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Thread: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

  1. #51
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Hmm…these are interesting but I also wonder what is coming down the line as replacement for the SD1M?

  2. #52
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    The camera is thin. It will be very cool to hold on the chest under a coat.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  3. #53
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I really do not like the design but it could look like a turd in a punchbowl as long as it performs well and the price is reasonable.


  4. #54
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Reminds me of the PureView technology in my 41 MP Nokia 1020 cell phone camera. I assume they are using similar processing or up-sampling approach.
    Carl
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  5. #55
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    This is excellent news as I own all three of the DPM models and have been trying to teach myself away from medium format through them. The one thing that is missing is the EVF. Maybe the next generation.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

  6. #56
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Don't count on using all those batteries you've got...
    Stephen

  7. #57
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    So to review where we are (rounded numbers):

    Old Foveon: 15 + 15 + 15 mp = circa 45mp

    New sensor: 20 + 5 + 5mp = circa 30mp

    What I am not sure about is how much influence the blue (20mp) layer will have with predominantly red or green images. One of the problems with mosaic (Bayer) sensors is the relative lack of red pixels. With the revised "Foveon" design, are we not looking at the exact same problem?

    Once one moves away from the pure foveon RGB design, I can see issues with interpolation and possibly with aliasing etc.

    In short, I don't see how this can be described as higher resolution sensor when the total number of pixels across the three layers is lower.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

  8. #58
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    i'm getting ready to sell my leica Ms for these!!!! I love sigma DP1&2ms. they were just ultimately too slow. I think the design is very sexy too.

  9. #59
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    So to review where we are (rounded numbers):

    Old Foveon: 15 + 15 + 15 mp = circa 45mp

    New sensor: 20 + 5 + 5mp = circa 30mp

    What I am not sure about is how much influence the blue (20mp) layer will have with predominantly red or green images. One of the problems with mosaic (Bayer) sensors is the relative lack of red pixels. With the revised "Foveon" design, are we not looking at the exact same problem?
    Correct but I would call it a "similar problem." The sigma Quattro still has the advantage of not having a grid with holes in color like CfA sensors, but yes- you are correct there will be cases the full resolution for color won't be quite realized.
    And some interpolation is now required.

    This is why I say this design is no longer really x3 foveon. That said there is one nice surprise hidden in the specs- the small raw format.

    I missed it and a kind soul pointed it out to me elsewhere- the dp2 Quattro can capture a 4.9 megapixel raw shot. In that mode its a true x3 foveon color capture and this time with a 4x sampled "blue layer" which may improve iq even a bit further.

    I am excited about this mode because it means you could use it for high iso and keep better color/slightly better DR, etc along with less ram storage in the memory card and possibly speeding up saving images to the sd card.

    Once one moves away from the pure foveon RGB design, I can see issues with interpolation and possibly with aliasing etc.

    In short, I don't see how this can be described as higher resolution sensor when the total number of pixels across the three layers is lower.
    I agree on paper. In reality because the Merrill sensor has so much noise and the issue that diffraction presents by the time you hit the red layer, this sensor may very well realize in real world implementation a higher resolution or about same with potential iso gains. But its true it is a set of pros and cons like all engineering designs in the world and will have its own quirks.

    This is why I said it will require interpolation at 19.6 mp to get color and yes, it's not a true foveon x3 design that way.

    - Ricardo

  10. #60
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Bravo, Sigma for being one of the most innovative camera and lens manufacturers in existence!

    Well done for not only staying faithful to Foveon but also evolving it, even in the face of critics most of whom are ignorant of the virtues of these unique cameras.

    I only have two questions:

    1. How much?
    2. When?

    I'll definitely try to give a home to the DPq1 as it is the only focal length I don't have in the DPm range. But I'll probably crack before then and get the DPq2.

    What can I say? I'm a Merrill addict!

    LouisB
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  11. #61
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post

    I only have two questions:

    1. How much?
    2. When?


    LouisB
    around 999$ launch date start or middle summer 2014.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  12. #62
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    around 999$ launch date start or middle summer 2014.
    That official?

  13. #63
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    If the DP2Q yields a better image than the DP2M and you refuse to buy only on the grounds of looks it seems you are more a gear-head and less a photographer.

    If its functional you should buy for the IQ and the handling, not the looks.

