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Thread: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

  1. #251
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    ^^^^ TN, that is really useful information, thanks for sharing ^^^^
    Agreed, great summary from TN. Processing Quattro files has been a long and hard 'relationship' for me. I liked the JPEG output from the outset but shadow colour was often desaturated. SPP was originally very slow and the output way too crunchy, before they introduced that Detail slider. I have also since learned to reduce sharpening in SPP. More recent versions seem very heavy-handed with luminance NR, blurring detail in distance on landscape shots, so I now routinely move that to the left. SPP is also now much faster, especially with the GPU acceleration.

    I was seriously thinking (again) of selling my Quattros. Then the magical DNG option, which I had hoped for, arrived sooner than expected. Not had much time to experiment yet but initial impressions are good. Also, worth noting that LR has some of the Quattro colour modes available in the Profile drop-down of camera calibration section. I seem to be starting with Portrait as a good base. As TN says Adobe can compress the DNGs to half the size, either by just running them though Adobe DNG Converter or in LR by selecting a DNG in Library view and then selecting Menu option Metadata/Update DNG Preview and Metadata - I am not sure exactly what else the latter does though.

    What I am not sure about is WB - I assume those in the drop-down in LR are Adobe's presets and not grabbed from the DNG?

    Final question (not specifically related to DNG) - can anyone explain why the Sigma Monochrome mode always renders the image 0.5-1.0 stop underexposed compared to colour? You can see it happen with this Profile selected in LR but it happens in SPP too.

    One day, maybe Sigma will give us the option to save DNG and X3F at the same time!

    Lee

  2. #252
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Some additional thoughts from me on the new dng option. But first, what it is all about, the photograph.

    Ironic, or iconic? John Gay was a British photograph (actually born a German but emigrated to the UK in the 1920s) who lived and worked where I live in north London and shot many superb photographs around the King's Cross area. The elevated photograph taken from the height of the top of an old gas street lamp on Midland Way looking towards the gasholders on Good's Way taken in the early 1950s is classic in terms of the black and white MF photography and the time it captures. Since the early 'naughties' of this century this entire area has been redeveloped. The iconic Victorian gasholders - some of the best examples of their type - have been moved to a location about half a mile away on the canal and now adorn the exterior of circular up-market appartments - called Gasholder Park (worth a visit if you are in London).

    Seeing Gay's work on a billboard is wonderful but I am not sure if it is appreciated by the casual passer-by. I wanted to record the coincidence of his work being displayed on the very road of his subject, Good's Way, as it now in 2017.



    This is taken from the temporary canal path beside the construction works on the canal, you can see the tops of the new 'Gasholder' appartment blocks in the distance.



    The tranquility of the Regent's Canal early on a sunday morning when no one else is about! The main lines into St Pancras station go over the canal at this point.



    Bottom line, I am impressed with what I can get out a dng file. Working in Lightroom is so obviously superior to SPP it doesn't really need to be stated and being able to do so has rewarded my perservering with the DP0Q. Personally, I think it helps to support the argument that the 14mm lens on the DP0Q is a very good optic indeed. I've owned many 21mm lenses and most the same or sometimes several times more than a DP0Q, so as someone who is inherently cheap(!) I am satisfied (at last) with my purchase. I'm going to keep shooting dng until I discover whatever bugs or problems reveal themselves. You never know, maybe Sigma have finally got it right.

    Just my two cents

    LouisB
    Last edited by biglouis; 1st May 2017 at 02:42.
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  3. #253
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    Re: My new Sigma DP0Q

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I feel like I have been given a brand new camera. A different camera. One with a great 21mm lens and superb sensor. Why, oh why did Sigma not do this sooner????

    Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou, Sigma for finally giving us dng!

    My feeling is dynamic range is improved, sharpness at 100% is maintained, less appareance of flattening of subjects, better texture handling, better colour in shadows.

    A few files for you to play with. Tell me if I am fooling myself, please. There are links to full size jpegs exported from LR and the original DNG files to play with (but be aware the DNGs are 100MB files). Right click and 'save as' to download the files

    NOTE: please do not share the files - direct any interested parties to this post.


    Full sized jpeg | dng


    Full sized jpeg | dng


    Full sized jpeg | dng


    I have done some treatment trials with RawTherapee, with the first and second photo. I get almost the same results as the examples you posted.

