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Thread: EVIL Micro APS-C or APS-H ?

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    EVIL Micro APS-C or APS-H ?

    I have a drawer with some Leica R and M lenses and I would like to find some kind of a camera to mount them on while waiting for Leica (maybe partnering with someone else for that matter) to hopefully some day release an affordable digital R or M camera. If that day will ever come.

    At some point I'll probably pick up a Micro Four Thirds camera for these lenses, just for fun and while waiting for something better. But the thought of only using ~ 25 % of the image circle seems a tad too modest to me in the long run. That's why I hope for an EVIL type camera with a somewhat larger sensor e.g. crop factor 1.5 or 1.3 (ASP-C or ASP-H).

    Do you think we will see an EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H system in a not too distant future ?

    Panasonic has shown the industry what is actually possible with this concept (technically and pricewise) and there still seems to be an free niche for an innovative company to be the first to expand the concept to larger sensors.

    I imagine such a camera would be the ideal adapter platform for nearly every thinkable old manual focus small format lens on this earth.

    Now who would want to make such a non-dedicated multi-mount adapter-friendly machine ? Most of the manufacturers have their own specific interchangeable lens mount to protect and earn their serious money from. So I expect those companies wouldn't have the slightest interest in such a project stirring the market.

    But there are also companies who either don't have their own dedicated camera for their own lens line-up(s), or don't make their own lenses for some of their interchangeable lens cameras.

    Might Epson+Cosina be interested in making a new attempt after the somewhat failed R-D1 that apparently did'nt sell all that well probably because of the high price/specification ratio, especially the rather expensive rangefinder technology ? Actually just referring internet gossip here, I'm not a knowledgeable technician and I haven't got a clue about it.

    The Fuji folks are used to make DSLR's for another company's lens mount and are probably making at least some money out of that. I guess they could easily make an EVIL camera with their in-house technical expertise.

    The Zeiss folks make manual focus lenses for a broad range of other companies' lens mounts, but they (Zeiss) don't have a digital interchangeable lens camera of their own. An adapter based camera with a new innovative high precision manual focus system might increase sales of all these lenses. Zeiss could partner with Sony, nah probably not interested, but how about Samsung ?

    Pentax could use a market share boost taking up a new technology instead of the tough DSLR competition.

    Have the Panasonic folks gotten hungry after their G1 success ?

    Hey, I nearly forgot Casio. Of course, there we are

    Come on companies, this inspration is free.

    Pure speculation, still a bit funny to think about. I think.

  2. #2
    nautilus
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    I don't think that it's a profitable product strategy to just build a camera without a system around. So don't expect too much from todays non DSLR System manufacturers regarding your wish.
    Samsung is the only company that talked about building an EVF system up to today, besides Panasonic and Olympus with smaller sensors of course. Maybe this is exactly the starting signal for them to kick-off their camera business. Cameras with to much mechanicals inside wasn't their typical business I think. Could be that they build adapters like Olympus does for myFT. If so you may adopt your older lenses.

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    Senior Member Per Ofverbeck's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    To go on speculating: why not some kind of "micro view camera", with bellows, swings and tilts, and with lens boards instead of some tehcnically complicated bayonet mount? No electrical contacts, since it would be dedicated purely to 3rd party optics. Cheap lens boards, to which one could glue a back lens cover from whatever system one wanted, and then make a hole in it.

    Behind the bellows: a really thin camera body with a sensor and an articulated screen (maybe an EVF (or ELVIS) as well, but on a view camera a screen and a focussing cloth would be all that´s needed.

    Then market the whole thing under the name "ELVIS WESTON", and wait for the buyers....

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    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Interesting idea, but I see problems

    Camera makers are in the business of making money, and they won't make money from the use of legacy lenses -- these lenses are cheap nowadays because there is no longer any demand for them. The manufacturers want customers to 'buy into' their system to make a profit.

    Legacy lenses for film cameras weren't designed for use with unforgiving sensors; look at the difficulties Leica had with the M8, and their micro-lenses -- and they could still only manage a 'crop'.

    Legacy lenses may well be sort of telecentric in the centre of their image circle -- a sort of 'sweet spot' -- but not towards the periphery so that the Pana G1 4/3 sensor size might represent the practical upper limit for any reasonable image quality.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    ...Camera makers are in the business of making money, and they won't make money from the use of legacy lenses...
    Camera makers can make money by selling their bodies to legacy owners who are not willing or cannot afford to pay new lenses right now. But they will buy new lenses afterwards if they are happy with the body. Leica will probably sell very few S2s, if any, for this reason among others. The R10 would have been much easier to sell to legacy owners IMHO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    ...Legacy lenses for film cameras weren't designed for use with unforgiving sensors...
    Leica R lenses work fine with full frame Canon bodies. There is a bit of vignetting with wides but it is easy to adjust in PP. Same for Zeiss lenses on FF Nikons and Canons AFAIK.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    You probably already know this, but Samsung has already announced development of an APS-C EVIL system -> http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/01/s...o-four-thirds/

    I'm going to predict that we'll see a Cosina/Zeiss digital Ikon with a Sony 35mm full frame sensor, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.

