling over other camera systems.

    If money were no object I suppose I could get excited by the Sony RX-1 but then again at a third of the price a DP1M might make more sense.

    Louis

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    I printed three 20x30" prints recently. One was from a Leica M8 with a 35mm Leica Summaron 2.8 (uprezzed to M9 18mp dimensions), another was from the Leica M9 with Zeiss 35mm C-Biogon 2.8, and the last was from the DP2m. The only one that held up completely to up close inspection was the DP2m. The others started to get soft and not show minute detail. The DP2m showed every little detail and extremely small background text was completely sharp and easily readable. Amazing really. That said, I was happy with all three.
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Fascinating stuff. The DP2m has messed with my mind - I find it difficult to use other very capable cameras because they don't have the DP2M ( and to a slightly lesser extent, DP1m) magic. That includes a £30k Hasselblad set up.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Fascinating stuff. The DP2m has messed with my mind - I find it difficult to use other very capable cameras because they don't have the DP2M ( and to a slightly lesser extent, DP1m) magic. That includes a £30k Hasselblad set up.
    I feel the same way. I've been bouncing back and forth between my DP2M and new Leica M-E, but the DP2M clearly produces superior files.
    Carl
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Isn't just unbelievable! I work with three cameras and the only advantage of the others is that I can use different (nice) lenses on it, something I like to do.
    Image wise there is no comparison.

    I can only moan about a bigger Foveon sensor and an intechangeble lensmount etc... (not to forget high ISO improvement)

    Michiel

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    You're all crazed
    Pictures are about pictures . . .not pixels, and a slow fixed lens camera doesn't make it easy to take pictures (however good the pixels are).

    Foveon may be the dog's dooh-dahs - but until it's in a camera which makes it satisfactory to catch good images . . . . . .

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    You may heard that DxO created the measure term Perceptual M-Pix. An people are complaining how few M-Pix there camera now have. But if you look at the DP2M images you know what real 15MP can look like and realize the others don't show that detail at 24MP.

    >a slow fixed lens camera doesn't make it easy to take pictures (however good the pixels are).

    But if it works they sing.

    I think Sigma created this camera for Michiel because they fit so well to his work :-).
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    You're all crazed
    Pictures are about pictures . . .not pixels, and a slow fixed lens camera doesn't make it easy to take pictures (however good the pixels are).

    Foveon may be the dog's dooh-dahs - but until it's in a camera which makes it satisfactory to catch good images . . . . . .
    So you didn't see any good pictures taken with it.... huh

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    You may heard that DxO created the measure term Perceptual M-Pix. An people are complaining how few M-Pix there camera now have. But if you look at the DP2M images you know what real 15MP can look like and realize the others don't show that detail at 24MP.

    >a slow fixed lens camera doesn't make it easy to take pictures (however good the pixels are).

    But if it works they sing.

    I think Sigma created this camera for Michiel because they fit so well to his work :-).
    It is true, I really like to work with it, but I still need other cameras for low light and different focussing distances.
    And I have to put on my glasses to look at the screen. I love the NEX-7 viewfinder.

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    I use now mainly a GH3 but still love the DP2M.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Editor&Owner of Digital Outback Photo
    http://www.outbackphoto.com

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    You're all crazed
    Pictures are about pictures . . .not pixels, and a slow fixed lens camera doesn't make it easy to take pictures (however good the pixels are).

    Foveon may be the dog's dooh-dahs - but until it's in a camera which makes it satisfactory to catch good images . . . . . .
    I use the DP2M mostly on a tripod for landscapes where it really excels so speed is not an issue. The Leica gives me more options for casual shooting or where speed is an important consideration. I'm happy to have both.
    Carl
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    You're all crazed
    Pictures are about pictures . . .not pixels, and a slow fixed lens camera doesn't make it easy to take pictures (however good the pixels are).

    Foveon may be the dog's dooh-dahs - but until it's in a camera which makes it satisfactory to catch good images . . . . . .
    I don't mind using a rifle instead of a machine gun, once in a while. In good light , the AF speed of the Merrills is actually no that bad, beating a Leica X1. File write time is a different story.
    Last edited by retow; 18th December 2012 at 22:52.

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    You're all crazed
    Pictures are about pictures . . .not pixels, and a slow fixed lens camera doesn't make it easy to take pictures (however good the pixels are).

    Foveon may be the dog's dooh-dahs - but until it's in a camera which makes it satisfactory to catch good images . . . . . .
    Um, I was skeptical too but the infectious enthusiasm of this forum had me hold. That was in spite of having a camera that forced me to use a rear LCD screen - something I have always hated because I can't see it properly.

