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Thread: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

  1. #1
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    According to Sigma rumours - strange looking bodies...

    http://sigma-rumors.com/2014/02/new-...camera-leaked/

    LouisB
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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Weird but interesting. All that matters to me is - is the image quality as, or better than, the current models?
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Greetings
    I'll let you know, but I'm guessing it will be better in the ISO range and noise areas.

    R. Jones

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    Senior Member Malina DZ's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    If they feature APS-C sensor and the same F2.8 lens, I'm not buying it.
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    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Thanks Louis.

    I think this explains the recent price drops.

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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I am considering a DP3m. Perhaps worth waiting for these or I could go a closeout price on the old model.

    I can only hope there is some kind of IQ improvement.

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    My bet is better ISO performance and a new sensor also.

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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I hope it is true. I thought maybe they were abandoning the market with such extreme price drops (a new DP1M is down to £399 at one UK shop). They would have to improve IQ as I doubt demand would be increased just by new styling.

    LouisB

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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Is it just me, or is it possible these images are fakes? If they are the faker has gone to the trouble to make up the Quattro name.

    The design is fairly unusual, while it would not stop me buying one for the Sigma IQ, I'd prefer something more "standard" in design.

    I can hope that they have sorted the DP2m colour issues in this version.

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by etermes View Post
    Great find.

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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by etermes View Post
    So it seems. And there is another link about them here - Sigma's New DP Quatro Cameras Feature Medium Format Quality, Ugly Looks - The Phoblographer

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    The hump on the right is sticking out in a very uncommon direction. It looks nice but would it hold well?

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Will review it against DP2m and DP2x. Stay tuned in the next months, this beast will pop out a bit before summer.

    Point is the major problems of the current foveon technology is fixed with this new chip.

    - The files weight less.

    - The processing time in camera is far quicker, New chip AND new sensor. It is designed to be quick and efficient.

    - Battery autonomy.

    - New SPP.

    - 14 bits raw vs 12 bit.

    - Better dynamic range, by far.

    It is still a foveon chip, extremely optimized. The 4.5 mp RED and GREEN layers are what SIGMA thought would be essential for color capturing.

    And for the design, you'll get used to it.

    Now, this architecture might be very interesting because it merge speed and foveon advantages. It is probably now possible to go full frame.
    Last edited by Hulyss Bowman; 10th February 2014 at 03:19.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    When I first glanced at it I thought it could maybe have a micro 4/3 mount but no such luck. It looks like I won´t be changing systems soon.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Over the world many ppl think that the new sensor is not a "true" Foveon anymore, and they are wrong.

    It is still a full 3 layers sensor. Just look at the picture below :



    The signal is captured on the 3 layers, as usual.

    The thing is that the GREEN and RED layers have much bigger pixels, 4 pixels binned in one. That is done for the CAPTION part.

    The signal after processing is pretty simple, without any interpolations as some said: This is division of the GREEN and RED layers in a certain %age, after the caption.

    The whole trick is in the binning technology.

    The RED and GREEN layers have the same surface as the Blue layer : 23.5×15.7mm

    On top of that, we go from 15mP to 20mP, 30% more resolution.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Micro 4/3 could really benefit from a similar technology. I would really considered leaving the NEX sytem if they ever did adopt a technology like this.

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    Senior Member segedi's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    And still no EVF?
    Segedi.com

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Over the world many ppl think that the new sensor is not a "true" Foveon anymore, and they are wrong.

    It is still a full 3 layers sensor. Just look at the picture below :



    The signal is captured on the 3 layers, as usual.

    The thing is that the GREEN and RED layers have much bigger pixels, 4 pixels binned in one. That is done for the CAPTION part.

    The signal after processing is pretty simple, without any interpolations as some said: This is division of the GREEN and RED layers in a certain %age, after the caption.

    The whole trick is in the binning technology.

