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Thread: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

  1. #51
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Forsman View Post
    Oh no, I made a typo! Never use two quotation marks in a row in the command promt.
    The row to modify should read:
    cd "C:\Users\Quentin...ect. etc. etc.\Pictures\Actual Folder" <Press Enter>
    ... so no double ""
    Sorry for the confusion. I hope I will not find more typos.

    /Daniel
    I have had a few issues using the command line, but better luck dragging and dropping files on the .exe file. This of course means no modifiers, but it does do a basic decode job.

    It looks like a little more highlight recovery is possible, but at the expense of some local contrast.

    If anyone wants to try out the new software, here is a link to the X3F "Kitchen" file I used to illustrate the issue earlier in this thread: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...%20Files/1.X3F
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    My brain hurts OK,. already, I will give it a try...
    A word of caution, if I may. I would be inclined to let the DPR thread run it's course before jumping in at half-cock. For example, there are still some highlight issues that can be quite off-putting:

    http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56177878

    Also, the DNG linear files are not supported by all viewers. Doesn't bother be too much - 16bit TIFF ProPhoto is fine for going from x3f_restore to RawTherapee.

    The good news is that someone has already come up with a "front end" that gets around having to use the command-line. Haven't used it yet.

    My interest is in something speedy (7-secs for a high-res X3F on my machine) and their NR is excellent. Of course we live in different worlds. I am still Adobe-free by choice and can happily play around all day in RawTherapee to get something just right. I'm sure that you don't have that luxury . .

    Ted

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by xpatUSA View Post
    A word of caution, if I may. I would be inclined to let the DPR thread run it's course before jumping in at half-cock. For example, there are still some highlight issues that can be quite off-putting:

    http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56177878

    Also, the DNG linear files are not supported by all viewers. Doesn't bother be too much - 16bit TIFF ProPhoto is fine for going from x3f_restore to RawTherapee.

    The good news is that someone has already come up with a "front end" that gets around having to use the command-line. Haven't used it yet.

    My interest is in something speedy (7-secs for a high-res X3F on my machine) and their NR is excellent. Of course we live in different worlds. I am still Adobe-free by choice and can happily play around all day in RawTherapee to get something just right. I'm sure that you don't have that luxury . .

    Ted
    Something very wrong using the front end. NR good, but new highlight issues..
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I have had a few issues using the command line, but better luck dragging and dropping files on the .exe file. This of course means no modifiers, but it does do a basic decode job.

    It looks like a little more highlight recovery is possible, but at the expense of some local contrast.

    If anyone wants to try out the new software, here is a link to the X3F "Kitchen" file I used to illustrate the issue earlier in this thread: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...%20Files/1.X3F
    Yes, command line isn't that exciting for all of us (not me either). If you drop the file on the exe-file you will unfortunately not get the very nice noise reduction. But now you have the possibility to use a front end... see Ted's post.
    Anyway, several things could have gone wrong with the command prompt. Like if you had the pictures on another drive than C:\ Then you have to write the drive letter first, like K: <enter> before writing the cd stuff. Well, now you won't need it anyway, would you?
    /Daniel

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Something very wrong using the front end. NR good, but new highlight issues..
    Sorry, was typing my suggestions while you did post your experience. Well, I will look at the dropbox file.
    /Daniel

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Something very wrong using the front end. NR good, but new highlight issues..
    OK, its pretty good, if one converts to a DNG file with only noise reduction ticked.

    Now the major issue is a colour cast - pink / purple right, blue left. This is presumably corrected by SPP automatically, a relatively easy task with a fixed lens camera, possibly it would be more difficult with interchangeable lenses.

    Correct that cast and we might be in business...

    EDIT: I'm using a different X3F file, with a large area of sky, where the cast is more clearly visible.

    This is back to the future - I used to own a Kodak 14n, later 14nx.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Something very wrong using the front end. NR good, but new highlight issues..
    Some of the highlights were better now:
    Name:  better highlight.jpg
Views: 238
Size:  20.8 KB

    Still blown out bananas. But this is a territory where FOVEON has never excelled (at least to my knowledge), with indoor/mixed lighting.
    What about the new issues?
    I think that Kalpanika may open up a new possibility of using more exposure compensation, like -0.7 or even -1.0, without getting the "dreaded" noise. But that remains to be tested of course.