    Back to
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  14. #64
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post

    In short, I don't see how this can be described as higher resolution sensor when the total number of pixels across the three layers is lower.
    Hi Quentin,

    I was wondering the same thing. What I suspect (and I could be way off here) is that maybe the 19.6 MP of luminance information from the top layer of photo sites may turn out to be sufficient to provide the clarity of 'perceived' resolution creating an image with similarly (if not greater) stunning detail enjoyed so thoroughly by many in the previous 15.4 MP Merrill sensors.

    Then with the lower layers supplying solely 'color' information and very little (if any at all) luminance information it might be similar to having an incredibly detailed paint-by-numbers drawing that is filled with a rich blend of color information in order to create the final image.

    And it just may turn out that what Sigma may have discovered is that the color information does not need to be nearly as etched as the luminance information in order to achieve a stunning image as was done in the previous generation of Foveon sensors.

    Again, only time and testing will tell.

    P
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ute View Post
    I really do not like the design but it could look like a turd in a punchbowl as long as it performs well and the price is reasonable.

    The turd must feel good in the hand, too (I can't believe I just said that)!
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  16. #66
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    So to review where we are (rounded numbers):

    Old Foveon: 15 + 15 + 15 mp = circa 45mp

    New sensor: 20 + 5 + 5mp = circa 30mp

    What I am not sure about is how much influence the blue (20mp) layer will have with predominantly red or green images. One of the problems with mosaic (Bayer) sensors is the relative lack of red pixels. With the revised "Foveon" design, are we not looking at the exact same problem?

    Once one moves away from the pure foveon RGB design, I can see issues with interpolation and possibly with aliasing etc.

    In short, I don't see how this can be described as higher resolution sensor when the total number of pixels across the three layers is lower.
    SO, wow, a lower res camera from the old model. Only Sigma would have the courage to do this and I now suspect it signals a better IQ image from the DPxQs. Why would they do this? unless there is something to gain in IQ. Could it be they have realised you don't need more pixels for the enlargements we make, just better pixels!

    These cameras are by far going to be the most interesting IQ to examine for a long time.
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  17. #67
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    "only time and testing will tell."

    This.

    The rest is pure speculation.

  18. #68
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Size comparison of the Sigma DP heritage here - Compact Camera Meter

    Bigger than I thought but still ok.

    Not as big as this -

  19. #69
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Sigma are certainly full of surprises and are taking the fight to more established brands with innovative cameras and lenses. As a huge fan of the current Merrill range, I hope these new quattros are a step in the right direction. Perhaps more importantly, I hope they foreshadow a full frame version, perhaps a DSLR.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Hi Quentin,
    And it just may turn out that what Sigma may have discovered is that the color information does not need to be nearly as etched as the luminance information in order to achieve a stunning image as was done in the previous generation of Foveon sensors.

    Again, only time and testing will tell.

    P
    The discovery that luminance information is more important has been done a long time ago. Texture compression of graphic processors relies on this fact to keep reasonably good detail while compressing images for textures.

    I am expecting better even if there are a few new quirks, because the previous sensor (Merrill) was very noisy and this design should avoid a lot of that relatively speaking.

    - Ricardo

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Thom Hogan has an interesting blurb on this, after some contacts:

    What Should We Make of Sigma? | Gearophile | Thom Hogan

    Skip to : "Update: after talking to several..."

    - Ricardo

  22. #72
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by raist3d View Post
    Thom Hogan has an interesting blurb on this, after some contacts:

    What Should We Make of Sigma? | Gearophile | Thom Hogan

    Skip to : "Update: after talking to several..."

    - Ricardo
    A slightly disappointing article, as it is unnecessarily condescending.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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  23. #73
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    A slightly disappointing article, as it is unnecessarily condescending.
    I agree. But it is good that bloggers make the buzz everywhere. Talking about SIGMA, in good or bad, is always good for SIGMA.

    The more I think about the new sensor the more I salivate.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  24. #74
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I'm a proud owner of 2 Sigma Merrill's. A DP1 and 2.

    I love both and they are my primary cameras.

    I have found workarounds for all of their shortcomings.

    Being primarily a Landscape shooter I rarely have a need to increase sensitivity beyond
    400 ISO.

    If I want to shoot in lower light I just increase my exposure time and use a tripod.

    In fact I always use a tripod with these cameras.

    Unless there is a significant improvement in image quality and the price is under $1000
    I see no need to purchase another one.

    The Merrill's are selling for around $500.

    Let's say this one goes for around a $1000.

    Will it be twice as good ?


  25. #75
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ute View Post
    I'm a proud owner of 2 Sigma Merrill's. A DP1 and 2.

    I love both and they are my primary cameras.