    The RED and GREEN layers have the same surface as the Blue layer : 23.5×15.7mm

    On top of that, we go from 15mP to 20mP, 30% more resolution.
    Huyless,

    From what I can tell it's actually a VERY clever approach to dealing with several issues that have confounded this technology. As I discovered fiddling with SPP monochrome files by using SPP's 'color wheel' to select only top layer information, the files were surprisingly clean and sharp at ISO's as high as ISO 4000. Sigma apparently concluded that it was more important to retain luminance cleanliness and compromise color (R & G) just a tad (and that may turn out to be not a tad at all). This way the Foveon sensor with 19.6 million photo sites on the top layer provide nearly 80% of the image information (and blue channel) and relegating the lower G and R channels for providing ONLY color information and no luminance.

    By letting the top layer essentially 'draw' the image while providing the traditional 'blue' channel information and letting the lower 'vertically aligned' layers stacked directly below it to supply the ONLY the corresponding Red and Green information I can see how this might result in some impressive files never thought achievable before with a Foveon sensor at higher ISOs. Black and white, like with a Leica Monochrom, should remain impressive if not even moreso with the increase in surface resolution/pixel count.

    In other areas, while many may be aghast with the, shall we say, 'unconventional' product design, I can see the ergonomic benefits (think Dvorak keyboards for computers). Again, only hands on experience will tell but I suspect Sigma's penchant for minimalist engineering will bear them out. Plus, in their own unique way (as always), it appears Sigma may have also addressed the underpowered battery issue by allowing for (1) a larger unit and (2) with the new sensor and processing approach that needs far less image information to process files that are smaller than previously, less power is needed per shot--another battery capacity extending improvement.

    Now if only the AF would be a tad swifter in lower light. Progress...progress...

    P
    Life is an infinite series of moments called..."now".
    My job is to capture them.

  21. #21
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Huyless,

    From what I can tell it's actually a VERY clever approach to dealing with several issues that have confounded this technology. As I discovered fiddling with SPP monochrome files by using SPP's 'color wheel' to select only top layer information, the files were surprisingly clean and sharp at ISO's as high as ISO 4000. Sigma apparently concluded that it was more important to retain luminance cleanliness and compromise color (R & G) just a tad (and that may turn out to be not a tad at all). This way the Foveon sensor with 19.6 million photo sites on the top layer provide nearly 80% of the image information (and blue channel) and relegating the lower G and R channels for providing ONLY color information and no luminance.

    By letting the top layer essentially 'draw' the image while providing the traditional 'blue' channel information and letting the lower 'vertically aligned' layers stacked directly below it to supply the ONLY the corresponding Red and Green information I can see how this might result in some impressive files never thought achievable before with a Foveon sensor at higher ISOs. Black and white, like with a Leica Monochrom, should remain impressive if not even moreso with the increase in surface resolution/pixel count.

    In other areas, while many may be aghast with the, shall we say, 'unconventional' product design, I can see the ergonomic benefits (think Dvorak keyboards for computers). Again, only hands on experience will tell but I suspect Sigma's penchant for minimalist engineering will bear them out. Plus, in their own unique way (as always), it appears Sigma may have also addressed the underpowered battery issue by allowing for (1) a larger unit and (2) with the new sensor and processing approach that needs far less image information to process files that are smaller than previously, less power is needed per shot--another battery capacity extending improvement.

    Now if only the AF would be a tad swifter in lower light. Progress...progress...

    P
    Peter-

    Kudos to you for having discovered that on your own.

    Any concern on the effect the new sensor will have on color rendition ?

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    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I'm unbelievably excited by these new cameras. The original DP2M changed my perception of compact cameras in general; the new ones, if they improve on the old, will simply take me further down a very happy and productive path.

    Well done Sigma.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I wouldn't be so quick to pat them on the back until you see the actual image quality.


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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ute View Post
    I wouldn't be so quick to pat them on the back until you see the actual image quality.

    Don't worry, Sigma's recent track record is pretty good. There is no point in releasing a new product inferior to the old. I hope ...
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Oh Siggy, please please please put either an EVF or at least an optical finder on it!
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    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Don't worry, Sigma's recent track record is pretty good. There is no point in releasing a new product inferior to the old. I hope ...
    Your work is wonderful.

    We all hope for better.

    One nitpick would have been the option for an EVF.

    I use a Hoodman. It's adequate but a bit clunky.

