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SD Quattro early lemon review -

darr

Well-known member
... a new species of Jurassic ostrich.
:ROTFL: :ROTFL: :ROTFL:

Well, as far as the sample photos go, I am not surprised. :scry:
I had a strange feeling something like this was going to happen.

The Merrill Foveon cameras are where my interest in Sigma cameras began and ended.
Long Live the Merrill Foveon!! (said the younger than Jurassic ostrich) :talk028:

 

UHDR

New member
i agree with everything being said here. i cant help but to think sigma might have taken a hit during merrill by outputting 3 fixed lens camera. amazing as each is, it's hard pressed to get anyone to buy all three i.e. difficult to cover the development cost.

in some way, i feel they should have stucked with merrill for another generation like Intel's tick-tock cycle and focus on performance for second generation. But i think since the new CEO took over, he had to do some "headline grabbing" things. Looking at the Q series, it just feels like they cant help but to up the resolution and try to cut cost by going with the new layout. now seeing they can create an APS-H based cam, i wish they launch a merrill APS-H with the new mirrorless body. i will ditch everything i have in a heartbeat and jump ship. oh well....such is life......folding with a pair of aces.....:banghead:
 

xpatUSA

Member
My two cents:

In spite of the almost universal condemnation of the sd Quattro example shots, the quality of those shots is no reason to condemn the camera itself.

Personally, I don't intend to buy any Quattro; nevertheless, I have seen excellent images produced by Quattro-powered cameras - just as I have seen stunning images produced by the humble SD9.

Therefore, instead of slamming the sd Quattro based on only one man's shots, should we not postpone judgement until we see more shots - like, from people like us?

Best Regards,

Ted
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
i agree with everything being said here. i cant help but to think sigma might have taken a hit during merrill by outputting 3 fixed lens camera. amazing as each is, it's hard pressed to get anyone to buy all three i.e. difficult to cover the development cost.

in some way, i feel they should have stucked with merrill for another generation like Intel's tick-tock cycle and focus on performance for second generation. But i think since the new CEO took over, he had to do some "headline grabbing" things. Looking at the Q series, it just feels like they cant help but to up the resolution and try to cut cost by going with the new layout. now seeing they can create an APS-H based cam, i wish they launch a merrill APS-H with the new mirrorless body. i will ditch everything i have in a heartbeat and jump ship. oh well....such is life......folding with a pair of aces.....:banghead:
That's it. They will answer you the DPQ design is mandatory as well as the sdQ design. They will tell you that they putted the battery far away from the sensor to reduce noise and that they putted the sdQ EVF at this place for the same reason. The blotching noise inherent of the Merrill and previous generation can be very well corrected in no time in many software. In lightroom there is a special slider for it and in PS it take less than one minute. I'm lazy but a PS script can be even crafted in no time for the lazy guys.

So imagine the noise level if they crammed everything in the Q ... unbelievable.

People should communicate more everywhere on this instead of defending the brand. But you'll always have some 60 + years old guys who think they know the whole universe of Jurassic ostrich world, telling you that are wrong because numbers or old retired engineers said so. Meanwhile many of us live of photography, use cameras and format from every brands and some might even work with Vogue. But no, you're wrong, you don't know how to use the camera when you can teach them all that cats aren't the main subject, even if the world is governed by cat and giant ostriches.

More seriously it is not bashing. It is information for sigma that they can go serious, more than their lenses, if they put investment and "logic" in their camera section. Engineers aren't photographers and barely artists. Feedback from photographers is imho a best way to follow especially in the case of sigma.

I should have give up since AGES on this subject but I'm attached to this brand because I started my professional career with DP cameras and got lot of success even with the limited range. I have emotional roots in this brand.
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
My two cents:

In spite of the almost universal condemnation of the sd Quattro example shots, the quality of those shots is no reason to condemn the camera itself.

Personally, I don't intend to buy any Quattro; nevertheless, I have seen excellent images produced by Quattro-powered cameras - just as I have seen stunning images produced by the humble SD9.

