Sigma Quattro series - Enduring issues

[Quentin_Bargate]

Still got my 14n, Quentin. It's still crap ;-)

It had one very good feature, Dave, the long exposure mode which could produce very low noise long exposure raw files incamera using dark frame subtraction

By today's standards, its crap, but at the time, those 13.5mp files seemed huge!

Still have my 14nx. Also a DCS 760, which was a better camera with very good 6mp files.

Quenti

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

I tweaked a bit the code and I'm able to recover all now.

 

[Daniel Forsman]

I tweaked a bit the code and I'm able to recover all now.

I am impressed! Is it the same RAW-file? If so, how on earth did you do that?
/Daniel

 

[Quentin_Bargate]

I tweaked a bit the code and I'm able to recover all now.

Outstanding! Now that's more like it.

 

[furtle]

Excellent Hulyss :clap::clap:

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

What is lost can't be recovered.

But there is quick and ungeeky solutions to solve the problem without decades of coding :

I know... I'm a troll

More seriously, I'm looking at all this story here and on Dpr and I'm amazed by what I see: Ppl lost the last bits of rationalism left in any sigma subforums.

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

How come that nobody here neither on DPR came with a better SPP conversion of this file ? Because yes, there is some problems but they are not THAT much pronounced.

Simple SPP conversion:

100% crop:

This whole "public" coding adventure kalpasigma (whatever it's named) make more damage on Sigma reputation than any of my previous rants, period.

In the eyes of a newcomer who is interested in Sigma cameras and "unluckily" fall on DpR threads like this, the pragmatic reaction is the following:

IM NEVER GONNA BUY INTO THIS.

The Quattro, like the Merril's predecessors blow yellows, especially glossy yellows. Spot measure is mandatory for indoor single shoot (or outdoor flower shoot) and also, like every sigma, custom WB + underexposure.

Note to the geeks/devs/whatever : When WB set on 5000/5500k, most of the banana's blown yellow is recovered.

Note2: The SPP results above can be achieved in many other ways, like expo -1.1/fill light +2 ...

 

[Daniel Forsman]

Well I don't understand your attitude. What is wrong woth discussing different tools and how to cope with problematic photos? Isn't that what the forums are made for? And what is wrong with the project of making a DNG-converter like Kalpanika, to make a Lightroom workflow? Has anybody claimed it is ready yet? No, the developers themselves wanted some testing, help and feedback. What is wrong with that? Has anybody claimed it to always give better results than SPP? Anyway, you make a good job of recovering the blown highlights, but isn't that through the 170 x 450 darker pixels in the Quattro sensor, that SPP uses when you tick that box? Without them, if you uncheck the Highlight box, it seems that SPP does no better than for example Kalpanika.
Why not at least try to be be helpful instead of insulting and lecturing?

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

Because without proper funds to develop a proper software, this venture lead nowhere. SPP still work better as the date of today.

Because if, by a wonderful hazard, the guys manage to make a useful software who do not need a master degree in MSdos command lines to be used correctly, it will put sigma (an old international company) on shame.

And because my point...

"In the eyes of a newcomer who is interested in Sigma cameras and "unluckily" fall on DpR threads like this, the pragmatic reaction is the following:

IM NEVER GONNA BUY INTO THIS."

...is valid and factual.

By the end of the coding/compilation process, SIGMA will have the time to launch new models, maybe new sensor design or new spp ...

(thus, all this work might be flushed into oblivion).

Just annoyed to see ppl wasting time and energy on this instead of making photography, just putting my foots into "normal" photographer who want to use an unconventional tool to make photography (the base essence of a photography forum).

Also because 99% of the photographers are not technicians. They are photographers.

So better way to let SIGMA recording the message, fixing the issues themselves. We paid for those cameras.

 

[Daniel Forsman]

Because without proper funds to develop a proper software, this venture lead nowhere. SPP still work better as the date of today.

Because if, by a wonderful hazard, the guys manage to make a useful software who do not need a master degree in MSdos command lines to be used correctly, it will put sigma (an old international company) on shame.

And because my point...

"In the eyes of a newcomer who is interested in Sigma cameras and "unluckily" fall on DpR threads like this, the pragmatic reaction is the following:

IM NEVER GONNA BUY INTO THIS."

...is valid and factual.

By the end of the coding/compilation process, SIGMA will have the time to launch new models, maybe new sensor design or new spp ...

(thus, all this work might be flushed into oblivion).