    /Daniel
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Forsman View Post
    Some of the highlights were better now:
    Name:  better highlight.jpg
Views: 238
Size:  20.8 KB

    Still blown out bananas. But this is a territory where FOVEON has never excelled (at least to my knowledge), with indoor/mixed lighting.
    What about the new issues?
    I think that Kalpanika may open up a new possibility of using more exposure compensation, like -0.7 or even -1.0, without getting the "dreaded" noise. But that remains to be tested of course.

    /Daniel
    Daniel

    It's good start. Imagine where this might lead with a little development?

    Bananas were over ripe anyway
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Here's my take, as regards the kitchen scene.

    Kalpanika's TIFF sRGB output, wb = Flash:



    Much the same as previous renditions.

    However, RawDigger shows that there is a fair bit of area with totally blown (well full) pixels. Ordinarily, this would not matter too much but I've already found that blown raw data is not handled gracefully by Kalpanika (see link I posted earlier).

    Here's the raw histogram for a selection around the bread-bin and the fruit showing, not surprisingly, specular highlights which should render as white and which sometimes did not. Actually it looks like fully blown is reliably white but just below attracts those odd yellow colors. Roland Karlsson did explain the effect in the DPR thread in response to my post on the subject.



    The tall spikes at the blown levels are, of course, the Quattro's more sensitive pixels that are used for over-exposure detection or summat.

    I hope they keep at it!

    Ted
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 20th July 2015 at 16:16.

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Still got my 14n, Quentin. It's still crap ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    OK, its pretty good, if one converts to a DNG file with only noise reduction ticked.

    Now the major issue is a colour cast - pink / purple right, blue left. This is presumably corrected by SPP automatically, a relatively easy task with a fixed lens camera, possibly it would be more difficult with interchangeable lenses.

    Correct that cast and we might be in business...

    EDIT: I'm using a different X3F file, with a large area of sky, where the cast is more clearly visible.

    This is back to the future - I used to own a Kodak 14n, later 14nx.

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by davemillier View Post
    Still got my 14n, Quentin. It's still crap ;-)
    It had one very good feature, Dave, the long exposure mode which could produce very low noise long exposure raw files incamera using dark frame subtraction

    By today's standards, its crap, but at the time, those 13.5mp files seemed huge!

    Still have my 14nx. Also a DCS 760, which was a better camera with very good 6mp files.

    Quenti
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    I tweaked a bit the code and I'm able to recover all now.

    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    I tweaked a bit the code and I'm able to recover all now.

    I am impressed! Is it the same RAW-file? If so, how on earth did you do that?
    /Daniel

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    I tweaked a bit the code and I'm able to recover all now.

    Outstanding! Now that's more like it.
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Excellent Hulyss
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    What is lost can't be recovered.

    But there is quick and ungeeky solutions to solve the problem without decades of coding :



    I know... I'm a troll

    More seriously, I'm looking at all this story here and on Dpr and I'm amazed by what I see: Ppl lost the last bits of rationalism left in any sigma subforums.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    How come that nobody here neither on DPR came with a better SPP conversion of this file ? Because yes, there is some problems but they are not THAT much pronounced.

    Simple SPP conversion:



    100% crop:



    This whole "public" coding adventure kalpasigma (whatever it's named) make more damage on Sigma reputation than any of my previous rants, period.

    In the eyes of a newcomer who is interested in Sigma cameras and "unluckily" fall on DpR threads like this, the pragmatic reaction is the following:

    IM NEVER GONNA BUY INTO THIS.

    The Quattro, like the Merril's predecessors blow yellows, especially glossy yellows. Spot measure is mandatory for indoor single shoot (or outdoor flower shoot) and also, like every sigma, custom WB + underexposure.

    Note to the geeks/devs/whatever : When WB set on 5000/5500k, most of the banana's blown yellow is recovered.

