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Thread: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

  1. #201
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    On balance, I can't recommend the DP0Q.
    Once again I raise my eyes to the heavens and ask "Why oh why, Sigma, did you not stick with the Merrill sensor?????".
    ..or at least continue to improve the Merrill cameras with firmware updates and SPP processing. I recognise so many Merrill photos just because of its 'auto' white balance.
    That's also one reason why many people think Quattro has "better colors". It's mostly because its auto white balance is superior.
    And they could manage to make the Merrill processing for Mac users slower with SPP 6.x compared to SPP 5.5.3. Is this the plan, to make the dp/sd Merrills look worse?

    In my opinion it is an extremely unprofessional and consumer unfriendly attitude from Sigma to drop support for these cameras.
    Not too long ago, the sd1 was an extremely expensive flagship and "medium format" competitor. Now it's a dead horse. (at least for the Sigma company)
    Sorry for the broken links to my photographs due to Dropbox policy changes.
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  2. #202
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    The Merrill Blues^^
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    It's too late, the damage is done. On one side you have the guys who say :

    " Quattro is fantastic ya know ... I know someone from foveon who told me it is the future ya know... and I never seen a boss from such compagny speaking like that ya know... Kasuto is sooo cute ya know... "

    Communication won !! Damage is done.

    On the other side you have the real users, not cat shooters but pro users who can compare and foresee vividly where can end a technology if correctly used. But those guys have been disavowed ya know ...

    Screw sigma.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Panaramic
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    woke up in the mornin, the Merrill dream has gone

    Hulyss, see it from the other side, its not surprising that they stopped the Merrills, its surprising that they ever built them.

    Similar Samsung, instead of improving their real cool sensor technology the burn handys.^^

    Happy New Year
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  6. #206
    Senior Member Malina DZ's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by foveon View Post
    ... its surprising that they ever built them.
    and no one else still does! So, thank you Sigma for providing us with cameras based on a Merrill sensor. I'm happy to to have an opportunity to shoot with DPM series.
    Happy New Year!
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  7. #207
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    Hey, this is not a dp0 hate thread

    Quote Originally Posted by foveon View Post
    woke up in the mornin, the Merrill dream has gone
    Excuse me, but Mr. Merrill's dream was the Quattro, not the Merrill.

    I would rather this thread not degenerate into M vs Q nonsense. please. It has been a very nice thread to enjoy dp0 images.
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  8. #208
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Damn DP0Q. Take it out and it creates some stellar results.

    Jewish Cemetery in Brady Street Whitechapel (1761-1858), Dawn today, used a Lee 0.9 hard grad to balance the sky. Exported direct from SPP6.5



    This one I processed is LR and using a recipe in NIK ColorEffex


    SPP-->TIFF-->LR-->JPEG, handheld.
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  9. #209
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Coton Manor, Northants.

    Went to see the Snowdrops and Hellebores. Bit underwhelming. The Hellebores are better in my garden. Took a few pics but it was, as ever, a grey day. This is Coton Manor, a minor C17 pile of no great merit.

    Steve
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  10. #210
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Basingstoke Canal. A bit of tranquility away from the horrors of Mytchett/Ash Vale/Aldershot. Naturally, being a Quattro, this photo enjoys a bit of highlight clipping..... Three grabbed snaps and stitched. Situation normal with the dp0Q continuing to delight and frustrate.

    Steve
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  11. #211
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    ^^^ LOL, Steve. But this looks very good. When it works, it works very well. ^^^

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Chastleton House, Oxfordshire and near Moreton-in-March but more accurately named Moreton-in-the-Minge. A lovely and interesting Jacobean pile, lived in until the mid 1950s but now owned by the National Trust as the increasingly impoverished owners reluctantly accepted the cash was running out. Yet again a grey day and bravely, I took some indoor, low-light (ooooh noooo!) shots with the ever fickle dp0Q.