Therefore, instead of slamming the sd Quattro based on only one man's shots, should we not postpone judgement until we see more shots - like, from people like us?

Best Regards,

Ted
Ted I admire your technician skills because, even if many do not freaking understand number and colour science, you are right.

You know the Δ between a humble SD9 X3f processing time and the Δ of the Quattro.

You can't say there is any progression over there.

We live in a time where phone technology (where the money and tech is) is exponentially exponential.

Sigma is regressing while they have the tech to progress. Quattro isn't it !
 

xpatUSA

Member
Ted I admire your technician skills because, even if many do not freaking understand number and colour science, you are right.

You know the Δ between a humble SD9 X3f processing time and the Δ of the Quattro.

You can't say there is any progression over there.

We live in a time where phone technology (where the money and tech is) is exponentially exponential.

Sigma is regressing while they have the tech to progress. Quattro isn't it !
Hulyss, for once I agree with you. :)

I myself stopped buying Sigmas with the SD1 Merrill. It's the only Merrill I own.

I have the better of the two DSLR F7 sensors, in the SD10.

I have the F13 and DP13 sensors in the SD14 and DP2s.

And the F20 sensor in the SD1M.

Of those, the F13/DP13 are about the best and the DP2s usually manages to out-shoot the SD14 - image quality-wise.

I think that the Merrill, admired by so many people, represents a limit for the current sensor fabricators especially in the lower layers - it certainly has oddities when you dig down to raw data level (which most people never see).

So, my Merrill is dedicated to IR/full spectrum work, at which it is the best, and the others for normal shooting.

cheers,
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
- This Large Beast -

The camera... not the girl !


- Is an ode to Pointillism -

And blotching and mushiness and many things...


Full size here



Full size here

More HERE for the ones who like eye bleeding.

The 12Mp of a venerable D700 are so much more pleasing with good glasses ... (I do not speak about later models of course)
 

Stoneage

Member
for the ones who like eye bleeding.
It's really strange. The Quattro sensor can deliver finest details (you can count every leaf) and it surely outperforms the Merrill in a resolution test, the colors actually also look good and natural, but in the same time the images look flat, lifeless and noisy. There is no feel of textures and materials. Out of focus areas look bad also.
I don't understand what's happening.
 

Tim

Active member
The Q images are great/good but have their issues and things would have been better with a true foveon IMO.
For me I may as well stay with the DP2 or DP2M images that I make. That is the problem.
If someone sent me a Q I'd give it a try, but I won't put my own money behind one.

You can't say there is any progression over there.
Sigma is regressing while they have the tech to progress. Quattro isn't it !
This is where I see it also.

and the DP2s usually manages to out-shoot the SD14 - image quality-wise.
I feel it would have worked better if they continued to evolve the DP2 sensor pitch. Larger sensor, match a great lens.
The DP2 is a rare thing, its like a cult within a cult IQ wise.
 
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xpatUSA

Member
It's really strange. The Quattro sensor can deliver finest details (you can count every leaf) and it surely outperforms the Merrill in a resolution test, the colors actually also look good and natural, but in the same time the images look flat, lifeless and noisy. There is no feel of textures and materials. Out of focus areas look bad also.
I don't understand what's happening.
I get the impression the difference, by and large, is in Sigma's firmware and software - rather than the resolution. I say that because the maximum sensor spatial frequency (Nyquist) for Quattro is 115 lp/mm and for Merrill is 102 lp/mm - not enough of a difference to write home about.

But simple spatial frequency does not tell the whole story. If, after conversion, the MTF (contrast ratio) of the Quattro for a given spatial frequency is lower than that for a Merrill then the Quattro will lose and indeed look flatter and more lifeless. In other words, MTF and resolution are related but are not actually the same thing.

In case the mention of "MTF" makes folk's eyes glaze over, that is the same MTF that is studied so diligently when comparing lens graphs and is just as relevant when applied to sensors and raw converters (in-camera or out).