    I have found workarounds for all of their shortcomings.

    Being primarily a Landscape shooter I rarely have a need to increase sensitivity beyond
    400 ISO.

    If I want to shoot in lower light I just increase my exposure time and use a tripod.

    In fact I always use a tripod with these cameras.

    Unless there is a significant improvement in image quality and the price is under $1000
    I see no need to purchase another one.

    The Merrill's are selling for around $500.

    Let's say this one goes for around a $1000.

    Will it be twice as good ?



    I agree with you. I too most always use a tripod and have found workarounds for the camera. The biggest issue I have is the LCD display. I use a Hoodman when necessary, and switching the camera to portrait position sometimes is extra difficult for me to see. I equate using a DPM like a tiny 4x5" without movements. I would like an EVF, but that does not seem to be on table. What I always do prior to purchasing something new that I am interested in, is to wait for the initial buyers experience, look at their work and see if it is worth the money and effort. Right now I am encouraged by Sigma and hope their data collection might nudge them to look at adding an EVF, otherwise I will not give $1000 to something that I pretty much already use effectively.

    Darr
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com
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  26. #76
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    I agree with you. I too most always use a tripod and have found workarounds for the camera. The biggest issue I have is the LCD display. I use a Hoodman when necessary, and switching the camera to portrait position sometimes is extra difficult for me to see. I equate using a DPM like a tiny 4x5" without movements. I would like an EVF, but that does not seem to be on table. What I always do prior to purchasing something new that I am interested in, is to wait for the initial buyers experience, look at their work and see if it is worth the money and effort. Right now I am encouraged by Sigma and hope their data collection might nudge them to look at adding an EVF, otherwise I will not give $1000 to something that I pretty much already use effectively.

    Darr
    greetings Darr-

    Same plan of action for me regarding the new ones.

    I use the Hoodman to overcome the the lack of a VF

    I would also like that EVF option.
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  27. #77
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    How bout changing the SD1 to a mirrorless design and include the new sensor ?

    Or go all the way and just make it FF ?


  28. #78
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Last edited by Hulyss Bowman; 12th February 2014 at 14:31.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  29. #79
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Have a look also at Kazuto Yamaki's twitter thread - https://twitter.com/KazutoYamaki

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    It seems like whatever arca swiss bracket get made for these could be quite different then what I am used to.

  31. #81
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Is it just the angle or me? but the DP1Q looks thicker and not as wide as the DP3Q ?

  32. #82
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    It's just you.

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  33. #83
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Some news:

    - Electronic level and histogram are available even in Manual Focus mode.
    - Little movable part on the door to allow constant power feeding with SAC 6 adapter.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  34. #84
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    It seems that Sigma has fixed many of the perceived shortcomings of the Merrill's by
    improving the functionality of the camera which is an excellent thing.

    What literally remains to be seen is whether or not they have done so at the cost of image quality ?

    Since they took all this trouble to improve the camera one wonders why they did not
    go further by introducing an EVF and upgrading the autofocus system ?

    Both of which are needed items IMO.

    The price of the new models also greatly factors in the decision of whether or not to buy a new one.

    As the Merrill's can now be had for perhaps 1/2 the price or maybe even less.

    One wonders if the new DP's will be twice as good ?

    Guess we'll find out in the coming months as the inevitable comparisons are made.

  35. #85
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    A slightly disappointing article, as it is unnecessarily condescending.
    Quentin, I agree with you in some levels, and sorry I wasn't more clear- what I found most interesting was the update section. I know what you mean though. With Thom I usually try to filter out the good from the less good, as I think sometimes he does say sound things.

    -= Ricardo

  36. #86
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Love the half cases!

    LouisB

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Sigma Quattro could be (likely be) an excellent monochrome camera
    -------------------
    Taking out the discussion of the color aspect of the sensor aside, what I find really exciting is that the new Foveon sensor since the top layer according to several data points that have chimed in, is mostly measuring Luminance, this means the camera could make for a truly superb monochrome camera.

    Doing B&W color filter simulations would knock down the acuity a bit as it relies on the lower chroma resolution data to do so, but as a neutral monochrome camera, it should be virtually almost the same as a monochrome camera of full on 19.6 MP spatial points of resolution with no gaps in luminance types like a CFA sensor (Bayer or Xtrans).

    If Sigma managed to improve the noise much at that resolution, this could be the best monochrome camera under quite a range of price range. I am quite excited about this prospect because the detail and now with 14-bit RAW - the tonality should be quite high. Crossing fingers the usable ISO in B&W improved quite a bit, but even then in a reasonable range of ISOs it will most likely be phenomenal/spectacular.