    Note2: The SPP results above can be achieved in many other ways, like expo -1.1/fill light +2 ...
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Well I don't understand your attitude. What is wrong woth discussing different tools and how to cope with problematic photos? Isn't that what the forums are made for? And what is wrong with the project of making a DNG-converter like Kalpanika, to make a Lightroom workflow? Has anybody claimed it is ready yet? No, the developers themselves wanted some testing, help and feedback. What is wrong with that? Has anybody claimed it to always give better results than SPP? Anyway, you make a good job of recovering the blown highlights, but isn't that through the 170 x 450 darker pixels in the Quattro sensor, that SPP uses when you tick that box? Without them, if you uncheck the Highlight box, it seems that SPP does no better than for example Kalpanika.
    Why not at least try to be be helpful instead of insulting and lecturing?

  19. #69
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Because without proper funds to develop a proper software, this venture lead nowhere. SPP still work better as the date of today.

    Because if, by a wonderful hazard, the guys manage to make a useful software who do not need a master degree in MSdos command lines to be used correctly, it will put sigma (an old international company) on shame.

    And because my point...

    "In the eyes of a newcomer who is interested in Sigma cameras and "unluckily" fall on DpR threads like this, the pragmatic reaction is the following:

    IM NEVER GONNA BUY INTO THIS.
    "

    ...is valid and factual.

    By the end of the coding/compilation process, SIGMA will have the time to launch new models, maybe new sensor design or new spp ...

    (thus, all this work might be flushed into oblivion).

    Just annoyed to see ppl wasting time and energy on this instead of making photography, just putting my foots into "normal" photographer who want to use an unconventional tool to make photography (the base essence of a photography forum).

    Also because 99% of the photographers are not technicians. They are photographers.

    So better way to let SIGMA recording the message, fixing the issues themselves. We paid for those cameras.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Because without proper funds to develop a proper software, this venture lead nowhere. SPP still work better as the date of today.

    Because if, by a wonderful hazard, the guys manage to make a useful software who do not need a master degree in MSdos command lines to be used correctly, it will put sigma (an old international company) on shame.

    And because my point...

    "In the eyes of a newcomer who is interested in Sigma cameras and "unluckily" fall on DpR threads like this, the pragmatic reaction is the following:

    IM NEVER GONNA BUY INTO THIS.
    "

    ...is valid and factual.

    By the end of the coding/compilation process, SIGMA will have the time to launch new models, maybe new sensor design or new spp ...

    (thus, all this work might be flushed into oblivion).

    Just annoyed to see ppl wasting time and energy on this instead of making photography, just putting my foots into "normal" photographer who want to use an unconventional tool to make photography (the base essence of a photography forum).

    Also because 99% of the photographers are not technicians. They are photographers.

    So better way to let SIGMA recording the message, fixing the issues themselves. We paid for those cameras.
    Well you'd better off to leave the logic to technicians You recognize that if your words are taken literal no one should waste their time and energy on coding Lightroom, Capture One etc. they should just be making photographs. And no one should waste time at this forum when it is raining outside (they should go out in their raincoats trying to get a merril-sharp picture of the misty water molecules) or just because they think the process of using the RAW-files and making adjustments could be fun, or just because they want to learn

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Because without proper funds to develop a proper software, this venture lead nowhere. SPP still work better as the date of today.

    Because if, by a wonderful hazard, the guys manage to make a useful software who do not need a master degree in MSdos command lines to be used correctly, it will put sigma (an old international company) on shame.
    Who said anything else? What you state is obvious, SPP works best as of today. SPP is a complete software. Kalpanika is only in a prototype-state. But I think you should learn a little bit about the use of a software like Kalpanika. It was not intended to be used manually from a command prompt, they just decided to let people test it in its current state. It could instead be used from within other softwares, without the user even noticing. Kalpanika was developed to be used transparently in a Lightroom workflow, and that is still their goal and I think that part of the project is not the hardest. I am pretty sure that a lot of the softwares you are using are accessing subroutines and applications in the same way.
    Last edited by Daniel Forsman; 23rd July 2015 at 02:52.

