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Thread: SD Quattro early lemon review -

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Went trough propaganda posts over other forums and found a link to ONE page of this review. IMHO, the guy who buy the sd Q deserve hall time high glorification. Why they didn't upgraded the SD dslr ???

    Anyway, just have a look at it. To navigate, use the calendar (your on 1).

    Happy Lemon day !
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    I tried to find the lemons. But all I could really read into maros' link was that he confirms Sigma's own indication that AF sucks on non-SGV lenses.

    The frustrating thing for me is that Sigma had a very nice sensor layout, but then they decided to pursue the "next" generation. They already had the hardware to do live-view with Merrils and even before that with 4.7 MP sensor, instead they decided to regress in terms of product readiness and "alpha" testing with the first Q's. If they had scaled the 4.7 MP 1.7 crop sensor up to full frame, it would have made an excellent, relatively noise free 15 MP X3 sensor.
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    Senior Member The Ute's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by capital View Post
    I tried to find the lemons. But all I could really read into maros' link was that he confirms Sigma's own indication that AF sucks on non-SGV lenses.

    The frustrating thing for me is that Sigma had a very nice sensor layout, but then they decided to pursue the "next" generation. They already had the hardware to do live-view with Merrils and even before that with 4.7 MP sensor, instead they decided to regress in terms of product readiness and "alpha" testing with the first Q's. If they had scaled the 4.7 MP 1.7 crop sensor up to full frame, it would have made an excellent, relatively noise free 15 MP X3 sensor.
    They went down the wrong road.
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Well, I see the photo (and the others) noisy as possible. I see problems with AF, fugly corners, waterpaint rendering ala Xtrans or oversharpening, top class fringe level with the supposed superior latest 50-100 f1.8 and I see a guy trying to figure out how to fix this in post. Everything is all-right.
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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by capital View Post
    If they had scaled the 4.7 MP 1.7 crop sensor up to full frame, it would have made an excellent, relatively noise free 15 MP X3 sensor.
    Such a wonderful, wonderful idea. That sensor is special. IMO if you stay below a certain size the 4.7Mp print looks better than a Merrill. Unfortunately the rest of the camera/s are at best... tedious to use.

    As you suggest, they should have stayed the IQ king with the 4.7 and not chased low noise with the Q tech.
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Well, I see the photo (and the others) noisy as possible. I see problems with AF, fugly corners, waterpaint rendering ala Xtrans or oversharpening, top class fringe level with the supposed superior latest 50-100 f1.8 and I see a guy trying to figure out how to fix this in post. Everything is all-right.
    Now the bad news is out of the way, anything good to report?
    Steve

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Such a wonderful, wonderful idea. That sensor is special. IMO if you stay below a certain size the 4.7Mp print looks better than a Merrill. Unfortunately the rest of the camera/s are at best... tedious to use.

    As you suggest, they should have stayed the IQ king with the 4.7 and not chased low noise with the Q tech.
    I think they could have jumped directly on a 24x36 15 MP sensor. A big up-scale of the Merrill. 4.7 MP is a bit low seriously. Or at least 12 MP. The Q tech introduce more noise than the previous sensors by the way. I prefer color noise at some places than luma noise everywhere on the photo...

    Quote Originally Posted by furtle View Post
    Now the bad news is out of the way, anything good to report?
    Yes ! SPP 6.4 is SLOWER than any SPP to date. You can interpret that as a + or a -

    It is time to send a warning to SIGMA and stop any proselytism or fanboyism. The first generations of DP followed by the S series was just exceptional. I know a lot of leica users who bought a DP2 or a DP2s back in the day. It was unique, light camera and light files, superb IQ. The Merrill was a huge jump in rendering and resolution, more hard to master but still... you know ...

    There were a time where many thought that SIGMA, with the DP line, might become a sort of Japanese leica. All was here : compact form, simple menus, 1/1/1 sensor and very good lenses.

    They screwed it up big time, so hard that it is unbelievable. X3f files are now beyond comprehension necessitating round trips between SPP / PS / plugins ... while DP2s files was so straight forward good. There is a regression. Regression in compactness and file quality (resolutions isn't the main point here).
    There is no way Adobe will integrate such a mess in there program, no way ever.

