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Thread: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    So, yesterday, Pentax announced and priced the K1, the first 35mm digital Pentax camera.

    You can see the specs over here : http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/products/k-1/index.html

    Sigma said in an interview, many months ago, that they are working on the SD1 successor. Since we do not have any news for now I wonder what will be announced. Let me put it straight : Sigma camera division is doomed if they do not provide something "new" or at least as exciting as the Merrill.

    Why ? because of the specifications and the price of the K1. The K1 bring exoticism for the ones who want to shoot "different", exactly like the Sigma crowd. Pentax also have a large range of lenses and it is probable that Sigma will jump in the K mount again. Zeiss might also jump without speaking about pentax developing new lenses. So we have a GREAT all around functional DSLR made for durability, with a great sensor, great DR, resolution AND, if needed, the FOVEON resolution on steroid (36MP x 3). All of that for under 1800 $.

    For me, it is a home run for Pentax.

    So, I experienced the Sigma evolution back when I had orinal DPs and SD15. I was mesmerized when suddenly they announced and provided the Merrill... From 5 MP to 15 MP with foveon >> huge blast on screen and print. Somehow the D800 was almost out-resolved at base ISO.

    Today things didn't changed that much, many years after. No revolution I mean but the pixel shift technology + very good sensors just kill the purpose of a limited SIGMA camera such as the SD or even the DP.

    So, how do you see SIGMA future camera ? Do you think they will be able to circumnavigate the actual context and provide us a sort of "new Merrill" ?
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    ...Sigma said in an interview, many months ago, that they are working on the SD1 successor. Since we do not have any news for now I wonder what will be announced. Let me put it straight ...
    Many month ago Sigma was for sure on the quatro road, so they developed a SDq, after the "success" of the quatros they are in doubt to bring this SDq. So what will they do?
    I am not a technican, so I dont know why they left the "classic" foveon road with 1:1:1 pixels design and changed to quatro, but I think they didnt just for fun, there must be reasons, maybe technical or, as you wrote sometimes ago, financial.
    DP2 they improved slightly to DP2s and DP2x, so they could go with DP2m and bring a DP2ms, all I want is a tiltable screen and working live view, I allways shoot M mode and its a shame that changes in time or aperture dont show on the screen. My first digicam was a Minolta, where live view worked and I dont understand that sigma isnt able to do this about 15 years later, same with zebra, you have it after shooting but not in the preview.
    SIGMA, bring out an improved DPm.
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    I'm pretty sure, the SD1Q will not have any revolutionary features, except maybe live view. But it will have the usual Quattro sensor, maybe with a slightly improved SPP processing.
    The DP line is more successful, so putting too much effort in the SD will be a loss.
    But it will be snappier (faster write times) than the SD1, with longer battery life, better screen, better AF system etc. Things you would expect. And the price will be "low" from the start. (1699.- Dollars maybe?) There is a loyal Sigma fanbase that will buy any Sigma DSLR.
    This seems to be enough for Sigma not to lose too much money on its DSLR line.

    Hope i'm wrong and Sigma will surprise us :-D
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    I seen here and on other forums that a lot of Sigma users would love to have an EVF on a DP body style, why not something like the fuji X100. I think that is possible but again, Sigma camera are "cheap" because they are extremely limited in feature. Developing a new body with EVF might raise the price a bit.

    Anyway, CP+ is close, very close. If Sigma should announce something it will be very soon. Otherwise we will wait till kina in Fall 2016.

    Today there is new firmware for the Quattro + a new SPP :

    The difference of color reproduction between the latest firmware and the conventional firmware?SIGMA CORPORATION

    Here is also some silent announcements available in Japanese but not in English :

    THE KIT

    THE CASH BACK

    Note that the cash back is only Japan for now but, as usual, it will leak on other country before summer.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    ....Today there is new firmware for the Quattro + a new SPP :...
    just seems to be an improvment in AWB, nothing that couldnt be done in PS.^^
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Quote Originally Posted by foveon View Post
    just seems to be an improvement in AWB, nothing that couldn't be done in PS.^^
    Exactly but it is less PS at home and more accurate out of SPP files (I hope)
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Here is a false leaked rumour. So it seems Sigma continue to trust into APS-C. We can foresee that there is no FF foveon this year. defo.