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Similar to Fuji's recent fortunes: despite Adobe's best efforts, as the most used RAW converter, X-Trans gets a bad press. Iridient Developer is a one-man team and yet possesses the best demosaicing and sharpening routines for X-Trans. Incredible and good news for everyone involved. N.B, Adobe are reported to still be working on X-Trans code due to pressure from other software, also good.
    I see a similar situation with X3F Extract so how is it a negative?
    Quattro will always do badly in reviews, and if Sigma choose to release a sensor with less than average DR and severe highlight clipping issues... Quattro has also suffered from VERY poor official sample galleries. I just don't see how Kalpanika is anything but positive. The very fact that they've released it under an open-source license shows their intent.
    I like choice and can see myself using both SPP and X3F Extract. It is no panacea but it's an impressive start given zero help from Sigma!

    P.S, to use X3F Extract is simple and straightforward. People will always shy away from the command line but it's wrong to be so flippant.

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Forsman View Post
    It was not intended to be used manually from a command prompt, they just decided to let people test it in its current state. It could instead be used from within other softwares, without the user even noticing. Kalpanika was developed to be used transparently in a Lightroom workflow, and that is still their goal and I think that part of the project is not the hardest. I am pretty sure that a lot of the softwares you are using are accessing subroutines and applications in the same way.
    Meanwhile, there is a front end GUI already out for x3f_extract (Kalpanika executable) which avoids the use of the command window.

    I tried x3f_extract but did not have anything that correctly opens their linear DNG export. So I tried their TIFF export which was less than satisfactory in the rendering of highlights.



    To their credit, they have never promoted the use of TIFF as being much good - emphasizing DNG as the export of choice.

    So, for my Adobe-free situation (yep, not even Flash let alone Reader), I'll stay with SPP 5.5.3 for now.

    A pity, 7-sec conversion time on my machine is quite superior compared with 100 years for SPP . . .

    Ted

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    I do not dismiss the talented work done nor the attention. It is generous and you want to help a community. What I dismiss is the lack of interactions between SIGMA and the team. SIGMA is commercial, the team is not. You speak about lightroom; how much funds and ppl was pulled out into lightroom project ?

    I'm logic and technician, building subroutines, applications, complex java and C# codes, sever communications and all. I know the problem, but I do it for myself. I'm my only referent/bank. I'm making virtual universes sized IRL like Alabama (so you might understand how a pain in the *** it can be). And actually it is working.

    This is just a word from a mad one man army coder, visual studio guru, to a team of generous coders : Be careful gentlemen, you might be disappointed at the end, if an end is possible. Disappointed because what you want/hope/desire might not be really spot on/achieved. You guys need funds and cohesion and SIGMA should hire you in a cave to decipher, in the joy, the complex foveon datas. You need total synergy with ACTUAL foveon designers/mathematicians.

    So in my head it is like trying to decipher enigma with a fork and a bean can. Macgyver style. With a lot of chance and time it might work but you know that you do not have this luxury. SIGMA might come with a total new design or component who invalidate your work. This what I'm trying to tell you.

    The magic of life might also give the additional punch to the team, to prove me how wrong I am (and it might be my initial intention, who know ? )

    To end this colossal non-photo related digression, here is some technician pov of Ithaca, my world (who might be finished in one year) :









    NOTA: Now I cross my fingers that xpatUSA will be able to run it on his Jurassic computer

    NOTA2: NEVER release "prototype" to the mass. Alpha test with friends, beta test with more friends and then release proper version (with real modern GUI!!!).
    Last edited by Hulyss Bowman; 23rd July 2015 at 05:36.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    NOTA: Now [Hulyss crosses his fingers] that xpatUSA will be able to run [Ithaca, whatever that is] on his Jurassic computer
    LOL

    Can't be much good if it won't run on a Dell Inspiron Win 7 64bit Core i5 6MB machine

    For people who keep mentioning 'zero communication' with Sigma, the very first post on DPR says:

    And Sigma mainly wanted us to improve high ISO - something we did not. Thanks Rudy Guttosch (Sigma USA) for very constructive conversations.
    Guttosch is a Foveon guy, BTW.