    Steve
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  13. #213
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    I think the interior shots have coped better with the colours than the exterior ones - and they look very good - especially the stair shot, very nice indeed.

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I think the interior shots have coped better with the colours than the exterior ones - and they look very good - especially the stair shot, very nice indeed.
    Agreed. It's tempting to say it was an overcast day and the sensor didn't get enough light hence the building, grass and daffodil colours are a bit off but I don't have the energy to faff around with the colours. The light indoors was shockingly poor and as you say the colours look better. Hey ho!

    Maybe a B & W?

    Steve
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by furtle View Post
    Agreed. It's tempting to say it was an overcast day and the sensor didn't get enough light hence the building, grass and daffodil colours are a bit off but I don't have the energy to faff around with the colours. The light indoors was shockingly poor and as you say the colours look better. Hey ho!

    Maybe a B & W?

    The b&w version looks much better ... At least, the sensor got it right for the textures

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Perserving with the dp0 Quattro... Oxford canal at Banbury (a once lovely market town ruined by town planners). Another gloomy day.



    Steve
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    West from Spring Gully

    Taken last weekend

    Click image for larger version. 

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    dp0
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  18. #218
    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Gorgeous shot!
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/grahamgibson/
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Sigma have updated the firmware for the dp Quattro cameras and they can now shoot SFD (7 stacked shots; tripod and zero movement in the scene needed) and produce DNG files.

    Link here https://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/englis...pic.php?id=667

    I tried the SFD mode in a church and the Quattro signature noise has gone and the colours are great. This was just a quick test and I could improve the focus, exposure, processing etc.

    For static interior shots and if you have the patience to deal with near 300mb files, the finished photos are superb. Noise in the shadows is a thing of the past. In my view, the dp0Q is now a serious camera for interior work.

    SPP is now updated to 6.5.3

    Steve
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  20. #220
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    That looks very good. My shots of Flamstead church from last year were ruined by diffraction - I was shooting at f11, so I'd be interested to go back and try it again with the new firmware and stacking in the future. I'll give the dng's a go tomorrow on my walk to work.

    LouisB

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    I would hold off for a couple of days - folks over at DPR has had issues with various dps freezing after the firmware upgrade.

    Lee

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    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    I'm super excited to see Sigma supporting DNG raws. SFD is interesting too.

    It's a bit unfortunate that the DNGs are 150MB though. How's the camera perform speed-wise when shooting DNG vs. X3F?

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ggibson View Post
    I'm super excited to see Sigma supporting DNG raws. SFD is interesting too.

    It's a bit unfortunate that the DNGs are 150MB though. How's the camera perform speed-wise when shooting DNG vs. X3F?
    The buffer goes down to 6 shots from 7 and it takes a bit longer to write. The DNGs on my DP2Q are around 100-110MB each, roughly double the size of the X3F files.
    Being able to open them directly in Lightroom is awesome! SFD takes far too long to process, both in camera and in SPP, but it is a lot of data.
    I still prefer the output from my Merrill though.

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    That looks very good. My shots of Flamstead church from last year were ruined by diffraction - I was shooting at f11, so I'd be interested to go back and try it again with the new firmware and stacking in the future. I'll give the dng's a go tomorrow on my walk to work.

    LouisB
    You and I have both ruined photos using too small apertures. F4 to f6.3 (f5.6 better) is perfect. Will SFD prevent diffraction?
    Steve

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ggibson View Post
    It's a bit unfortunate that the DNGs are 150MB though. How's the camera perform speed-wise when shooting DNG vs. X3F?
    The OOC DNGs are uncompressed, you can run Adobe's DNG converter or ACR to save them with lossless compression. Extra step but... if serious about shooting DNG then probably worth it.