    The sdQ is a lens sucker. Many will need the so famous dock (wtf...) to make lenses work almost correctly. Some will need nose surgery to be able to use the well placed EVF and of course, even if the AF of the SD isn't that much good, the Q af (same as DP) is a regression.

    Sigma marketing say : " yea we are committed to our super user base, you know ... " WHO ??? Forum scientists ? Flower and cat shooters ? Speculators ?

    Sure they need to start to avoid listening to them for good.

    SIGMA it is time to go back to your roots. Go in the mountain with your team to think, over beautiful landscape and Japanese forests. Stop trying yourself at design to win TIPA awards ... Go back to drawing board and invest to resurrect the previous sensor at modern sauce. Invest in dev team to make a real raw developer. CHARGE us for it, many will pay. You betrayed your own quality now it's time to face it, to endorse it and to act. Camera isn't vital for you so take your time. We will be here.



    You already have LEAF SHUTTER lenses. Why Hasselblad is able to do it when it is YOUR speciality ??? Craft us serious stuff please.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Eeeek. That's the good stuff?
    Steve
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    Senior Member Malina DZ's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    With Q line ongoing development, where there are no more SPP improvements or FW updates for Merrill users, I know there is no place for any Sigma products in my arsenal, besides my dp2m. I don't even wish to rant about it, as I accepted the "no Merrill" future in Sigma's line.
    A 36x24mm X3 Foveon chip alone would make a revolution for me, even with it's mediocre high (800+) iso performance in color. P&S style camera with a leaf shutter? I'm in for any focal length! Allow 3rd party lens adoption, if it's mirrorless, and I'm in paradise!
    At one point in time, I'll let my Sony a850 and Canon 6D go, but Merrill sensor will always stay as a benchmark for true color and unaliased detail.
    I'm disappointed with Sigma's Q-line direction, but thankful for the Merrills and amazing CS and tech support of DPM line.
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    I just see a disturbance in the force when sigma CEO say :

    "My father had a great dream to make the best-quality camera using unique technology. Having taken over the business from my father, its my obligation to take over his dream."

    ... and the reality.

    I think actual CEO confuse his own dreams with his father's dreams.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    SIGMA !!! Think big sensor and fat pixels !! Go sequestrate any foundry CEO to obtain this sensor ! 15 MP full frame 1/1/1 foveon !

    My personal guard is quite upset and already craft a landing barge to raid Japan. He want a big DP2s.





    Tried my best to stop him but as you can see ... he do not joke. World Champion WPMF. You can't trick him with your kung Fu...
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    So.. I had a better look at the Lemon Review pics on a better 'puter and screen. This is a screen grab from an enlargement of the tower pic on the first page. I assume the enlargement is 100% crop.

    This and all of the other photos really poor with faults all over. Lets hope they are not representative of the production model. Maybe the person taking the photos was just rubbish.

    Steve

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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    And here is a DP2 Merrill snap. Literally grabbed at f2.8. 100% crop on that and all is well.

    Steve
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by furtle View Post
    This and all of the other photos really poor with faults all over.

    Facial expressions captured in this shot very well reflect the IQ of a quattro sensor.
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by furtle View Post
    So.. I had a better look at the Lemon Review pics on a better 'puter and screen. This is a screen grab from an enlargement of the tower pic on the first page. I assume the enlargement is 100% crop.

    This and all of the other photos really poor with faults all over. Lets hope they are not representative of the production model. Maybe the person taking the photos was just rubbish.
    Looks very much like noise reduction. I remember Maro has different processings of this image.
    But yes, quattro (or SPP) still has a noise problem, especially reds are awful. I honestly don't get it, if we take the reds of a good old DP2 and blow it up to 19.6MP, it looks better than
    what Quattro delivers.
    Kalpanika can do better than SPP though.

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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Sorry Hulyss, cannot agree, I dont want a DP2s, what I remember I never trusted this folding lens.^^

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    And if they can make a mechanical folding lens with actual technology standards ?

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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by furtle View Post
    So.. I had a better look at the Lemon Review pics on a better 'puter and screen. This is a screen grab from an enlargement of the tower pic on the first page. I assume the enlargement is 100% crop.