It could be that Quattro processing (not in low-res), which performs similar antics to JPEG and to TV, namely chroma sub-sampling, is one culprit for the "lack of texture".
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
I've got the confirmation, by Dongbuhitek Korea themselves, that they craft the sensor and only the sensor for sigma. They do not provide any processor or any kind of circuitry behind. That mean that sigma get a nude sensor from a factory and everything else elsewhere, probably Japan as well as the processor who is in fact a Fujitsu processor and probably not the best one (judging by what we found in the DP3m).

Dongbuhiteck told me that they are able and can provide OPTIMIZED circuitry and electronic for their sensors, out of the factory EVEN for the foveon. Because SIGMA want most component "Made in Japan" we have the actual un-optimized quattro mess. To many different hands on the same device leading to some major errors IMHO.

I asked them if they can craft a 24x36 up-scaled F13 processor but didn't gave me any response YET because they need to ask an engineer. It was on phone so they sent me a mail and I replied with more technical questions. I do not expect any more answer but we start to see why, ho why, this camera is so sad.

The devil is in the hardware Ted, in majority, and in the software of course because everything is linked.
 

biglouis

Well-known member
Too big for me.

I'm going for a Hass X1D - much smaller ;)


(Only joking but I don't think I'll be giving house room to the SD)
 

biglouis

Well-known member
It's really strange. The Quattro sensor can deliver finest details (you can count every leaf) and it surely outperforms the Merrill in a resolution test, the colors actually also look good and natural, but in the same time the images look flat, lifeless and noisy. There is no feel of textures and materials. Out of focus areas look bad also.
I don't understand what's happening.
I find this with the Quattro DP0 and it is entirely inconsistent.

Although looking at the forest pic and thinking back to the times I've seen mush and noise with the DP0 I wonder if it is a problem with processing greens?

LouisB
 

biglouis

Well-known member
BTW, just to remind everyone how awesome the DP2M (Merrill sensor) camera is - something I posted in my Flickr stream today.

Inside Mametz Wood, July 2013 - take a look at the half-size direct to jpeg file on FLickr. Awesome, crisp detail.


On Flickr
 

Sindhabd

New member
Ok guys , let's wait for better reviews that are going to come out soon...But I'm affraid that this camera I was waiting for going to be a holly crap...If its real , it's going to be a shame for foveon lovers who were waiting, like me, an interchangeable lenses system from Sigma.
I get the DP2M and I'm reallyhappy and impress by the resulting pics, in sharpness but moreover in term of modelé, colors, shades...The lens is a blast but its only f2.8 and with the crappy iso limitation you are limited to good dailight conditions, as you all do allready know. My interest was being able to use foveon with Art lenses...but I'm affraid that I will have to wait for Sigma's next generation...hopping that they'll find better solutions...
Like...simply a Merrill with interchangeable lenses...Pffff that would have be a crazyness of a camera...but they seems to have take the wrong path...anyway , lets wait for seriously made reviews...I can't simply not believe that they fail so badly with the SDQ...
I was just planning to sell my DP2M to can afford the SDQ...but I think I will not do so ! :cool:
That little compact camera is great for the day and I love it so much, I decide not to sell it ! Never ^^
Anyway, I allready get a solution for my night sessions and high isos stuffs...I've ordered an X-Pro1 which price is a bargain now that the 2 is out! (550€ euros brand new!).
I've seen lots of really great photographers using X-Pro1 around Flickr and still shooting it nowadays.Owners really appreciate it (lots of vids in youtube).
So I will keep the DP2M for the razor bestiality merrill thing and the Fuji for all others with legacy lenses and adapters..It's going to be funny ! And I will earn the money of sigma Art lenses and SDQ! hahahaha may be for Fujinon great little glasses like the 35 1.4 xf or 56 1.2 xf :)
To take a look at my little DP2M things :) they are here : Fluidr / david_sanchez_astudillo's photos and videos
sorry for my english limitations as it's not my first language.... ;)
 

Sindhabd

New member
At the time there was a little controversy , about DPM VS DPQ...For what I could read (various tests , comparatives etc), majority of results were showing that DPM were better in IQ...and obviously in size!
 

biglouis

Well-known member
Actually, in all seriousness, is the Foveon party over with the arrival of the Hass X1D?