    //

    Are there any settings for SFD? If shooting ETTR, 3 of the frames are redundant

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    I made a second attempt at the church interior and this is better. Sigma dp0Q in SFD. Interior low light shot with no flash. F5.6 focused on the far stained glass window. I'm liking it.



    and another from the altar end

    Last edited by furtle; 27th April 2017 at 09:06.
    Steve
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  27. #227
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    My new Sigma DP0Q

    I feel like I have been given a brand new camera. A different camera. One with a great 21mm lens and superb sensor. Why, oh why did Sigma not do this sooner????

    Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou, Sigma for finally giving us dng!

    My feeling is dynamic range is improved, sharpness at 100% is maintained, less appareance of flattening of subjects, better texture handling, better colour in shadows.

    A few files for you to play with. Tell me if I am fooling myself, please. There are links to full size jpegs exported from LR and the original DNG files to play with (but be aware the DNGs are 100MB files). Right click and 'save as' to download the files

    NOTE: please do not share the files - direct any interested parties to this post.


    Full sized jpeg | dng


    Full sized jpeg | dng


    Full sized jpeg | dng
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  28. #228
    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Thank you, I had some fun playing around with these in Lightroom last night. I haven't shot a Quattro for a couple of years now, so it's hard for me to comment on the differences prior to the 2.0 firmware. I'm mostly editing A7rII files these days, which are of course much more resilient to push/pull in post than these Quattro files.

    On the plus side though, LR's processing of Sigma's DNG files is SUPER fast compared to my Sony RAWs. At first I thought it was just 42MP vs 19MP files, but I opened up some of my old GF1 12MP RAWs and editing the Sigmas was still smoother. The option of shooting DNG does make the Quattro lineup more appealing to me (if I could get past the form-factor). I did note that the camera RAW profiles are available to select in LR as well if you want them (standard, vivid, landscape, etc...).

    The question still stands whether DNG is inferior to X3F though. Early testing from others shows that you can use Adobe's converter to compress the ~100MB DNGs down to 33~50MB, which suggests at least a similar level of detail to typical ~45MB X3Fs. Have you tried any back-to-back testing between the two RAW formats?

  29. #229
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ggibson View Post
    Thank you, I had some fun playing around with these in Lightroom last night. I haven't shot a Quattro for a couple of years now, so it's hard for me to comment on the differences prior to the 2.0 firmware. I'm mostly editing A7rII files these days, which are of course much more resilient to push/pull in post than these Quattro files.

    On the plus side though, LR's processing of Sigma's DNG files is SUPER fast compared to my Sony RAWs. At first I thought it was just 42MP vs 19MP files, but I opened up some of my old GF1 12MP RAWs and editing the Sigmas was still smoother. The option of shooting DNG does make the Quattro lineup more appealing to me (if I could get past the form-factor). I did note that the camera RAW profiles are available to select in LR as well if you want them (standard, vivid, landscape, etc...).

    The question still stands whether DNG is inferior to X3F though. Early testing from others shows that you can use Adobe's converter to compress the ~100MB DNGs down to 33~50MB, which suggests at least a similar level of detail to typical ~45MB X3Fs. Have you tried any back-to-back testing between the two RAW formats?
    I think you will find that DNGs are superior to the X3F files. I've got to play with them more but the results so far are very promissing.

    I haven't done any back to back processing. I know full well the shortcomings of the Quattro files (highlight issues, poor colour in shadow areas, flat look to some landscape/acrhitectural features) and I'll be looking to see if that occurs in the DNGs.

    I don't quite understand the idea of compressing the DNGs. I'm not familiar with how that affects files. You seem to imply it improves detail but that seems counter-intuitive to me.

    LouisB
    Last edited by biglouis; 28th April 2017 at 14:28.

  30. #230
    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I think you will find that DNGs are superior to the X3F files. I've got to play with them more but the results so far are very promissing.

    I don't quite understand the idea of compressing the DNGs. I'm not familiar with how that affects files. You seem to imply it improves detail but that seems counter-intuitive to me.