    I really haven't had much chance to use it properly yet but I have to say that this camera is different. It is actually surprisingly easy to use. The LCD screen is OK and I can use it (even if I have to put my glasses on). Yes the write times are slow, it eats batteries, SPP is slow to use and it has only on lens. But, Jono, what a lens! And what fantastically detailed images! I do not believe that any of the web size shots here do it justice. You have to see it for yourself to believe it. Having spent most of last year ignoring my K5 (and eventually selling it) in favour of the X100, the focal length on this beauty is no problem for me.

    I would not make it my only camera - my Fuji X-Pro 1 kit remains - and that is fantastic too, hopefully soon to become even more worthwhile with Capture One's anticipated interpretation of the RAW files.

    The Merrill just needs to be treated with respect and it delivers in bounds.

    Lee

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    I show this image as an example. I always likes these kind of leaves and patterns. Nothing special at all. But the first time I got what I wanted was from the DP2M.

    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Well Jono we are definitely all crazed, spot on there but its due to infectious enthusiasm for an exceptional product. It's not just the sensor, it's *that* lens. It's actually a surprisingly good old-school photographer's camera, save for the lack of a built in viewfinder. Easy menu system, simple choices, use at low ISO. I'd say if you were coming from film it would be easier to use than most other digital cameras. You should love it
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Yes Jono, you should try it
    (you can always sell it)

    You certainly stirred things up here for a while.
    If this sensor is going to be matched to a more complete system, other brands wil have a hard game to play.

    Still this camera is capable of very good ouput as it is and can out perform, under the right circumstances, almost anything on the market and at the same time you can slide it in your pocket.

    Quiet remarkable, I think.
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    This quality in a camera under $1000 cannot be beat...the lens alone is easily worth that. The AF isn't as bad as people want to think (though it was before the firmware updates and note that many reviews were prior to the updates). Write times are slow, but you can still make photos while writing.
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    Yes Jono, you should try it
    (you can always sell it)

    You certainly stirred things up here for a while.
    If this sensor is going to be matched to a more complete system, other brands wil have a hard game to play.

    Still this camera is capable of very good ouput as it is and can out perform, under the right circumstances, almost anything on the market and at the same time you can slide it in your pocket.

    Quiet remarkable, I think.

    The Sigma SD1M with the same sensor is now available for under 1800. Add to this the upcoming Sigma 35/1.4.
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    >The Sigma SD1M with the same sensor is now available for under 1800.

    Not sure how many lenses will match the sensor. The 35mm likely will.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Yes Uwe, that is tempting. But then you have another 35 mm range lens.
    The Sigma 150mm Macro seems to be good and may be the other upcoming Art lenses.
    Two things stop me. I want to go Full Frame and not many Alt lenses to adapt.
    Only M42 and Contax AF lenses made adaptable by Conurus.

    Michiel

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    >that is tempting.

    Not for me. Don't want to go big again. I am happy with GH3 and DP2M.
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    You're all crazed
    Pictures are about pictures . . .not pixels, and a slow fixed lens camera doesn't make it easy to take pictures (however good the pixels are).

    Foveon may be the dog's dooh-dahs - but until it's in a camera which makes it satisfactory to catch good images . . . . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    I show this image as an example. I always likes these kind of leaves and patterns. Nothing special at all. But the first time I got what I wanted was from the DP2M.

    This is a prime example of what I find with the DP2M - that it renders complex patterns most wonderfully.

    LouisB

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by ustein View Post
    >that is tempting.

    Not for me. Don't want to go big again. I am happy with GH3 and DP2M.
    Me too Uwe. The DP2 was the first new camera I've had in years. And, despite it's well-documented flaws which, to me aren't really all that bad, I couldn't be happier with the results I've gotten. When the conditions are right (and there's a huge swath or conditions it can be right for) the results are beyond anything I've ever seen.

    My previous camera was (and still is) the G1 which, at the time I felt was the most promising new development in the digital age in terms of the ratio of quality to bulk. Bulk seemed to me the biggest drawback of digital cameras and mFt meant to me that giving up a little bit in IQ in exchange for lighter, more manageable equipment was a plus. But mFt has evolved magnificently and the latest iterations (particularly the sensors) are now yielding results that, except in some extreme DR situations, on a par with the best of APS-C and even recent FF cameras. (Although not even close to the APS-C of the DP2/1 M!)