    My opinion is that the pictures in DNG format has less noise, and color drifts than the X3F, and the details are extremely fine.
    But after doing my tests of treatment with RawTherapee on your examples and those of Dpreview, it seems easier to achieve good results from an X3F. When opening with SPP, portrait mode, NR luminance, default value SPP. NR chrominance 0. Sharpness 0, see -4. And details completely left.
    And then by processing the TIFF with rawTherapee.
    There are more noises and sometimes (not often) there is still a drift of red and green colors in the TIFF, but it corrects very well with RawTherapee. And it's easier to have a crunchy rendering.

    The DNG requires more processing, to have the right colors, as well as sharpness and micro contrasts if you want a crispy rendering (it is more difficult to bring out the micro details). In addition there are color drifts in some details (more present with dpq, at least on your examples, than with SdqH).

    An example with the Dp2q, X3F - SPP portrait mode, RawTherapee.
    Full res on Flickr
    SDIM2827-NEW-Bis by Nol Billy, sur Flickr

    29Mpix:
    SDIM2827-28Mpix-1-F-1 by Nol Billy, sur Flickr

  4. #254
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphie View Post
    What I am not sure about is WB - I assume those in the drop-down in LR are Adobe's presets and not grabbed from the DNG?
    Final question (not specifically related to DNG) - can anyone explain why the Sigma Monochrome mode always renders the image 0.5-1.0 stop underexposed compared to colour?
    The presets in ACR (so I'll presume Lr as well) are generic. And judging from the "As Shot" WB in the OOC DNGs and X3F metadata, SIGMA don't record Tint that's likely the reason behind the shift to cyan so the correction might be easier still.

    The difference in EV is down to the gain applied to each layer for colour conversion and/or the matrices to go from camera space to RGB. Ted/xpatUSA is the man to ask regards that though!
    In SPP with Merrill you can also observe the change in EV for each layer, the bottom i.e, 100% red on the mixer always being less exposed.

    Cheers,
    Tom.

  5. #255
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    My first 'fail' with DNG (using dp2 Quattro) whilst doing some test shots - buttercups amongst some greenery, half of the petals had overexposed to white. I don't know why the Quattro sometimes does this, especially with flowers in the sun, but I do know that with X3F I could probably have recovered with the overexposure compensation tick box.

    Lee

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    Senior Member ggibson's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphie View Post
    My first 'fail' with DNG (using dp2 Quattro) whilst doing some test shots - buttercups amongst some greenery, half of the petals had overexposed to white. I don't know why the Quattro sometimes does this, especially with flowers in the sun, but I do know that with X3F I could probably have recovered with the overexposure compensation tick box.

    Lee
    Isn't that overexposure compensation just an intelligent fill option?

  7. #257
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ggibson View Post
    Isn't that overexposure compensation just an intelligent fill option?
    Kind of. The dpQ sensor has "overexposure pixels" on the sensor that are less sensitive. So SPP tries to fill blown out areas with the color information it gets from those pixels.
    It can work on even surfaces, like skies. But mostly i don't find it satisfying.
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  8. #258
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphie View Post
    My first 'fail' with DNG (using dp2 Quattro) whilst doing some test shots - buttercups amongst some greenery, half of the petals had overexposed to white. I don't know why the Quattro sometimes does this, especially with flowers in the sun, but I do know that with X3F I could probably have recovered with the overexposure compensation tick box.

    Lee
    I should have made it clear in my initial enthusiastic meanderings that the problem with the Quattro blowing highlights has not been 'solved' by introducing dng. Nor would one expect it to be as it is a function of the sensor and not the software. I'm only hoping that Sigma are not in denial about this problem with their sensors as this is something which really does need to be addressed in future products.

    I don't know if the propensity to blow highlights has been reduced with the new SD Quattro cameras - especially the H.

    LouisB

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    The highlight "blowing" issue is a direct consequence of the Analog Front End, not the sensor per se; see SD14 vs SD15 for example, so SIGMA are definitely aware of it! Given the tick-tock nature of SIGMA's past, Quattro mkII will probably be AFE-less and thus won't suffer the same issue.

    P.S, Kalpanika doesn't clip as severely as SPP but does require tint correction. So SIGMA potentially clip at the point at which the data is unreliable/inaccurate. If they clip the DNG similarly then that's a shame seeing as other software feature powerful highlight recovery options.

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Collioure, Languedoc-Roussillon region of France. Pyrnes-Orientales and close to the Spanish border easter Pyrenese. Some exceptional wines being made there now in spite of Languedoc's reputation for filling up the European wine lake with industrial grade plonk.

    Last edited by furtle; 8th May 2017 at 07:01.
    Steve
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  11. #261
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Whichford Woods, Warwickshire. The Bluebells will be over very soon and finally a bit of sun to brighten them up.