    LouisB
    I guess I wasn't very clear what I meant about the file sizes. I think I read somewhere that what Sigma is doing with their DNG RAWs is just a rough and dirty bit translation from RAW, which results in a much larger DNG file size. What that suggests to me is that there's little to no loss in data when using the DNGs instead of X3F, but it's hard to say for sure without some testing.

    Adobe's DNG Converter does a lossless compression algorithm to get the file size down to 33-50MB, which matches closely the X3F file size. If it were much smaller, I would suspect there is some loss but this at least suggests there is a lot of data in the DNG (compared to a 10MB or so jpg). Sigma could potentially do a similar lossless compression in-camera, but I'm guessing the various Quattro processors simply aren't powerful enough to do so in a reasonable time. I think Lightroom allows for automatic compression on import, but I didn't try it yet.

    If you have time, could you take a DNG and X3F file or the same subject to compare?

  31. #231
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ggibson View Post
    I guess I wasn't very clear what I meant about the file sizes. I think I read somewhere that what Sigma is doing with their DNG RAWs is just a rough and dirty bit translation from RAW, which results in a much larger DNG file size. What that suggests to me is that there's little to no loss in data when using the DNGs instead of X3F, but it's hard to say for sure without some testing.

    Adobe's DNG Converter does a lossless compression algorithm to get the file size down to 33-50MB, which matches closely the X3F file size. If it were much smaller, I would suspect there is some loss but this at least suggests there is a lot of data in the DNG (compared to a 10MB or so jpg). Sigma could potentially do a similar lossless compression in-camera, but I'm guessing the various Quattro processors simply aren't powerful enough to do so in a reasonable time. I think Lightroom allows for automatic compression on import, but I didn't try it yet.

    If you have time, could you take a DNG and X3F file or the same subject to compare?
    Yes, to be accurate I'll have to use a tripod but I will give it a try some time this weekend.

    LouisB

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I think you will find that DNGs are superior to the X3F files. I've got to play with them more but the results so far are very promissing.
    I see the opposite in my tests. The DNG and X3F are very similar with a slight edge for the X3F in shadow quality after boosting them.
    Also in the highlights there seems to be a minimal advantage for the X3F. And then there are some color artifacts in the DNG that the X3F seems to render better. Also blues can look different.

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  33. #233
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    ^^^^ Worrying. I've got some new files to process with comparison shots ^^^^

    What software were you using to process the DNGs?

    LouisB

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneage View Post
    I see the opposite in my tests. The DNG and X3F are very similar with a slight edge for the X3F in shadow quality after boosting them.
    Also in the highlights there seems to be a minimal advantage for the X3F. And then there are some color artifacts in the DNG that the X3F seems to render better. Also blues can look different.

    Someone on DPR was showing this as well, but also noted that if you increase the color NR to 50 or so in LR, the two look very close. It may be that SPP's color NR is just more aggressive by default.

    While I was looking at this on your DP0q shot of the building with the smokestack, Louis, I noticed something interesting--the leaves on the shadow side of the building, near the corner look like the color gets completely lost against the brown bricks in some places. You can see some texture of the leaves, but the color takes on the brown of the building. Do you see that, or am I imagining it? Seems like a Quattro artifact more than X3F vs. DNG though.

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quattro OOC DNGs are linear, that means that the camera is performing the colour conversion from 4:1:1 and logic implies that this is the same routine used for the JPG engine which is inferior to SPP. The files are also denoised in camera (compare to X3F in RawDigger) and also inferior to SPP.

    DNG was designed for CFA data so linear was SIGMA's only option.
    But linear DNG is still a scene-referred RAW file e.g, it has no White Balance or colour space and no gamma applied. There's also zero sharpening which for Quattro is a God send!
    I would imagine that 12-bit reflects greater efficiency having converted to linear.