    Just sayin' . . .

    Ted
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    It will run on your computer even your phone

    Quote Originally Posted by xpatUSA View Post
    LOL

    Guttosch is a Foveon guy, BTW.

    Just sayin' . . .

    Ted
    If there is real interactions between sigma and the dev team, then the dev team should have the source code of SPP to start with. Just sayin'. There is a world between a conversation and an interaction.

    It won't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by tagscuderia View Post

    P.S, to use X3F Extract is simple and straightforward. People will always shy away from the command line but it's wrong to be so flippant.
    And people are right to shy away from it. Without proper GUI, nobody would use Androïd (Linux based) nor any other software. GUI is the base, the subtle link between technician brain and the mass. Sorry but it is the reality of our world as the date of today.

    Modern GUI is progression, going back to command line is regression.

    Coding a GUI is pretty long and boring full time job.
    Last edited by Hulyss Bowman; 23rd July 2015 at 06:26.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Modern GUI is progression, going back to command line is regression.
    Coding a GUI is pretty long and boring full time job.
    I would respectfully disagree. With modern developer tools a GUI is no longer the reserve of a few talented individuals -- even cross platform is straightforward if the correct environment is chosen. And a GUI was created for X3F Extract by someone unrelated to the project hours after release.
    Obviously this does not translate to all projects, but "app" development is becoming a hobby and plenty of people now self-teach, something I couldn't have imagined a decade back.
    I would always prefer a GUI but this isn't a tool being released by Adobe / Apple / Sigma so I don't see why this needs to cater to the layman. The layman may not even care nor see the point of such a tool so it could be a wasted effort -- best put all energy into the actual product.
    P.S, the team say that they asked for Sigma's help but naturally, help wasn't forthcoming. They've done a good job reverse engineering and can benefit from greater input as long as people realise that it's an alpha build.
    Extra press may see Sigma sit up and take notice which again would benefit us all.

  28. #78
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Yes, a basic button gui is not hell to create. But a command line is a no go.

    I see brands as mainstream as they can. Nikon is mainstream as well as canon or pentax, either by the design of the cameras or the software. That mean that everybody can use the material AND application with a reasonable learning curve. SIGMA and SPP are mainstream too if you use it.

    Most of the ppl around us are used to GUI. You give them a command line ? Either they are very passionate or it is a big "wtf is this ?".

    Making a complicated/unusual software to use is aiming a minimal part of the niche users... you see what I'm saying.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Making a complicated/unusual software to use is aiming a minimal part of the niche users... you see what I'm saying.
    Completely, no argument with what you're saying at all.
    For me, I just don't see this as mainstream. Even if it progresses to a 1.0 build (currently 0.53) this will only ever appeal to a small few; it's as niche as it comes and for those that are interested, I'm sure that a command line suffices.
    Oh and the development team stated that part of their reason for open-sourcing the code was because they saw no way to monetise their work. Good of them to admit.
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  30. #80
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    I'm prepared to give the DP0Q a chance. Its lens is sharp, the distortion is minimal and I like the look of the sample pics. Sure, the camera will have some shortcomings, so, I'll need to take care about spot metering, WB, mixed light and shooting into the sun. For architecture and landscapes it should be excellent. I also have some confidence that Sigma will continue to improve SPP for the Q cameras. Hopefully my 0Q will arrive next week and I'm minded to nip into Oxford to take some early evening snaps. It really is a beautiful city.
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  31. #81
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    This might help you Furtle :

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...ance_Lens.html

    Inexpensive and very useful

    Spot metering is needed when you have a bright zone inside your scene. Otherwise, if it is balanced, just underexpose (or expose more using a filter). But with f4 lens all should be ok.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  32. #82
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Reading through this thread has completely put me off getting the DP0 Quattro.

    I noticed that Ffordes has just got in the DP0Q in the kit form with the loupe.

    I actually do not need the DP0Q but I would have liked to have one to play with. But if the highlights issue is embedded in the sensor and processor then it really kills all interest for me.