Just annoyed to see ppl wasting time and energy on this instead of making photography, just putting my foots into "normal" photographer who want to use an unconventional tool to make photography (the base essence of a photography forum).

Also because 99% of the photographers are not technicians. They are photographers.

So better way to let SIGMA recording the message, fixing the issues themselves. We paid for those cameras.

Well you'd better off to leave the logic to technicians You recognize that if your words are taken literal no one should waste their time and energy on coding Lightroom, Capture One etc. they should just be making photographs. And no one should waste time at this forum when it is raining outside (they should go out in their raincoats trying to get a merril-sharp picture of the misty water molecules) or just because they think the process of using the RAW-files and making adjustments could be fun, or just because they want to learn

 

[Daniel Forsman]

Because without proper funds to develop a proper software, this venture lead nowhere. SPP still work better as the date of today.

Because if, by a wonderful hazard, the guys manage to make a useful software who do not need a master degree in MSdos command lines to be used correctly, it will put sigma (an old international company) on shame.

Who said anything else? What you state is obvious, SPP works best as of today. SPP is a complete software. Kalpanika is only in a prototype-state. But I think you should learn a little bit about the use of a software like Kalpanika. It was not intended to be used manually from a command prompt, they just decided to let people test it in its current state. It could instead be used from within other softwares, without the user even noticing. Kalpanika was developed to be used transparently in a Lightroom workflow, and that is still their goal and I think that part of the project is not the hardest. I am pretty sure that a lot of the softwares you are using are accessing subroutines and applications in the same way.

 

[tagscuderia]

Similar to Fuji's recent fortunes: despite Adobe's best efforts, as the most used RAW converter, X-Trans gets a bad press. Iridient Developer is a one-man team and yet possesses the best demosaicing and sharpening routines for X-Trans. Incredible and good news for everyone involved. N.B, Adobe are reported to still be working on X-Trans code due to pressure from other software, also good.
I see a similar situation with X3F Extract so how is it a negative?
Quattro will always do badly in reviews, and if Sigma choose to release a sensor with less than average DR and severe highlight clipping issues... Quattro has also suffered from VERY poor official sample galleries. I just don't see how Kalpanika is anything but positive. The very fact that they've released it under an open-source license shows their intent.
I like choice and can see myself using both SPP and X3F Extract. It is no panacea but it's an impressive start given zero help from Sigma!

P.S, to use X3F Extract is simple and straightforward. People will always shy away from the command line but it's wrong to be so flippant.

 

[xpatUSA]

It was not intended to be used manually from a command prompt, they just decided to let people test it in its current state. It could instead be used from within other softwares, without the user even noticing. Kalpanika was developed to be used transparently in a Lightroom workflow, and that is still their goal and I think that part of the project is not the hardest. I am pretty sure that a lot of the softwares you are using are accessing subroutines and applications in the same way.

Meanwhile, there is a front end GUI already out for x3f_extract (Kalpanika executable) which avoids the use of the command window.

I tried x3f_extract but did not have anything that correctly opens their linear DNG export. So I tried their TIFF export which was less than satisfactory in the rendering of highlights.

To their credit, they have never promoted the use of TIFF as being much good - emphasizing DNG as the export of choice.

So, for my Adobe-free situation (yep, not even Flash let alone Reader), I'll stay with SPP 5.5.3 for now.

A pity, 7-sec conversion time on my machine is quite superior compared with 100 years for SPP . . .

Ted

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

I do not dismiss the talented work done nor the attention. It is generous and you want to help a community. What I dismiss is the lack of interactions between SIGMA and the team. SIGMA is commercial, the team is not. You speak about lightroom; how much funds and ppl was pulled out into lightroom project ?

I'm logic and technician, building subroutines, applications, complex java and C# codes, sever communications and all. I know the problem, but I do it for myself. I'm my only referent/bank. I'm making virtual universes sized IRL like Alabama (so you might understand how a pain in the *** it can be). And actually it is working.

This is just a word from a mad one man army coder, visual studio guru, to a team of generous coders : Be careful gentlemen, you might be disappointed at the end, if an end is possible. Disappointed because what you want/hope/desire might not be really spot on/achieved. You guys need funds and cohesion and SIGMA should hire you in a cave to decipher, in the joy, the complex foveon datas. You need total synergy with ACTUAL foveon designers/mathematicians.