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    By design, linear DNGs are open to interpretation by RAW developer software (discovered having pitted Iridient vs ACR); no colour space, white balance or gamma is applied.
    Regards blues, SPP and the JPG engine correct the cyan cast that appears inherent in Foveon files, thankfully it's very easy to do manually. With DNG, it's also possible to profile the camera to apply this correction automatically in a way that's not possible with the X3F!
    Due to using the in-camera colour conversion and noise reduction routines, X3F will prove superior until SIGMA greatly improve camera processing power; that would allow for NLM which appears superior for denoising Foveon RAW data.
    Cheers,
    Tom.

  37. #237
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    One aspect of the new firmware/SPP I am not understanding is the new SFD mode.

    Maybe I have not set my camera up correctly but in use SFD seems to me no more that autobracketing. Am I correct?

    When I export from SPP in either JPEG or TIFF mode I get the exact same file size whether it is a normal X3F or SFD format X3I file, despite the fact that the X3I RAW file is nearly 8 times bigger than the X3F file.

    Here is an example of the detail created by an X3F versus a X3I. Both files were exported as TIF into LR6 and then saved as jpegs.

    At 100% I really cannot see any improvement using the X3I, or if there is an improvement it is very subtle indeed and begs the question whether it is really worth it.

    Am I doing something wrong or missing something?

    The subject:


    100% crop from centre of TIF of X3F file, as JPEG from LR6


    100% crop from centre of TIF of X3I file, as JPEG from LR6
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  38. #238
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Louis, as an objective observer I'd say the difference is huge !
    The iX3 file is much cleaner: f.i. look around the No Parking text.

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by tagscuderia View Post
    By design, linear DNGs are open to interpretation by RAW developer software (discovered having pitted Iridient vs ACR); no colour space, white balance or gamma is applied.
    Regards blues, SPP and the JPG engine correct the cyan cast that appears inherent in Foveon files, thankfully it's very easy to do manually. With DNG, it's also possible to profile the camera to apply this correction automatically in a way that's not possible with the X3F!
    Due to using the in-camera colour conversion and noise reduction routines, X3F will prove superior until SIGMA greatly improve camera processing power; that would allow for NLM which appears superior for denoising Foveon RAW data.
    Cheers,
    Tom.
    Hi Tom

    Are you able to explain how to correct the cyan cast to produce better blues in Lightroom? Also, how do you profile the camera with DNG?

    Lee
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    SFD is auto-bracketing; it's taking 7 shots total, 3 either side of the base exposure. The X3I is a container for the 7 X3F files that can be individually extracted.
    Unsure as to why you expect the TIFFs or JPGs to be larger
    The SFD image has visibly better IQ in your example thanks to much lower noise. Noise and dynamic range being the raison d'Ítre of SFD.
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphie View Post
    Hi Tom
    Are you able to explain how to correct the cyan cast to produce better blues in Lightroom? Also, how do you profile the camera with DNG?
    Lee
    Hi Lee,
    I don't use Lightroom and looking at ACR there doesn't appear to be a global hue adjustment, just per channel and that makes it more complex to correct
    Regards camera calibration, this link gives you an idea as to what's required... As an enthusiast only, that's way too much trouble for me when SPP delivers superior results every time. But it will be useful for many.
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  42. #242
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Louis, as an objective observer I'd say the difference is huge !
    The iX3 file is much cleaner: f.i. look around the No Parking text.

    Kind regards.
    To my tired eyes the difference is so minor I am not sure whether or not my eyes are tricking me. But I'm glad to hear there is a difference (but as you'll see from my comment below I doubt I will use the functionaity in any case).