    Who want a non stabilized 50-100mm for APS-C ?

    https://translate.google.com/transla...c-hsm-art.html

    Ok it looks good. On a D500 it can be a very good lens. But the lack of stabilization ... 100mm... One thousand, four hundred and fifty grammes... mmmm

    Sure there is more to come in the next days.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    I think Pentax are not so clever. They are using optical viewfinders and mirror technology. This is a dead technology. Something from the last century. It is a shame, the K1 might have been attractive to me if they had made it mirrorless.

    As for Foveon technology, the original 3 layer design - I am not even convinced that still exists, in terms of production. I know Foveon is owned by Sigma but there is no current news and the Foveon website has not been updated since 2010.

    Sigma is having such success with its lens lines that it gives rise to the question, why are they bothering with cameras?

    I suspect we may all end up owning valuable, sought after camera arcana in years to come.

    There again, maybe Sigma will surprise us all with a thoroughly modern CSC sometime in the future.

    LouisB

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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I..They are using optical viewfinders and mirror technology. This is a dead technology....
    Sorry, but I cannot agree. Beside my Sigmas I shoot eg sport with Nikons, its hard enough to get the right moment with an optical viewfinder, but its much harder without. All kind of electronic finders create a delay and thats the reason optical finders will stay "forever", at least I hope^^
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    I think Pentax/Ricoh are more clever than everyone of us reunited. Mirror and OVF sell more than Mirrorless and EVF and this will continue for a while. I only read such bold claim from ppl who seems very blind and a bit rich. That's strange in photography. If one want EVF today he should go either crop ... or Sony ?? Leica ??

    Cheap Sony A7 are more noisy and clumsy than anything else and are quickly forgotten. Ergonomy is a nightmare and the menu are an insult to all common sense. Resale value is so low that you feel betrayed big time, either on lenses or the body. Nobody want second hand Sony gear.
    But if you go high end and buy an A7R2 or an A7S2, yes, then you have something cool (yea ??), TWO TIME THE PRICE of the K1 who offer better ergonomy and more photography features. Did I spoke about the sony lenses ? You want good lenses either you buy into the new GM line or zeiss. At the end the Sony way is one of the most costly today.

    Cheap Leica SL ... hooo stop, there is no cheap leica SL, or any Leica gear either. So I won't speak about leica lenses.

    People around us are not rich, AT ALL. Some of you have the luxury to offer yourself such expensive items this is good for you. Meanwhile, in APS-C world, the D500 will sale like hot cakes while the XPRO 2 will just try to lift up in sales. In full frame world the 6D/D750 will continue to be sold like hot cakes. The K1 will be sold far more than any A7R mark II because of the price (and many other things...).

    So some are tired to ear "sony is crap" and I'm tired to ear "Mirror is dead". Both statements are wrong and aren't in accordance with what should be the spirit of the forum.

    The correct statement is "both technology have their advantages and flaws".
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Hulyss and Foveon, I was perhaps being a tad controversial about the optical viewfinder on the K1.

    Personally, I would not buy a camera now (can you?) which does not have live view but also a EVF. I've just found it so useful in adjusting EV but that just shows how lazy I am!

    But I agree that the K1 looks a better buy than the Sony A7R and I totally agree about the better lens range.

    As you know I am a Sony user but they have truly p*ss*d me off with some of their lenses. Out of 5 Sony lens purchases two have been poor (and are returned/sold), one average (which I keep for convenience over IQ) and two spectacular (although one has a size which is completely out of proportion to a CSC system).

    One good thing about the Sigma DP2M and 3M is that they are what they are. I'm still tempted to give the DP0Q another try.

    But I still think that Sigma do not have their heart in camera systems but I hope they surprise us with something really good in 2016.

    Just my two cents.

    LouisB
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    So, yesterday, Pentax announced and priced the K1, the first 35mm digital Pentax camera.

    So, I experienced the Sigma evolution back when I had orinal DPs and SD15. I was mesmerized when suddenly they announced and provided the Merrill... From 5 MP to 15 MP with foveon >> huge blast on screen and print. Somehow the D800 was almost out-resolved at base ISO.

    Today things didn't changed that much, many years after. No revolution I mean but the pixel shift technology + very good sensors just kill the purpose of a limited SIGMA camera such as the SD or even the DP.