    Another issue now is the forthcoming Sony A7rII. I now have a pretty substantial Sony ILC kit and with the A7RIIs even higher resolution combined with killer lenses from Zeiss I think I may finally be at an end with the Merrills in my kit.

    We'll see but as said I can't see investing money in a product with such obvious flaws - which would really show up in landscape photography imho.

    Just my two cents.

    LouisB

  33. #83
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Reading through this thread has completely put me off getting the DP0 Quattro.

    I noticed that Ffordes has just got in the DP0Q in the kit form with the loupe.

    I actually do not need the DP0Q but I would have liked to have one to play with. But if the highlights issue is embedded in the sensor and processor then it really kills all interest for me.

    Another issue now is the forthcoming Sony A7rII. I now have a pretty substantial Sony ILC kit and with the A7RIIs even higher resolution combined with killer lenses from Zeiss I think I may finally be at an end with the Merrills in my kit.

    We'll see but as said I can't see investing money in a product with such obvious flaws - which would really show up in landscape photography imho.

    Just my two cents.

    LouisB
    If you would have liked the DP0Q lens and likes the sample pictures, I would not discourage you from trying one. Why not? Because I think the highlight issue in itself is very much overblown If one tries to shoot a Quattro just like a Merrill, it will surely clip the channels easier (and more simultaneously). Or if one trusts the metering system without minus compensation, the same will probably happen in pictures that have very light objects, like sun reflections in water, very light and glossy objects etc. And it is easy to attribute it to sensor flaws "embedded" in the sensor.
    But if you adjust your shooting technique to the sensor characteristic this will not be that much of a problem. This link provides more information about the measured DR:
    Sigma dp2 Quattro Review - Exposure
    The conclusion was:
    DR with high quality (low noise) was 6.25 f-stops
    DR with med-high-quality was 8.85 f-stops
    DR with medium quality was 9.91 f-stops
    DR with low quality was 10.7 f-stops
    DR detected (complete range) was 12.8 f-stops
    And please note, this may have changed slightly (to the better) somewhat since that time, as it was software-dependant (noise reduction) to some degree. Some early tests with Kalpanika also shows that SPP doesn't always use all highlight-data available in the RAW-files, so there may be some more high-quality DR possible to achieve.
    Anyway this was below the average compared to the best Bayer-sensors. Compared to Merrill? Hard to tell exactly as the same source didn't do a test of the DP Merrills in the same way. (The SD1 pre Merrill showed however more than one stop more high quality DR but 3 stops lower detected DR. That was also below average for its time. Another source says 12.2 maximum DR of the Merrills: DP2 Merrill sensor read noise finally measured: Sigma Camera Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
    But if you adjust your shooting style to the Quattro I doubt that you will run into problems that often. If one does, it could be more of a metering problem IMHO. You may need to compensate on the minus-side with the Quattros, like -0.3 to -1.0, where the Merrills could do with +-0 or +0.7 (from what I have read, not tested myself). Or spot meter the bright areas to make sure they do not clip. The Quattros does not have the same highlight-headroom but instead better shadow recovery than the Merrills and a DR in the same ballpark. So adjust to it and it will work fine for most subjects. If you could get a Merrill to work (which also has limited high-quality-range compared to Bayers) you could most probably get a good shot from a Quattro as well, if you use it according to its characteristics.
    I have some RAW files from the DP3Q if you want to try the characteristics of the Quattro files. I have a few test-pictures with clipped highlights but those could have been easy to save with some more minus-compensation to the metering system and compensation in SPP afterwards. In the beginning I used only -0.3 and that was too little for some high-contrast-scenes. I should have used -0.7 or -1.0 with the default Evaluative-metering settings, or changed to spot-metering.
    I hope this either confirms your decision or makes you rethink
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  34. #84
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    ^^^^ Thanks for the information. ^^^^^
    -----
    My new book "Whitechapel in 50 BUildings", Flikr Stream, www.louisberk.com
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  35. #85
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    unhelpful
    Last edited by Bob; 27th July 2015 at 06:03.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  36. #86
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    all are welcome.
    Last edited by Bob; 27th July 2015 at 06:03.