    Quote Originally Posted by tagscuderia View Post
    SFD is auto-bracketing; it's taking 7 shots total, 3 either side of the base exposure. The X3I is a container for the 7 X3F files that can be individually extracted.
    Unsure as to why you expect the TIFFs or JPGs to be larger
    The SFD image has visibly better IQ in your example thanks to much lower noise. Noise and dynamic range being the raison d'Ítre of SFD.
    OK, well I guess I'm a little disappointed that Sigma put their effort into creating SFD when what I would have preferred is for them to broaden the scope of the existing auto-bracketing which I confirmed this morning works with the dng format. For information, the most comprehensive auto-braketing on any camera I own is on the Panasonic GX8 where you can step between 3 to 7 frames in user selectable EV step. The reason why I would prefer to have a richer auto-bracketing function rather than the specialised SFD is that I use HDR Effex in LR6 and it works very well indeed. I'm way too lazy to break the XRIs into their 7 components and export each one as TIF to LR and then to HDR Effex. Too slow and too many steps.

    Now I also understand why the files do not change in size. SFD is in effect in camera HDR. I'm not impressed so far with the processing that the X3I files undego when they are put into the editing mode in SPP. I have a powerful PC and the processing is not fast enough to be called 'slow as molasses'. More like 'slow as molasses frozen to below zero...".

    But the good news is that I am getting some excellent results from dng, so well done Sigma.

    LouisB

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    I agree. I'm unlikely to even bother testing SFD.

    N.B, an X3I is like an EXR/HDR file, it requires tone mapping. SPP's defaults nor AUTO will get you anywhere.
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Hello Louis

    Try your test in low light indoors. The X3I file will be much better than any single X3F file. Also, I think the base EV selection is very important. As said above it is easy to deselect a rogue image in the X3I stack before processing but if you deselect too many, the noise comes back.

    The EV steps are 1.0 each and I would like to be able to change that in the menu to a smaller number, say, 0.6 or 0.3 EV. Then I believe far more of the individual shots would be useful.

    Going back to your test, this was in good light and in this situation, I'm with you; I don't think the advantage of the X3I over a single well exposed X3F is huge. But, once shadows get into the frame the X3I advantage increases.
    Steve
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    I'm revisiting this post and now the dp0Q had SFD, the interior photos would have been significantly better using SFD. In fact, it was a gloomy day and I think the exterior photo of the house would have been better as well. Just gotta get the base EV right.

    Quote Originally Posted by furtle View Post
    Chastleton House, Oxfordshire and near Moreton-in-March but more accurately named Moreton-in-the-Minge. A lovely and interesting Jacobean pile, lived in until the mid 1950s but now owned by the National Trust as the increasingly impoverished owners reluctantly accepted the cash was running out. Yet again a grey day and bravely, I took some indoor, low-light (ooooh noooo!) shots with the ever fickle dp0Q.







    Steve
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  46. #246
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by furtle View Post
    Hello Louis

    Try your test in low light indoors. The X3I file will be much better than any single X3F file. Also, I think the base EV selection is very important. As said above it is easy to deselect a rogue image in the X3I stack before processing but if you deselect too many, the noise comes back.

    The EV steps are 1.0 each and I would like to be able to change that in the menu to a smaller number, say, 0.6 or 0.3 EV. Then I believe far more of the individual shots would be useful.

    Going back to your test, this was in good light and in this situation, I'm with you; I don't think the advantage of the X3I over a single well exposed X3F is huge. But, once shadows get into the frame the X3I advantage increases.
    Steve, thanks for the information, that would an important benefit. I'll definitely try it as and when I have a need.

    LouisB

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Could someone share images with the sun in the frame at various apertures between f/4 and f/11?
    What is the max shutter speed at f/4?

  48. #248
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    Sigma DNG files

    Quote Originally Posted by ggibson View Post
    Someone on DPR was showing this as well, but also noted that if you increase the color NR to 50 or so in LR, the two look very close.
    That would be me who you are quoting.

    ...Louis, I noticed something interesting--the leaves on the shadow side of the building, near the corner look like the color gets completely lost against the brown bricks in some places. You can see some texture of the leaves, but the color takes on the brown of the building. Do you see that, or am I imagining it? Seems like a Quattro artifact more than X3F vs. DNG though.
    Not a Quattro artefact IMHO.

