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Thread: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

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    WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    I wonder what everyone saves their Sigma Photo Pro files as? Is it in sRGB (Standard Color gamma=2.2) or ProPhoto RGB? Or another choice in SPP?

    The reason why I ask is that when I go to try to print on an internet website such as Flickr, it states that it can't print that file. I am wonder then if all websites say the same thing, like snapFish, Shutterfly, or a professional lab?

    I've read that sRGB doesn't have all of the information in it. Should I not save as that then?

    I saved as ProPhoto RGB in 16 bit Tiff and opened in Photoshop CS6.

    I would really like to know how to save these files so that I can have them printed, and not lose valuable RAW information.

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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    I save all my Sigma files as ProPhoto 16 bit TIFF in my library and work derivatives from there.

    Most commercial printing labs use JPEG and/or TIFF. I have no experience with Flickr, snapFish, Shutterfly, etc., but was told by a friend that prints commercially that a high resolution JPEG in CMYK mode saved at a quality of 10 or greater produces more accurate tones, especially for digital printing than other file formats.

    I personally print up to 17x22" in house via an Epson 3880 + ImagePrint and my files are prepared as TIFF. When sending larger files out to a lab, I send JPEG, but they are made fresh from the TIFF file.

    Hope this helps,
    Darr
    Last edited by darr; 28th January 2015 at 15:05.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lainer View Post
    I wonder what everyone saves their Sigma Photo Pro files as? Is it in sRGB (Standard Color gamma=2.2) or ProPhoto RGB? Or another choice in SPP?
    It depends on how you use SPP and what the final destination is. Personally, I use SPP to convert X3Fs in as neutral a manner as possible, including backing off their 'zero' sharpening quite a bit and including exposure compensation. Everything else goes to RawTherapee as ProPhoto 16-bit TIFF - from where I save according to the intended use of the image, i.e. web, gallery posting or just viewing on my monitor (I don't print).

    And the intended use can vary a lot. GIF is perfectly OK for graphs. PNG is suitable for some images. JPEG for anything else.

    Did you know that a JPEG can be saved with a ProPhoto profile? (the question is a red herring, though, not really relevant to this discussion).

    The reason why I ask is that when I go to try to print on an internet website such as Flickr, it states that it can't print that file. I am wonder then if all websites say the same thing, like snapFish, Shutterfly, or a professional lab?

    I've read that sRGB doesn't have all of the information in it. Should I not save as that then?
    "the information" is a bit vague. The major loss in sRGB is due to the color gamut compared to ProPhoto. Flower shots can suffer if not processed right.

    I would really like to know how to save these files so that I can have them printed, and not lose valuable RAW information.
    There's that "I" word again

    As soon as you open an X3F file in SPP, it is converted to a working file on your computer. The working file is in the Kodak ROMM format which is about the same as ProPhoto, only it's linear, AFAIK. What you see on-screen is that file transformed to sRGB by SPP or the screen driver, not sure which.

    So I save the keepers in their X3F format. Any TIFFs used on the way to my normal sRGB files (either JPEG or PNG or GIF) get trashed.

    best,

    Ted

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    I save the file in tiff format usually Pro photo, then open in Photoshop CS6 to work on and change to JPEG for uploading to Flickr and oyjer websites. I make Blurb photo books, which used to be part of Flickr. Anyway, I was just seeing what Flickr would do to print a file, and it wouldn't do in ProPhoto Color mode.

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Can anyone else explain this color profile stuff? It's very confusing. I would like to know someone's step-by-step file production. I use Photoshop, not lightroom. Is there a better software program after using SPP to change file to ProPhoto?

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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lainer View Post
    Can anyone else explain this color profile stuff? It's very confusing. I would like to know someone's step-by-step file production. I use Photoshop, not lightroom. Is there a better software program after using SPP to change file to ProPhoto?
    Learning about color space is not as simple as explaining it in a forum message. Here is a link to an ASMP page that gives detailed explanations of the color spaces and includes a video of color space models in relation to each other.

    I recommend using Lightroom (LR) in your workflow as it serves as a library for your images, has the Adobe Camera RAW (ACR) processor, and can work seamlessly with Photoshop (PS) as well as do a lot of image tweaking and exporting of files in different color spaces, sizes, etc. Here is a short PDF article that explains Color Management in Lightroom.

    I use PS as a retouching tool and have never liked Bridge for cataloging.