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ute View Post
    Peter-

    Kudos to you for having discovered that on your own.

    Any concern on the effect the new sensor will have on color rendition ?
    Thanks. It was one of those "I wonder what would happen if.." type experiments that surprised me when I noticed the color wheel when the version with SPP with monochrome was issued .

    But you raise a good question regarding color rendition. My guess is on the one hand the new sensor will at least be as accurate as pre-DP Merrill cameras since the pixel dimensions for the red and green channels and the topmost blue layer will be sampling equivalently larger spaces (the quad part) for that information as the previous cameras.

    But...on the other hand I also wonder whether there may be any inaccuracies from color values determined over a somewhat larger, less defined area from each of the 4.9 pixels per layer (and its equivalent on the top most layer) that will be superimposed or interpolated with the sharper, higher acutance image created by 19.6 million pixels deriving luminance information. Again, for the most part it may not be any worse than what a Bayer approach already does (regarding color) but in the some critical situations there may be some displeasure with the results.

    Again only time and testing will tell.
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    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Thanks. It was one of those "I wonder what would happen if.." type experiments that surprised me when I noticed the color wheel when the version with SPP with monochrome was issued .

    But you raise a good question regarding color rendition. My guess is on the one hand the new sensor will at least be as accurate as pre-DP Merrill cameras since the pixel dimensions for the red and green channels and the topmost blue layer will be sampling equivalently larger spaces (the quad part) for that information as the previous cameras.

    But...on the other hand I also wonder whether there may be any inaccuracies from color values determined over a somewhat larger, less defined area from each of the 4.9 pixels per layer (and its equivalent on the top most layer) that will be superimposed or interpolated with the sharper, higher acutance image created by 19.6 million pixels deriving luminance information. Again, for the most part it may not be any worse than what a Bayer approach already does (regarding color) but in the some critical situations there may be some displeasure with the results.

    Again only time and testing will tell.

    I think you posed an interest way of analyzing things.

    By comparing the color portion to the original DP's.

    We shall see.

    Since they are attempting to fix many of the common complaints: Noise at higher ISO's, processing speed, Battery life, and handling I wish they would have dealt with the lack of a viewfinder too.

    Guess you can't have everything. At least not yet.


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    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    There's an optional OVF.
    Brad Husick

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    The sensor chip does not appear to embody any improved electronics nor semiconductor fabrication. It trades away color resolution for less noise, a design choice that you may or may not like when you see results. Foveon technology has stalled or reached its end.

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I dunno, Charles. I'd say the technology may be more evolving or being tweaked to achieve a better result within a particular approach to sensor design no different than say Fuji achieved better results over existing Bayer configured sensors by reshuffling the array of RGB photo sites from a regular 4x4 pattern with 1R, 1B and 2G photo sites per quad to a larger area with more random photo sites. That simple tweak allowed them to have a Bayer-like sensor that no longer needed an AA filter as a fudge factor in interpolating the results. And they even improved high ISO results as well.
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    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    There's an optional OVF.
    Thanks but I've tried those on my Merril's and don't find them particularly useful.

    Also pretty expensive for what they offer IMO.

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    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles2 View Post
    The sensor chip does not appear to embody any improved electronics nor semiconductor fabrication. It trades away color resolution for less noise, a design choice that you may or may not like when you see results. Foveon technology has stalled or reached its end.
    I think that's premature but you are entitled to your opinion.


  34. #34
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Another thing that has been taken care of is that the new Quattro comes w a USB cable release.


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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    The thing is that the GREEN and RED layers have much bigger pixels, 4 pixels binned in one. That is done for the CAPTION part.

    The signal after processing is pretty simple, without any interpolations as some said: This is division of the GREEN and RED layers in a certain %age, after the caption.
    You actually have to interpolate clor now if you want to keep 19.6 megapixel spatial color resolution. So its not a Bayer interpolation but a different kind of de mosaic interpolation. It should still be easier / better than Bayer but may introduce new artifacts to deal with unique to this sensor.

    In that sense its no longer a "true" Fiveon but more like somewhere in the middle of Foveon and Bayer.

    The good news is that since the Merrill sensor was so noisy it could be argued that beore you never quite got full resolution in the "red" layer, at least once you hit iso 200 and up.