    I wouldn't mind having to shoot color in "low raw" to get a higher quality color capture at higher ISO while using full on B&W for the high resolution shots.
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  38. #88
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    On the resolution of the Quattro sensor:

    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I have both the DP1 Merrill and DP2 Merrill (old school?). My plan right now is to get the dp3 quattro ASAP, rounding out my collection. I really love the bold design!

  40. #90
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by mezzoduomo View Post
    I have both the DP1 Merrill and DP2 Merrill (old school?). My plan right now is to get the dp3 quattro ASAP, rounding out my collection. I really love the bold design!
    I might do the same.

    I await the testing and pricing first.

    Other issue I have is that I mostly use the DP1.

  41. #91
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    On the resolution of the Quattro sensor:

    Yup but that resolution for Luminance, not for color. Color resolution is reduced to 1/4th. But the Merrill was never really giving full X3 resolution either due to noise and other issues. Notice those are black and white lines, not red or green.

    - Ricardo

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    It's a bit tricky to tell from that slide but to my eyes those resolution figures look a bit dubious. It looks to me like they have been measured from within an aliased region. If you look above the indicated cut off point the chart looks like it has lost the 9 lines. At the point where they chose to measure they seem to have come back but then they disappear after that. Surely the correct point to decide max resolution is at the first point that the nine lines are lost to aliasing?

    I could be wrong as this is a picture of a picture but that is what it looks like to me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    On the resolution of the Quattro sensor:


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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    It's a bit tricky to tell from that slide but to my eyes those resolution figures look a bit dubious. It looks to me like they have been measured from within an aliased region. If you look above the indicated cut off point the chart looks like it has lost the 9 lines. At the point where they chose to measure they seem to have come back but then they disappear after that. Surely the correct point to decide max resolution is at the first point that the nine lines are lost to aliasing?

    I could be wrong as this is a picture of a picture but that is what it looks like to me...
    I don't think it's fair to judge from the picture of a screenshot of a lens test! They would look pretty stupid if they deliberately gave false information on a test like that and were exposed later when DXO gets their hands on a camera...

  44. #94
    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    The grips are massive.
    I look at the picture bellow and I cannot stop thinking how awesome it would be to see a micro 4/3 mount on this body


  45. #95
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Some explanations from da Boss :

    CP+2014
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  46. #96
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    One question I have is why the lens on the DP2q has grown in size so much. The filter size has gone from 46mm to 58mm. The barrel diameter is (obviously) wider. I wonder what has changed?

    LouisB
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    My new book "Whitechapel in 50 BUildings", Flikr Stream, www.louisberk.com
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  47. #97
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    One question I have is why the lens on the DP2q has grown in size so much. The filter size has gone from 46mm to 58mm. The barrel diameter is (obviously) wider. I wonder what has changed?

    LouisB
    49mm on the DP2 Merrill Louis.
    I suspect there has been lens tweaks. Perhaps to better cover the sensor to improve vignetting.

  48. #98
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    The grips are massive.
    I look at the picture bellow and I cannot stop thinking how awesome it would be to see a micro 4/3 mount on this body
    [/IMG]
    It would ruin the camera. The lenses on the DP 's are matched to the sensor and body for maximum resolving ability. The constraints of a mount are all gone. Many/all/most m43 lens designs are needing software corrections and of course m43 can't cover the Foveon sensor size as it stands now. I think you would take a IQ hit if it was tried.

    This guy did it for M mount - http://leicarumors.com/2013/04/02/yo...-for-300.aspx/

    But I will stick to the Sigma lens.

    I have an EM-5 but I also often take a DP2 Merrill. It all depends on the "job" and the mood.
    Last edited by Tim; 14th February 2014 at 23:09.
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  49. #99
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    49mm on the DP2 Merrill Louis.
    I suspect there has been lens tweaks. Perhaps to better cover the sensor to improve vignetting.
    Ahh, yes, you are right. It is still a fair change in size and it would mean having to buy yet another Lee Seven5 adapter!

    LouisB

  50. #100
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    49mm on the DP2 Merrill Louis.
    I suspect there has been lens tweaks. Perhaps to better cover the sensor to improve vignetting.
    No, absolutely not.

    The optical formula, glass used and all are strictly the same.

    The lens is bigger because Focus motor and housing are not the same. There is also wires to the AF assist beam at the front of the lens.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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