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    Senior Member nostatic's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    You probably already know this, but Samsung has already announced development of an APS-C EVIL system -> http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/01/s...o-four-thirds/

    I'm going to predict that we'll see a Cosina/Zeiss digital Ikon with a Sony 35mm full frame sensor, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.
    I wonder if that will end up a Pentax branded camera, seeing as though Pentax uses the Samsung sensor in the K20d. They could make a pretty small body and use the current ltd primes.

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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    I wonder if that will end up a Pentax branded camera, seeing as though Pentax uses the Samsung sensor in the K20d. They could make a pretty small body and use the current ltd primes.
    I don't think this would work well. You still have to have the same register distance, so the body won't be thinner then existing cameras. You could remove the mirror and prism, so a little smaller and lighter. Contrast focusing would likely be fairly slow. The sensor seems like the least of the problems when making an EVIL camera. Am I completely wrong and just missing something obvious?
    Charles - flickr

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    You probably already know this, but Samsung has already announced development of an APS-C EVIL system -> http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/01/s...o-four-thirds/
    Whoa, that's great news, Amin, exactly what I was thinking about. I certainly did not know that. I'll start right away practising to see myself as a Samsung shooter .-)

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I'm going to predict that we'll see a Cosina/Zeiss digital Ikon with a Sony 35mm full frame sensor, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.
    And also a huge thank you for this prediction, Amin, I think it is wonderful thinking

  11. #11
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Thanks Steen, I had a feeling I wasn't the only one . I think micro 4/3 has a lot of potential, but none of the alternative/legacy lenses make great sense for use as a 35mm equivalent or wider, which is where I tend to spend most of my time with a film rangefinder.

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    Senior Member Robert Campbell's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LCT View Post
    Leica R lenses work fine with full frame Canon bodies. There is a bit of vignetting with wides but it is easy to adjust in PP. Same for Zeiss lenses on FF Nikons and Canons AFAIK.
    Fair enough; I'm not an optical expert, but the need for a mirror in an SLR means that the register between film/sensor plane and throat mount is much greater than on a rangefinder; therefore, such SLR lenses must be sort of telecentric -- I've never measured the size of a mirror, but they mostly look about the same size as the film/sensor -- implying that the rays at that point are sort of telecentric. OTOH [film] rangefinder lenses are much closer to the film/sensor plane, and need not be telecentric; hence Leica's problems, and why film SLR lenses work well on DSLRs.

    Using a SLR lens on a G1 seems a bit odd -- it would stick right out, very imbalanced; and a r/f lens, using only the central 'sweet spot' should work well too -- but not so well, I suggest, on a sensor larger than 4/3.

    Can any lens/optics expert confirm or refute this?
    Sláinte

    Robert.

  13. #13
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Campbell View Post
    ..Using a SLR lens on a G1 seems a bit odd -- it would stick right out, very imbalanced; and a r/f lens, using only the central 'sweet spot' should work well too -- but not so well, I suggest, on a sensor larger than 4/3....
    Yes i see what you mean but even the Epson R-D1 with older microlenses than those of the M8 give good results with good lenses like the Elmarit 21/2.8 asph for instance. Bit of vignetting again but easy to tweak in PP. Never tried a 12mm or 15mm M lens on a 4/3 camera though.

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    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bondo View Post
    Whoa, that's great news, Amin, exactly what I was thinking about. I certainly did not know that. I'll start right away practising to see myself as a Samsung shooter .-)
    By the way, Samsung APS-C is a 1.5x crop, so Leica M/LTM lenses with an adapter should provide the same field of view on the upcoming Samsung system as they would on an Epson RD1. I'm looking forward to finding out more about their system.

  15. #15
    nei1
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Thank goodness for your logic Amin,I feel the same and have not seen the great attraction for the 4x3 chip either.Ive mentioned this before to no response so it s probably idiotic but wouldnt the sensor in the fuji S5 be a good choice for a small manufacturer?

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    Senior Member barjohn's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Epson has already shown it can be done with an APS-C sensor. Going larger gets problematic as the M8 has shown with its need for special micro prisms and in camera processing to handle the light fall-off as the rays are more oblique to the sensor (less perpendicular). The problem with the larger sensor and not requiring a lot of post processing is the need to know the particular lenses characteristics and process corrections in camera. Consumers will not buy a camera they have to perform post process correction on to create a usable image. Using an EVF like Panasonic's would help reduce the cost by eliminating the costly mechanical range finder mechanism.

    While it is true that you don't use all of the capability of a lens designed for 35mm with the 4:3 sensor, you do get the best part of the lenses performance and you get to use very high quality glass that might be sitting around unused otherwise. For example you can by Leica R lenses in the used market very inexpensively compared to normal Leica prices and you get the highest quality image at a bargain price. Some say the R glass is as good or better than the M glass.
    V/r John

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    Senior Member dhsimmonds's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro ASP-C or ASP-H ?

    Steen, you can get adaptors to fit "R" prime lenses to both Nikon and Practica DSLR's while you dream for a cheap Leica!! Unfortunately it's not possible to get an adaptor to fit R lenses to a Sony A900, otherwise I would have tried it!
    Cheers, Dave
    www.simmondsphotography.com

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    Senior Subscriber Member Steen's Avatar
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    Re: EVIL Micro APS-C or APS-H ?

    Looks like the Samsung EVIL APS-C system got accelerated

    http://www.1001noisycameras.com/2009...-with-evf.html

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