    My workflow for Sigma Foveon files is quite simple:
    1. RAW files are place in a folder on my HD
    2. Open SPP, select folder and import files
    3. Make minor tweaks as necessary
    4. Select files for export
    5. Choose TIFF, 16 Bit, ProPhoto
    6. Export TIFFs into original folder
    7. Close SPP
    8. Open LR, import TIFFS into library
    9. Tweak files in LR and PS as necessary
    10. Files remain in LR library for archiving and exporting
    Hope this helps,
    Darr

    PS: You will need to use SPP for the RAW conversion of Foveon files. Someone else can chime in if they know of another RAW processor for Foveon files, as I do not, nor would I use it as my workflow above does me well.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    PS: You will need to use SPP for the RAW conversion of Foveon files. Someone else can chime in if they know of another RAW processor for Foveon files, as I do not, nor would I use it as my workflow above does me well.
    We need to expand "Foveon Files" a bit. Sigma has change their X3F format a good few times, rendering converters unusable for later formats.

    Pre-Merrill and non-AFE equipped cameras have several possible converters.

    AFE-equipped cameras (e.g. SD15 and some DP's) will open but the colors are wrong.

    Merrill cameras left most converters behind, irritating a good few people.

    As to Quattro . . . hmmmm.

    The only "converter" I know that opens them all is not even a converter. It is called RawDigger and is used for examining RAW files. But it can export a RGB image in 8-bit TIFF which would need quite a bit of work in e.g. LR or PS.

    As to Merrills - Helicon Filter for Windows and Irridient Developer for Mac are said to be good.

    Ted

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    Unhappy Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    [QUOTE=xpatUSA;623649]We need to expand "Foveon Files" a bit. Sigma has change their X3F format a good few times, rendering converters unusable for later formats.

    I have the DP2M and DP3M. I open the RAW files in SPP. Then I work on them. After which I save as a Tiff in sRGB (now ) and open in Photoshop CS 6 and finish up there. Is Irridient Developer is better at dealing with Foveon files? If so, I guess I need to try it for myself. Seems like a lot to get a good file from these cameras. I love the results, but man, what a task.

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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lainer View Post

    I have the DP2M and DP3M. I open the RAW files in SPP. Then I work on them. After which I save as a Tiff in sRGB (now ) and open in Photoshop CS 6 and finish up there.
    As per article link from ASMP above: sRGB - This color space is a small color space – it's often thought of as a lowest common denominator. Saving your initial TIFF in sRGB means you are throwing away a larger color space you will not be able to get back. You really should be saving your TIFFs in ProPhoto RGB, 16 bit.

    As per article link from ASMP: ProPhoto RGB - This color space was designed as a universal standard for high-bit image editing, and includes all the colors that the human eye can see. ProPhoto RGB is a very popular color space for experienced Photoshop users.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lainer View Post
    I have the DP2M and DP3M. I open the RAW files in SPP. Then I work on them. After which I save as a Tiff in sRGB (now ) and open in Photoshop CS 6 and finish up there. Is Irridient Developer is better at dealing with Foveon files? If so, I guess I need to try it for myself. Seems like a lot to get a good file from these cameras. I love the results, but man, what a task.
    Firstly, in our recent correspondence, remember that I said "The main use for ProPhoto is as the Working Space while editing, cropping, re-sizing, etc." So, when going from SPP to CS6, please stay in ProPhoto 16bit TIFF. Only when you are done post-processing, save the file for your intended output in sRGB.

    I usually throw my intermediate (TIFF) files away, keeping the X3Fs for really important shots.

    Secondly, Irridient Developer is well received, according to posts in the Sigma Camera forum at dpReview. As I hope you know, it only runs on a Mac. It is said to open those big files faster and with no 100-year waits after each adjustment. I believe Helicon Filter (Windows) will open Merrill files. Simple editing only.

    I sold my DP2M because of SPP slowness. I go from SPP 3.5.2 to RawTherapee 4.2.3.

    Ted

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    In trying to answer the OP question as I understood it.
    Save file from SPP as a tiff and Adobe RGB.
    To send to an online printer like snapfish a tiff is way too much information. So, after saving your work as a tiff for yourself, save as sRGB jpeg to have printed online.
    We do that often here at work and that is what works.
    My $.02 worth.
    Robert

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    sRGB is a smaller colorspace, so if you want to print dont use it, its main advantage is the use in applications without colormanagment like webbrowsers

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by xpatUSA View Post
    ....Irridient Developer is well received, according to posts in the Sigma Camera forum at dpReview. As I hope you know, it only runs on a Mac. It is said to open those big files faster and with no 100-year waits after each adjustment....
    IMO ID doesnt convert the RAW, it just reads the included JPEG

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    SnapFish only accepts sRGB files as is the case with several online printers.

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by foveon View Post
    IMO ID doesnt convert the RAW, it just reads the included JPEG
    People say that about FastStone Viewer, too, but it can be set to open the X3F raw data for review and editing. I do it all the time (pre-Merrill though). The test is that, usually, the catalog thumbnails look different to the review image.