    That said, while to me the DP2M has no equal at this time in terms of IQ bang for the buck, I am indeed seriously looking at the GH3 as well. Yes it's bigger than your usual mFt DSLR-like camera but it's still way smaller than typical DSLRs and lighter even with a full metal jacket and weatherproofing. But the lenses available whether from Panasonic (who clearly was paying attention when Leitz was showing how they like their optics ground) and Olympus have evolved into a series of petite jewels.

    So like you, as the classic VW ad designed by my late friend Helmut Krone said, I like to "Think small."
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.

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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    I agree with Peter and Uwe but for slightly different reasons.

    Can't remember the last time I needed to print anything of mine either privately or commercially where a m43rds frame size was not sufficient. Oh well, I guess I'll never be able to do work for billboards (like that is ever going to happen).

    Mind you, the exciting thing is that I think a single DP2M frame could be used for a billboard.

    LouisB

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I guess I'll never be able to do work for billboards
    Why?

    Standard print resolution for a billboard is 70 DPI. You SWC is still one of the best lenses/cameras ever made. Your DP2M is just taking a different approach.

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Me too Uwe. The DP2 was the first new camera I've had in years. And, despite it's well-documented flaws which, to me aren't really all that bad, I couldn't be happier with the results I've gotten. When the conditions are right (and there's a huge swath or conditions it can be right for) the results are beyond anything I've ever seen.

    My previous camera was (and still is) the G1 which, at the time I felt was the most promising new development in the digital age in terms of the ratio of quality to bulk. Bulk seemed to me the biggest drawback of digital cameras and mFt meant to me that giving up a little bit in IQ in exchange for lighter, more manageable equipment was a plus. But mFt has evolved magnificently and the latest iterations (particularly the sensors) are now yielding results that, except in some extreme DR situations, on a par with the best of APS-C and even recent FF cameras. (Although not even close to the APS-C of the DP2/1 M!)

    That said, while to me the DP2M has no equal at this time in terms of IQ bang for the buck, I am indeed seriously looking at the GH3 as well. Yes it's bigger than your usual mFt DSLR-like camera but it's still way smaller than typical DSLRs and lighter even with a full metal jacket and weatherproofing. But the lenses available whether from Panasonic (who clearly was paying attention when Leitz was showing how they like their optics ground) and Olympus have evolved into a series of petite jewels.

    So like you, as the classic VW ad designed by my late friend Helmut Krone said, I like to "Think small."
    Although I like the concept of small sizes with mFT, the main disadvantage of this sensor size - the DOF compared to fullframe - turns me off.

    IQ, DR etc. will become better generation after generation. But DOF stays the same. This is why I sold my FT system only after a couple of weeks...

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Does anyone use the SD1 Merrill?
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Candlish View Post
    Why?

    Standard print resolution for a billboard is 70 DPI. You SWC is still one of the best lenses/cameras ever made. Your DP2M is just taking a different approach.
    Kirk

    I can't disagree with you about the SWC. My favourite camera, period.

    LouisB

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Does anyone use the SD1 Merrill?
    Never ran into someone on this forum.

    You can see some examples from a guy named "contas" in the Contax-N thread at the FM forum. He uses a few Contax N lenses with a new Sigma mount from Conurus on the SD1.

    Contax N Image Thread - FM Forums

    Michiel

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    New rumors predict Sigma mirrorless cams in 2013. It is inevitable and time they got rid of the SD1 and such.

    If/when a Foveon mirrorless cam hits the market, I will get one.
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    New rumors predict Sigma mirrorless cams in 2013. It is inevitable and time they got rid of the SD1 and such.

    If/when a Foveon mirrorless cam hits the market, I will get one.
    Sigma: We will not make any mirrorless system camera. | Mirrorless Rumors

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Two factors one needs to consider:

    1. These are the folks who goofed up BIG time with the SD-1 (pricing) and try to do damage control with the SD-1M.

    2. With DP-1M and DP-2M being current and if they admit to a possibility of an interchangeable mirrorless cam with a Foveon sensor, it would be utter disaster.

    Do you honestly think that they can sell and make any cents off of the SD1?

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Two factors one needs to consider:

    1. These are the folks who goofed up BIG time with the SD-1 (pricing) and try to do damage control with the SD-1M.

    2. With DP-1M and DP-2M being current and if they admit to a possibility of an interchangeable mirrorless cam with a Foveon sensor, it would be utter disaster.

    Do you honestly think that they can sell and make any cents off of the SD1?
    Right, I think the company may have to write off the SD-1 altogether. They have widened their DP fanbase with these new Merrill compacts. I never cared about the other SD cameras until the Merrill... which is special due to its size and lens.