    Steve
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphie View Post
    My first 'fail' with DNG (using dp2 Quattro) whilst doing some test shots - buttercups amongst some greenery, half of the petals had overexposed to white. I don't know why the Quattro sometimes does this, especially with flowers in the sun, but I do know that with X3F I could probably have recovered with the overexposure compensation tick box.

    Lee
    Hello Lee, I don't think it is DNG but all modes where the Quattro will blow highlights. There is no handbook on how to use Quattro cameras and everyone using them has a favoured method of camera settings and image development. Your example of yellow flowers blown out to white is very easy to do and I think it was Quentin who first highlighted this. Lately, in DPReview there was a recommendation to Expose To The Right (ETTR) referencing the histogram with the reasoning being the Quattro sensor needs maximum light to minimise noise. This is technically correct but it is a sure fire way to blow the highlights!

    My experience is when the highlights are blown, they are gone. Nothing in SPP will recover them. This is why I always bracket three shots and pick the best compromise.

    The SFD mode on the Quattro has opened up a whole new world but it is strictly for use with static scenes and tripod use. SFD produces noise free photos with even the deepest shadows being clean. The seven shot XFI photo have three "1.0 EV difference" shots either side of a 0.0 EV base shot. This definitely over exposes and blows the highlights for the high EV shots. But if you set the camera to, say, EV -0.7 then this becomes the base shot and the higher EV shots are moderated. I hope Sigma release a software update allowing the user to select the EV difference (say, 0.3) between the seven shots because an EV difference of 1.0 is brutal.

    I'm happy with my dp0Q now and find the technical quality of the photos it produces to be very good (artistic merits are another subject....). But this has been a journey of great disappointments and frustrations. Sigma may be an innovative company but launching a camera such as the Quattro without an easily digestible tutorial is madness.
    Steve

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    The manual or tutorial should not be easily digestible. One can get hungry while waiting for SPP to perform an instruction.

  14. #264
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    I am a complete convert now to dng on the my DP0Q. I can't think why I would go back to X3F. It is not only the workflow which is simpler but I genuinely feel as though the images quality is better. Obviously, the blown highlights issues has not disappeared so I continue to bracket or use filters.

    Yesterday, I even began to think about changing my beloved DP3M for the DP3 Quattro just so I can shoot with dng (and I love my DP3M!).

    Wide angle macro shot with DP0Q:

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  15. #265
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Heck, that's a pretty great macro with the DP0! Who needs the DP3?

    Just kidding, that's great to hear you are so happy with DNG. I must admit, it makes me want to pick up a Quattro, despite the body style/ergonomics holding me back.

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by furtle View Post
    Lately, in DPReview there was a recommendation to Expose To The Right (ETTR) referencing the histogram with the reasoning being the Quattro sensor needs maximum light to minimise noise. This is technically correct but it is a sure fire way to blow the highlights!
    Hi Steve, ETTR is to protect highlights! If you're blowing highlights whilst using ETTR then something is going wrong; I pre-ordered the dp0 and have shot ETTR from day one with 1EV bracketing and mostly use the +1EV without any clipping issues.
    I bought the kit but rarely use the LVF-01, the Live Histogram is small but perfectly formed

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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Quote Originally Posted by tagscuderia View Post
    Hi Steve, ETTR is to protect highlights! If you're blowing highlights whilst using ETTR then something is going wrong; I pre-ordered the dp0 and have shot ETTR from day one with 1EV bracketing and mostly use the +1EV without any clipping issues.
    I bought the kit but rarely use the LVF-01, the Live Histogram is small but perfectly formed
    It's mostly bright light through tree branches yellows of flowers that I find get clipped at higher EV values. Anyhow, we all seem to have our own way of using these Sigma cameras and processing the images. Now we have DNG and SFD added to the mix.

    A tree Peony bloom snapped off and looked forlorn. Plonked in a vase it'll do well as a cut flower for a few days. The dp0Q managed pretty well on my kitchen table.

    Steve
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  18. #268
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    Had a meeting in Birmingham yesterday and the centre around the Bull Ring has been massively developed with the Selfridges building looking great. The old iconic Rotunda still stands; I don't suppose they had the heart to pull it down. Certainly improved since I did Civ Eng at Birmingham Uni! A few pics as I had my dp0Q in my bag.







    Steve
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  19. #269
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    Re: Sigma DP0 Quattro shots

    The digital X-Pan. 21:9 ratio.
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