    Anybody here actually use Irridient?

    Ted

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    I have no doubt that saving my files in ProPhoto will hold most of the RAW data instead of saving in sRGB. My issue is when I do that and put this file online to print that the place I decide to print won't be able to print the ProPhoto file. Such is the case on Flickr's website. I tried clicking on the ProPhoto file to print it on Flickr and the site stated it couldn't be done. This is the problem I am running into and why I asked the original question. I do understand the file is best saved as a ProPhoto, but what good is it if I can't have the file printed with an online service? Perhaps many other online printing services are able to handle the PrPhoto file that I changed to a JPEG, but in Flickr's case, they do not allow it.


    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    As per article link from ASMP above: sRGB - This color space is a small color space it's often thought of as a lowest common denominator. Saving your initial TIFF in sRGB means you are throwing away a larger color space you will not be able to get back. You really should be saving your TIFFs in ProPhoto RGB, 16 bit.

    As per article link from ASMP: ProPhoto RGB - This color space was designed as a universal standard for high-bit image editing, and includes all the colors that the human eye can see. ProPhoto RGB is a very popular color space for experienced Photoshop users.

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Indeed. I have many files I saved in a project online that I utilize to print and now that I've saved them in chronological order as ProPhoto files, and many online printing services refuse them, I will have to back track to find those files and change them to sRGB, something I was trying to avoid doing due to the amount of time and irritation involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by OlderThenDirt View Post
    SnapFish only accepts sRGB files as is the case with several online printers.

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    Angry Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    I saved my files as tiffs but in Pro Photo. Apparently many online services don't allow it and would prefer the sRGB format. Such a waste of important data.

    It's also something Sigma Corp should have stated in their literature to save a lot of time an aggravation when uploading to different sites for possible printing.




    Quote Originally Posted by OlderThenDirt View Post
    In trying to answer the OP question as I understood it.
    Save file from SPP as a tiff and Adobe RGB.
    To send to an online printer like snapfish a tiff is way too much information. So, after saving your work as a tiff for yourself, save as sRGB jpeg to have printed online.
    We do that often here at work and that is what works.
    My $.02 worth.
    Robert

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lainer View Post
    I have no doubt that saving my files in ProPhoto will hold most of the RAW data instead of saving in sRGB.
    Terminology: The phrase "the RAW data" is inappropriate. How about "color data" or "captured colors"?

    My issue is when I do that and put this file online to print that the place I decide to print won't be able to print the ProPhoto file. Such is the case on Flickr's website. I tried clicking on the ProPhoto file to print it on Flickr and the site stated it couldn't be done. This is the problem I am running into and why I asked the original question. I do understand the file is best saved as a ProPhoto, but what good is it if I can't have the file printed with an online service? Perhaps many other online printing services are able to handle the PrPhoto file that I changed to a JPEG, but in Flickr's case, they do not allow it.
    A lot of misunderstanding there. As some have already said, we use ProPhoto when editing because of it's wide color gamut. Yes, we can 'save as' a big fat 16bit ProPhoto TIFF if we must (personally I don't, for my own reasons). But there comes a time when, inevitably, your ProPhoto image must be converted to suit the final required output, whether that is for the web or for printing. That conversion is best done by you to your satisfaction, not by somebody elses' browser and not by some printing outfit running their standard conversion whether it suits your image or not. In other words, the image will have to be converted and you should do it - not some unknown processor.

    Case in point: I shoot a stunning yellow flower in full sunlight; I open the pre-Merrill X3F in ACR 5.4. It looks horrible with the saturated parts looking "smeared". The reason: the captured yellows are way out-of-gamut for sRGB which is what ACR's review image color space is.

    I open the same X3F in SPP 3.5.2, set to ProPhoto working space. The review image looks much, much better. After adjustment, I 'save as' sRGB to post on-line. But, sadly, the save image goes back to only slightly better than ACR's, with a lot of blues clipped to zero.

    What to do?

    This is the moment when we have to start reading about "rendering intent" which I will not go into here but there are ways to convert a highly saturated image so that the image retains a more natural look. In particular, google "perceptual rendering intent".

    Which brings us back to ICC profiles; simple display profiles (the ones that use matrix conversion) will not give perceptual rendering intent on your screen even if you so select it. (I do have one that does, if anyone's interested).

    Note that I am not recommending perceptual rendering intent for all images: what you get from your editor as default is good enough for many.

    Color management . . . don't leave home without it

    Ted
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 12th February 2015 at 05:52.

  20. #20
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Maybe the OP needs to shoot in JPEG mode and be done with it.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com

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    Re: WHAT Sigma DP Merrill Color Profiles?

    Maybe

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