Yes, it is expensive but it also is good value for money when you consider what you are getting.

And the portents are that Fuji and Sony will respond with even cheaper large format high density (e.g. 50mpx) sensor cameras and I am sure they will be significantly cheaper.

I am not about to get rid of my DPxM cameras (I did that once with the DP3M, regretted it within about two weeks and bought another!). But there is no doubt the DP0Q I own is not the same beast even though it does have a superb wide angle lens.

But there again as 'Sindbhad' says we really do have to wait for some 'professional' reviews. I expect Sean Reid will do one as he has always been a keen Sigma supporter.

Just my two cents

LouisB
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
There is one already:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd1

Did you mean a SD2 Merrill?

Ted
No, actually I think he want my Sigma SP seen in post #7. Titanium plated EM shielded internal parts optimized for skin effect, Magnelock™ mount; no need to screw the lens, just magnetic stick and lock it for better precision, leaf shutter lenses for compactness, cortex arm processor, 16 bit colour depth, wifi for pc control, open source firmware for the technicians...

Actually, in all seriousness, is the Foveon party over with the arrival of the Hass X1D?

Yes, it is expensive but it also is good value for money when you consider what you are getting.

And the portents are that Fuji and Sony will respond with even cheaper large format high density (e.g. 50mpx) sensor cameras and I am sure they will be significantly cheaper.

I am not about to get rid of my DPxM cameras (I did that once with the DP3M, regretted it within about two weeks and bought another!). But there is no doubt the DP0Q I own is not the same beast even though it does have a superb wide angle lens.

But there again as 'Sindbhad' says we really do have to wait for some 'professional' reviews. I expect Sean Reid will do one as he has always been a keen Sigma supporter.

Just my two cents

LouisB
I think the XD1 isn't a menace at all. Not the same budget. Same target but not same budget at all. I think that sigma want to fight with big marketing effort on the "art" plan and the "resolution" plan but they fail once devices tested. It is fun, it is cool, it is an old scheme but at the end you wont use it professionally especially because of heavy shady processing behind. All in one that make film more user friendly.

So yes it will be tested, the pros will provide technically perfect photos, the cons will provide crap photos and will point the flaws. All in one all of this do not matter. It is useless for street shooting because to heavy PP time behind and far too big camera. It is useless for many landscapes because it do not resolve like a Merrill and can show unrecoverable flaws (noise/blotches...) and need again lot of processing time behind the scene. It is mostly useless in studio because 1/180 Xsync, because the shutter is cheapskate. A DPQ will be a better studio camera. It is useless for any kind of action shoot, family, weeding, life, joy, apart far away surfers or birds who do not move on a branch. The SFD mode ? yea ... lets see how it work in landscape if there is even 1 knot of wind over the already water-painted background leafs.

At the end, most of the lenses used on it will cost the same price and often a bigger price than the camera itself.

Men, there is so many better and cheap cameras outhere ! So yea you'll not have the super resolution (most of you do not print at all) and anyway this super resolution is a Merrill time thing. But you'll have far more freedom to make a picture, you'll not waste your time adjusting colours/noise and even less time to develop the raw with all supported tolls available on the market. You'll make photos and will be more outdoor shooting than indoor post processing. THIS is photography, not the inverse !

The Quattro H might be better in general IQ but as I said, processing time might be disastrous.

If one should spend that much time behind a computer it should worth it, like the Merrill in his time. The Merrill worth it (but it is the limit).

It is why ppl would pardon if they come with a big fat optimized Merrill. But what they did ? They did a in camera JPEG engine lol. Why not an in camera TIFF or DNG engine ????

Anyway I support SIGMA,but not in there mistakes.
 
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