So in my head it is like trying to decipher enigma with a fork and a bean can. Macgyver style. With a lot of chance and time it might work but you know that you do not have this luxury. SIGMA might come with a total new design or component who invalidate your work. This what I'm trying to tell you.

The magic of life might also give the additional punch to the team, to prove me how wrong I am (and it might be my initial intention, who know ? )

To end this colossal non-photo related digression, here is some technician pov of Ithaca, my world (who might be finished in one year) :

NOTA: Now I cross my fingers that xpatUSA will be able to run it on his Jurassic computer

NOTA2: NEVER release "prototype" to the mass. Alpha test with friends, beta test with more friends and then release proper version (with real modern GUI!!!).

 

[xpatUSA]

NOTA: Now [Hulyss crosses his fingers] that xpatUSA will be able to run [Ithaca, whatever that is] on his Jurassic computer

LOL

Can't be much good if it won't run on a Dell Inspiron Win 7 64bit Core i5 6MB machine

For people who keep mentioning 'zero communication' with Sigma, the very first post on DPR says:

And Sigma mainly wanted us to improve high ISO - something we did not. Thanks Rudy Guttosch (Sigma USA) for very constructive conversations.

Guttosch is a Foveon guy, BTW.

Just sayin' . . .

Ted

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

It will run on your computer even your phone

LOL

Guttosch is a Foveon guy, BTW.

Just sayin' . . .

Ted

If there is real interactions between sigma and the dev team, then the dev team should have the source code of SPP to start with. Just sayin'. There is a world between a conversation and an interaction.

It won't happen.

P.S, to use X3F Extract is simple and straightforward. People will always shy away from the command line but it's wrong to be so flippant.

And people are right to shy away from it. Without proper GUI, nobody would use Androïd (Linux based) nor any other software. GUI is the base, the subtle link between technician brain and the mass. Sorry but it is the reality of our world as the date of today.

Modern GUI is progression, going back to command line is regression.

Coding a GUI is pretty long and boring full time job.

 

[tagscuderia]

Modern GUI is progression, going back to command line is regression.
Coding a GUI is pretty long and boring full time job.

I would respectfully disagree. With modern developer tools a GUI is no longer the reserve of a few talented individuals -- even cross platform is straightforward if the correct environment is chosen. And a GUI was created for X3F Extract by someone unrelated to the project hours after release.
Obviously this does not translate to all projects, but "app" development is becoming a hobby and plenty of people now self-teach, something I couldn't have imagined a decade back.
I would always prefer a GUI but this isn't a tool being released by Adobe / Apple / Sigma so I don't see why this needs to cater to the layman. The layman may not even care nor see the point of such a tool so it could be a wasted effort -- best put all energy into the actual product.
P.S, the team say that they asked for Sigma's help but naturally, help wasn't forthcoming. They've done a good job reverse engineering and can benefit from greater input as long as people realise that it's an alpha build.
Extra press may see Sigma sit up and take notice which again would benefit us all.

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

Yes, a basic button gui is not hell to create. But a command line is a no go.

I see brands as mainstream as they can. Nikon is mainstream as well as canon or pentax, either by the design of the cameras or the software. That mean that everybody can use the material AND application with a reasonable learning curve. SIGMA and SPP are mainstream too if you use it.

Most of the ppl around us are used to GUI. You give them a command line ? Either they are very passionate or it is a big "wtf is this ?".

Making a complicated/unusual software to use is aiming a minimal part of the niche users... you see what I'm saying.

 

[tagscuderia]

Making a complicated/unusual software to use is aiming a minimal part of the niche users... you see what I'm saying.

Completely, no argument with what you're saying at all.
For me, I just don't see this as mainstream. Even if it progresses to a 1.0 build (currently 0.53) this will only ever appeal to a small few; it's as niche as it comes and for those that are interested, I'm sure that a command line suffices.
Oh and the development team stated that part of their reason for open-sourcing the code was because they saw no way to monetise their work. Good of them to admit.

 

[furtle]

I'm prepared to give the DP0Q a chance. Its lens is sharp, the distortion is minimal and I like the look of the sample pics. Sure, the camera will have some shortcomings, so, I'll need to take care about spot metering, WB, mixed light and shooting into the sun. For architecture and landscapes it should be excellent. I also have some confidence that Sigma will continue to improve SPP for the Q cameras. Hopefully my 0Q will arrive next week and I'm minded to nip into Oxford to take some early evening snaps. It really is a beautiful city.