    You do have to interpolate color here to get full spatial color resolution. Note how the full amount of photo detectors is less than the previous foveon (but most likely still an overall better result)

    Other benefits: less circuitry in the green and red layer means less interference, less data - faster processing, less noise.

    Compared to an ideal noiseless x3 Merrill foveon this is a step back, but its the reality of implementing a current Merrill under current technology what will make this approach a step forward.

  36. #36
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I'm unbelievably excited by these new cameras. The original DP2M changed my perception of compact cameras in general; the new ones, if they improve on the old, will simply take me further down a very happy and productive path.

    Well done Sigma.
    I agree, I started with the DP2 and what that yielded in its package size was very surprising. I think these Quattro's will be quite small. Its almost as though Sigma have hacked away everything that is not part of the camera. I can't believe they would release a shape design like this without extensive testing, so I am sure it will be good.

    The DP's have been incredible value for money, bringing HBlad like IQ to the hands of users with limited budget. The bang for buck is not approached by anything else. Even the Sony RX1 was three times the price - hey! there are three Quattro's ... hmmmm.

    The DP is a sensor married to a great optic, I don't think they could perform like they do married to a m43 or other mount.

    I continue to remain excited.

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    The new form factor looks interesting to say the least.

    Personally, I would be happy with the DP2M as-is if it just was supported in ACR!

  38. #38
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by neilvan View Post
    The new form factor looks interesting to say the least.

    Personally, I would be happy with the DP2M as-is if it just was supported in ACR!
    I am not going to be in a hurry unless their is a huge improvement all the way
    round.

    As it stands now the Merrill's are a screaming good value.

    There prices have come down drastically w the announcement.


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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I'm excited. I own the DP3 Merrill and was about to buy the DP2 when and if the prices dropped a bit. Well, now I can wait for the Quatro. Why? We know the lens is great . . . it's the same lens. The lens should be designed for the Foveon sensor. Here's what looks new to me. If the image quality is 30% better (forget using MP's), then it will have higher resolution than the current Nikon D800. Why? It already close to the resolution of the D800. Second, this may be the second best b&w camera after the Leica MM. Why? The improvement is in the blue channel for luminance. Converting to b&w in the the new SP raw converter will optimize the quality of b&w. This is already true for the DP2/3 Merrills which produce great b&w images. Third, processing should be much faster now. I noticed on my dp3 merrill that the writing speed to the new, ultra fast cards only takes a second or so, but the preliminary image processing is what is slowing down the transfer. So, it should be much faster now. Fourth, the battery should be larger and last longer. Fifth, well high ISO levels remains an unknown. Sixth, economics. Look closely at the photo. Pure design "outside the box." Literally and so quite innovative. Look again and take away the grip and battery on the right hand side. Looks the same as the original dp merrill but thinner. And then someone said, let's just add a battery and grip on the right hands side! Look at the specs: it's lighter than the dp3 merrill. You can wear it around your neck with another camera. Finally, with the 1 and 2 lenses, it looks like it really could fit into a jacket pocket. Post finally, the tripod sits squarely under the middle of the lens. Adds up well. But it will attract attention for a while, won't it?

  40. #40
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I was considering / about to add another Merrill body - the DP3M. Now I think I will wait to see samples, and the price of both Quattro and Merrill (discounts) before making a decision.

    I may even now consider the DP1Q, but a lot depends on specs of lens.

    To save my fingers could we refer to them as DP2, DP2M, DP2Q etc ?