  37. #87
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Well if that is the attitude here, how can a newcomer like me feel welcome?
    By posting and sharing photography ? To start with... ??

    Luminous Landscape is deserted by master photographers today. They do not share nor participate anymore, a huge and sad lose for a community.

    GetDPI is one of the last family place where we can find, share and discuss with super photographers, about photography (but we all see it is drifting slowly into GAS, speculations and technical threads).

    Artistic minds FLEE that.

    Artistic minds who flee a forum lead this forum into boring and useless land.

    LuLa slept into this in one year, approximately. GetDPI resist, somehow.

    I strongly suspect the low posts participants in this thread come from dpr, since they are so prone to give links from this vulgarizing platform...

    Here we do not really vulgarize a brand/numbers or whatever, we already master them. We just want to share and congratulate our friends when they show us superb photos, whatever material they use (!).

    So there is no offence in my words. You want to show us how a camera sing ? Post pictures instead of numbers.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  38. #88
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    bad
    Last edited by Hulyss Bowman; 25th July 2015 at 06:25.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  39. #89
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    unhelpful
    Last edited by Bob; 27th July 2015 at 06:02.

  40. #90
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    unhelpful
    Last edited by Bob; 27th July 2015 at 06:02.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    This site is about photography pure and simple.
    Yes some members focus on gear, but that is and ought to be secondary to images.
    many superior photographs have been taken with what we might call primitive tools by today's standards which demonstrates unequivocally that the most powerful tools at a photographer's disposal are the brain, the eye, and the skills used to apply technique.

    We will have none of this bickering here.
    Consider yourselves slapped around by a wet trout and get on with posting some pictures.

    Gear that is best for one photographer is just not acceptable to others. It could be as simple as familiarity, the placement of controls, or perhaps even work-flow.

    I also don't take kindly to discussion of who was banned where or why. We do our best to operate like Switzerland and do not take sides, but we do ban individuals that fail to respect other members and their work. For us mods, a ban is merely a click away.

    Don't annoy your fellow photographers. Dazzle them with your images. Help those that are curious and learning which should be all of us for once we "know it all" we are frankly not at our peak but perhaps dead in the head.

    Is this enough of a warning to return this discussion to polite civility?

    Please keep my finger away from the ban button.

    Thanks for your kind understanding.
    -bob
    www.getdpi.com
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  42. #92
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Sorry bob, edited my bad post.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  43. #93
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Please, guys, nice words. The reason I like GetDPI is that interchange is respectful.

    I did not take any offence at Daniel's response to my post and he is entitled to his opinion.

    For my part I may still get the DP0. I suspect my denial will crumble at some point.

    But please let's keep it friendly!

    LouisB
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    My new book "Whitechapel in 50 BUildings", Flikr Stream, www.louisberk.com
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  44. #94
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    I like the sound of this Sir Bargate guy!
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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  45. #95
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    unhelpful
    Last edited by Bob; 27th July 2015 at 06:01.

  46. #96
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Stop piling on.
    Contrition counts.

    I have re-opened this thread because by now I hope that folks have cooled their tempers somewhat.
    Please continue if it can be done with cool heads and clear thoughts.
    If the raging continues there will be more yellow cards and perhaps bans handed out.
    thanks
    -bob
    Last edited by Bob; 27th July 2015 at 04:55.

  47. #97
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    First effort with the DP0Q. It's here on Flickr if anyone wishes to look a little closer https://flic.kr/p/wmQYYT

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  48. #98
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    Some whacky angles with the wide angle lens

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  49. #99
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    ^^^ Thanks for the samples - well worth checking out on Flickr ^^^

  50. #100
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    Re: Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

    I am reluctant to add anything to this thread! I am curious about the DP0Q but am somewhat put off by the 'issues', perceived or otherwise of the Quattro range and yet I am seeing some good samples in the threads in this forum.

    I have read that the OOC JPEGS are pretty good from the Quattros and that there is a new double-size S-Hi version of this. With regard to the highlight issues in particular, has anyone checked if this occurs in OOC JPEGS as well as via SPP? Is it a general issues or mostly SPP-created?

    Lee

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