    I think biglouis has gotten rightly excited about the DNG, but jumped too early to conclude its superiority to X3F. Lets try to lay down a few factual markers first, before bringing in the subjectives:

    1. The DNG is 12-bit and the X3F is 14-bit
    2. The DNG is uncompressed and thus approx 105 MB for this camera
    3. The X3F is losslessly compressed raw and about 45-55 MB file size
    4. The DNG is a linear raw file, and can be considered a true raw file, not like a TIFF for example
    5. Adobe products can compress the DNG file losslessly to about 35 MB (assuming Medium JPEG size is embedded)
    6. Being 12-bit instead of 14-bit should not limit it in any way except deep shadow noise. Referring to 'fine qualities' being different (other than the 'fine qualities' of deep shadow noise) is certain to be due to processing not source.


    I made some preliminary comments on DNG vs X3F when the sdQH first came out, starting from here (warning, link to another site and forum)

    In a nutshell, if you process an X3F in the latest SPP and a DNG in Lightroom, using default settings both times, a couple of things will go wrong and dominate early impressions:
    • SPP sharpening is a bit high and will create halos (but only minor and at high magnifications of viewing) and image noise (not so minor)
    • SPP NR is a little bit high once you turn down sharpening, which in some images will slightly smooth the finest detail at high magnifications
    • LR sharpening of the DNG is too high because the default is tuned to Bayer raw files that are naturally soft
    • This will give a first impression of wonderful detail in DNG but it is false
    • LR noise reduction is too low (again, tuned for Bayer) so again provides misleading impression of high detail
    • The DNG will seem blighted with high colour noise, but Colour NR of 50 in LR is a first estimate to fix it


    So they might look a lot different due to default software settings, but the differences can be muchly equalized with attention to post processing, and are not actually due to anything inherent in the image files, other than less ultimate dynamic range in the 12-bit DNG which manifests itself as more noise (and less colour retention/accuracy) in the deepest shadows, and would rarely be a big issue. Especially now, with SFD mode for (static) shots with deep shadows.
    Last edited by TN Args; 30th April 2017 at 23:39. Reason: clarified that X3F is lossless
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by furtle View Post
    ....in low light indoors....The X3I file will be much better than any single X3F file. Also, I think the base EV selection is very important. As said above it is easy to deselect a rogue image in the X3I stack before processing but if you deselect too many, the noise comes back.

    The EV steps are 1.0 each and I would like to be able to change that in the menu to a smaller number, say, 0.6 or 0.3 EV. Then I believe far more of the individual shots would be useful.

    Going back to your test, this was in good light and in this situation, I'm with you; I don't think the advantage of the X3I over a single well exposed X3F is huge. But, once shadows get into the frame the X3I advantage increases.
    I agree, SFD is for special cases, and will yield obvious benefits in those cases.

    I am more the opposite of biglouis in that I am much more likely to use SFD, than work with HDR tools, when I want critically low noise and high dynamic range.

    Do you have any tips for how to select the base EV for a SFD exposure?

    [edit: quote from the Sigma website about SFD Mode: The new Super-Fine Detail (SFD) exposure mode brings out the full performance of the Foveon X3 Quattro direct image sensor. One push of the shutter generates seven different exposures, creating RAW data in the X3I file format. Using this data with the SIGMA Photo Pro software package, the photographer can create noiseless images with an extensive dynamic range. With this new mode, the more detailed imaging potential of the Foveon X3 Quattro direct image sensor is fully leveraged. From each X3I file, individual X3F files may also be generated. The value of SFD exposure mode is especially apparent in studio photography.]
    Last edited by TN Args; 30th April 2017 at 22:02. Reason: added Sigma website quote
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  50. #250
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    ^^^^ TN, that is really useful information, thanks for sharing ^^^^
    -----
    My new book "Whitechapel in 50 BUildings", Flikr Stream, www.louisberk.com
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