  41. #41
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by larryk View Post
    I'm excited. I own the DP3 Merrill and was about to buy the DP2 when and if the prices dropped a bit. Well, now I can wait for the Quatro. Why? We know the lens is great . . . it's the same lens. The lens should be designed for the Foveon sensor. Here's what looks new to me. If the image quality is 30% better (forget using MP's), then it will have higher resolution than the current Nikon D800. Why? It already close to the resolution of the D800. Second, this may be the second best b&w camera after the Leica MM. Why? The improvement is in the blue channel for luminance. Converting to b&w in the the new SP raw converter will optimize the quality of b&w. This is already true for the DP2/3 Merrills which produce great b&w images. Third, processing should be much faster now. I noticed on my dp3 merrill that the writing speed to the new, ultra fast cards only takes a second or so, but the preliminary image processing is what is slowing down the transfer. So, it should be much faster now. Fourth, the battery should be larger and last longer. Fifth, well high ISO levels remains an unknown. Sixth, economics. Look closely at the photo. Pure design "outside the box." Literally and so quite innovative. Look again and take away the grip and battery on the right hand side. Looks the same as the original dp merrill but thinner. And then someone said, let's just add a battery and grip on the right hands side! Look at the specs: it's lighter than the dp3 merrill. You can wear it around your neck with another camera. Finally, with the 1 and 2 lenses, it looks like it really could fit into a jacket pocket. Post finally, the tripod sits squarely under the middle of the lens. Adds up well. But it will attract attention for a while, won't it?
    You bring some very interesting points. One small change is the DP2M had a 49mm filter, the DP2Q looks to have 58mm, so I wonder if there may be a tweak to the lens requiring the bigger filter size?

    I hear you on the BW. A lot of people ask for a pure BW Ricoh GR for example. Using the Blue channel here may yield a interesting result. As for the body, I like the way they have reduced the body to be thin ala a Nex, leaving room for the battery in the grip. The design has warmed on me a lot. I'd like to see it next to something common as a size reference. I think they will be small cameras.

  42. #42
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I was considering / about to add another Merrill body - the DP3M. Now I think I will wait to see samples, and the price of both Quattro and Merrill (discounts) before making a decision.

    I may even now consider the DP1Q, but a lot depends on specs of lens.

    To save my fingers could we refer to them as DP2, DP2M, DP2Q etc ?

    Over the years I find myself using the DP1M more than the 2. Even though the image quality of the 2 is better overall IMO.

    I am primarily a landscape shooter and I have generally found that the WA
    work better for me.

    I would actually like to see a Sigma with an even wider lens.

    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  43. #43
    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I'm not crazy about the new thin elongated look.

    I added a "Franiec" grip to mine and they are very easy to use that way.

    The jury is out on the new ones.

  44. #44
    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ute View Post
    I would actually like to see a Sigma with an even wider lens.

    Oh, YES, a native 21mm equivalent would get my money.

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    I like the cinemascope aspect ratio.

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    Senior Member Malina DZ's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles2 View Post
    The sensor chip does not appear to embody any improved electronics nor semiconductor fabrication. It trades away color resolution for less noise, a design choice that you may or may not like when you see results. Foveon technology has stalled or reached its end.
    I see it the same way.
    The new 3-layer graph is a little confusing to me as well as the Quattro title without knowing the pixel pitch/pixel size of the R & G layers. On one hand, B layer area is 4 times larger than R or G layer pixel count wise, on the other, each layer has identical area coverage (23.5x15.7mm).
    I was loooking forward to Sigma's new processor cure of green/magenta color artifacts in shadows but not at the expense of R & G layer size. Hopefully, new Quattros don't lose the color detail DP Ms are famous for at iso100-200. Otherwise, I don't understand who Sigma targets these new models for? Glad the prices are going down for DP Ms though, and very excited about 50/1.4 Art.

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    Subscriber Member kit laughlin's Avatar
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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Ken, is that new ratio a simple crop? Interesting looking cameras, to be sure.

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    oh looks like a crop


    RAW HIGH T:5,424×3,616
    [21:9] JPEG SUPER-HIGH 7,680×3,296
    [3:2] JPEG SUPER-HIGH 7,680×5,120

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Yes, DP2M etc bargains.
    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I thought maybe they were abandoning the market with such extreme price drops (a new DP1M is down to £399 at one UK shop).
    £339.00 if anyone's interested.
    I wish I wanted one now.

    Sigma Digital Cameras | Clifton Cameras

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    Re: New Sigma DP Merrill's?

    Well this new design certainly seems to be polarising opinion, lots of haters over at FM, however I think the design looks fresh and interesting and was going to hold off completing my set with a DP1M until I saw the price mentioned above, Now I'm not sure what to do!

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