    However, not everyone is into interchangable lens cameras. The thing I liked about the Merrill is that it is a fixed lens camera in which the sensor is perfectly matched to the sensor.

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Maybe they could make a nice fixed zoom?
    Uwe Steinmueller
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    I'd rather have three fixed focal length Merrills than a compromised zoom or interchangeable lens one. One with a 24mm, the exisitng 45mm and a 75mm equivalent one. And in each case lens and sensor being the perfect team. Three outstanding primes with the unique Foveon sensor included for USD 3000. I'll be a buyer.
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    A nice foveon FF mirrorless camera with an EVF with outlined focus peaking.
    A new mount as close to the sensor as the E-mount, if possible, and loads of people will be all over it. Good bussiness for adapter and lens makers as well!

    In my opinion they would have gold in their hands, but they have to hurry before Sony gets their Foveon-alike act together.

    Thats what I want but then, who listens to me........
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  40. #40
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    One very likely thing that is going to happen very soon is the software part (from Sigma themselves, that is). To extract real monochrome images from the Foveon sensor's output. This should be easy as the sensor is a monochrome sensor.

    The value of DP-2/1M's will increase manifold just from this.

    If there is an interchangeable mount DP, it will be fantastic!

    If it is a FF Foveon mirrorless with an integrated EVF, medium format companies should watch out!
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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    I wonder if anyone from Sigma ever reads this forum.

    I mean, here we are, all enthusiastically giving positive product testimonials - let alone the quality of the work in the photo thread.

    If you are listening Sigma, please, please, please bring out a mirrorless body and if necessary a limited edition line of lenses for it.

    You seriously can't let the Foveon sensor die on the vine because of lack of products.

    LouisB
    Last edited by biglouis; 20th December 2012 at 10:20.
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    So, they have already three new customers within 10 minutes....

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Let's be thankful for what we have. Sigma could blow the whole MF / high end 35mm market to kingdom come with a full frame 30mp plus Foveon based camera with a few DP2m level lenses. But they won't.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Let's be thankful for what we have. Sigma could blow the whole MF / high end 35mm market to kingdom come with a full frame 30mp plus Foveon based camera with a few DP2m level lenses. But they won't.
    How do you know Quentin? Friends in high places?

    (We are like spoiled children, it's never enough )
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Does anyone use the SD1 Merrill?
    I did and returned the whole kit back to Sigma USA, not because the camera, but the sigma lenses. I probably had sigma send me 10 lenses to try.
    Besides he 50 and 75mm macro, struggled with everything else, mostly decentering issues, the 20mm had promiss I tried 3 different samples and all had different issues. Same with the 30mm and also there new 150mm Macro.
    I think Sigma lenses have terrible manufacturing issues, maybe the new 35/1.4 will be good.
    What's nice about the DP2m is they seem to have matched the sensor well with the lens.

    I still have a DP2m on order fm B&h I got there special price, yet have had them hold it because I am still evaluating he Fuji XE-1, with there kit zoom lens.
    Though if C1 does not deliver good RAW processing I am sending it back and will take delivery of the DP2M.

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  46. #46
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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    How do you know Quentin? Friends in high places?

    (We are like spoiled children, it's never enough )
    Speculation only. And a bit of a tease for Sigma....

    But it may be logical. Sigma's main income stream is in supplying lenses to fit other manufacturers cameras. The Machievellian streak in me wonders how far they would want to pitch themselves as mainstream camera manufacturers against their indirect customer base, particularly with a product using a sensor that they don't have (I discount the SD1 as a niche product). If I ran Sigma, I'd look at making a limited edition super camera way out there with huge Foveon sensor and matched optics at a suitably high non-Sigma price. Don't compete at the 35mm DSLR level, go high end where you are not gouging your current market. It would raise sigma's standing and add kudos to their current range. Bit like Renault in F1 Motorsport.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: Two interesting comparison tests of DP2M

    The only reason Renault is in F1 is because they're contracting for engines at a price that's take it or leave it. They left the sport as complete car builders years ago because they'd won repeatedly and had no real competition.

    Clearly the mindset at Sigma was to charge a premium that set them apart. We all watched that debacle. Now with the DP1M and DP2M they've recovered their credibility and demonstrated the superior strengths of their sensor can be brought to the market without a premium price.

    Let's hope they are talking with the companies that know how to go from R&D to the market in time to be viable and will let someone else build the camera while they supply the sensor and lenses.

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