    So, how do you see SIGMA future camera ? Do you think they will be able to circumnavigate the actual context and provide us a sort of "new Merrill" ?
    Over the past 3 weeks I've travelled widely from Turkey to New Zealand and the United States and purposely left my Nikon at home and relied solely on the SD1 mated to the 18-35 zoom and the combination certainly did not let me down. A robust, well designed camera with a good user interface. For me, if there is to be a future SD1 I'd love it to have the same sensor but with faster processing. Although it buffers adequately, the camera is unusable while it does it. Autofocus is very slow and really only adequate for static subjects in good light. The battery is only just adequate so a bigger capacity would be welcome. Lastly, an SD card would be so much more convenient than the CF. All these things aside I just love the output from this camera.

    Some examples from Arizona:

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    Do I regret leaving the Nikon at home? Hmm, maybe. It was liberating just having one camera and lens combi but it did mean not having a tool for lower light.
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    @LouisB

    I agree about the live view. This is essential feature for landscape photography today. The EVF is optional for me and do not bring more of less to my photography. I had the XT-1 and was not impressed, at all. The A7R neither. So I'm surprised because there is "some" advantages" but optical science kill the purpose. Mirror-less and EVF mean less weight right ? herr.. no. If one want good lenses on MILC he will have weight. A lot of weight. In the hands, a tiny body and a big lens are not comfortable at all. So for me MILC is like a sort of inflated stock market. Ppl bet on it and suddenly it vanish because it is probably good for so called "street photographers" but the others need something more ergonomic (so bigger).

    The future technology who need to be supported is global shutter OR leaf shutter lenses. This, in full frame, will be something very good. But global shutter produce heat. A red epic have active cooling with fans and trust me, it is hot, very hot. So there is work to do on this technology. So I would like to see a company innovating, other than MF lens maker, to craft APS-C and FF LS lenses.

    @rdubois

    I used the SD1m for a long time and it is a love/hate relationship. Sure, it deliver when all is good but some things can go wild and out of control : focusing.
    So, since nobody can really rely on the SD1 AF, one will want to manual focus. But manual focusing in landscape without live view is a non sense today. A DSLR, especially an APS-C dslr with APS-C lenses (as good as they can be) can't be as precise as a tech cam or a mfdb with technical lenses.
    For moving ppl such as kids or women, with the 85f1.4 wide open ? AF ? nope. I sold it but I was about to trash it ! very very frustrating camera especialy when the DP HAVE live view. Hard time to understand the logic behind that.

    Your photos are beautiful.


    I really hope Sigma will up the game and surprise us, yes. I call this faith at this level
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    ...especialy when the DP HAVE live view....
    Did I miss something, dont find live view on my DP^^

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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post

    I really hope Sigma will up the game and surprise us, yes. I call this faith at this level
    The fanaticism of Sigma users borders on the religious at times :-)
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    My new book "Whitechapel in 50 BUildings", Flikr Stream, www.louisberk.com
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    neopaganism, like nikon vs canon, apple vs pc or city vs manu^^
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Foveon ? No ! Pixel Shift. No foveon today is able to render like that (DR/noise/color). Right click to see in big.

    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    This is from the new Pentax?

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Quote Originally Posted by foveon View Post
    This is from the new Pentax?
    Yes >> http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/engli.../ex/index.html
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Senior Member Malina DZ's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Foveon ? No ! Pixel Shift.
    Not bad, definitely an improvement over a single Bayer shot. Good for still life, product photography, and real estate. No use for handheld shooting or portraits...

    Pixel-shift this!

    click for a full size jpg.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    Does this photo have any interest or will be printed ? I do not think so. Why bother with foveon quality for "sunday afternoon in the flower garden with grandma" photos ? The K1 offer the comfort of a "top of the line" bayer and the option to "foveon" things. Most foveon users I know try to use foveon like a Leica, aka street photo, and this need skills either in photo and PP. The others are landscape photographers. For landscape photographers, sorry, the Pentax is the better option.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Senior Member Malina DZ's Avatar
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    Re: SD1 successor / how SIGMA will answer concurence.

    The photo was posted to supplement the above statement "No use for handheld shooting" and moving subjects.
    On the other hand, why would one bother with K1 for "sunday afternoon in the flower garden with grandma"?
    I'd give the title of the "top of the line" bayer to P1 IQ 100Mpx sensor.
    K1 is a great option for photographers out there and I'm not going to argue about that.
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