    This and all of the other photos really poor with faults all over. Lets hope they are not representative of the production model. Maybe the person taking the photos was just rubbish.

    Exif from that photo below. I thought these were supposed to be from the new sdQ?
    Sigma dp0 Quattro
    Lens: Sigma 14mm F4
    Exposure: Manual exposure, Aperture priority AE, 1/500 sec, f/7.1, ISO 100, Compensation: +0.7
    Date: August 5, 2015 2:28:50PM
    Color Space: sRGB
    Software: SIGMA Photo Pro 6.4.0
    Field Of View: 81.2 deg
    File: 3,616 5,424 JPEG (19.6 megapixels) 5,557,286 bytes (5.3 megabytes)
    Carl
    Gallery

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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    Exif from that photo below. I thought these were supposed to be from the new sdQ?
    Sigma dp0 Quattro
    Lens: Sigma 14mm F4
    Exposure: Manual exposure, Aperture priority AE, 1/500 sec, f/7.1, ISO 100, Compensation: +0.7
    Date: August 5, 2015 2:28:50PM
    Color Space: sRGB
    Software: SIGMA Photo Pro 6.4.0
    Field Of View: 81.2 deg
    File: 3,616 5,424 JPEG (19.6 megapixels) 5,557,286 bytes (5.3 megabytes)
    Wel, well, well. So it is.

    The other pics are from the sd Quattro. The 50-100mm at f2.8. Here are some 100% crop screen grabs from the pergoda







    Steve

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    There is a full test of the SDq on the same page. It is not even close to what can output, for example, a Pentax K3ii or a fuji. The goal in photography is to make photography, not to waste time in "sfd" mode to have something close to Merrill, and even less time in PP after the shoot.

    You take 70 shoots with any quarto camera, few of those shoot will be worthy to develop and you can start to count hours before sharing your pic.

    I said the sdQ is a lens sucker and it is. If you want the best out of it you'll gonna put money on the table for lenses, and only FF ART primes and even ... you'll have to deal with noise at BASE iso. Do you see any noise in my DP2s shoot above or the portrait of Steve ? There is none because there is none. The latest 50-100 f1.8, even if labelled ART is a lie. It is just made for hype "look we can do it" but files are ugly. The Nikon f1.8 line is superior and far cheaper.

    If you guys want to be "different" and do not like Canikon... please yourself. Buy a K1. It is cheap, it is weather sealed and rugged, it have some very good lenses and it is superior to any sigma camera to date without speaking about their pixel shift...

    The Quattro is cheap because they know you'll need to invest in there best lenses (the ones who work on it ...) to make it shine (but not at Merrill level).

    So the one who invest in ART lenses in Sigma mount are a new species of Jurassic ostrich.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    ... a new species of Jurassic ostrich.


    Well, as far as the sample photos go, I am not surprised.
    I had a strange feeling something like this was going to happen.

    The Merrill Foveon cameras are where my interest in Sigma cameras began and ended.
    Long Live the Merrill Foveon!! (said the younger than Jurassic ostrich)

    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    i agree with everything being said here. i cant help but to think sigma might have taken a hit during merrill by outputting 3 fixed lens camera. amazing as each is, it's hard pressed to get anyone to buy all three i.e. difficult to cover the development cost.

    in some way, i feel they should have stucked with merrill for another generation like Intel's tick-tock cycle and focus on performance for second generation. But i think since the new CEO took over, he had to do some "headline grabbing" things. Looking at the Q series, it just feels like they cant help but to up the resolution and try to cut cost by going with the new layout. now seeing they can create an APS-H based cam, i wish they launch a merrill APS-H with the new mirrorless body. i will ditch everything i have in a heartbeat and jump ship. oh well....such is life......folding with a pair of aces.....
    Keep It Simple.
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    My two cents:

    In spite of the almost universal condemnation of the sd Quattro example shots, the quality of those shots is no reason to condemn the camera itself.

    Personally, I don't intend to buy any Quattro; nevertheless, I have seen excellent images produced by Quattro-powered cameras - just as I have seen stunning images produced by the humble SD9.

    Therefore, instead of slamming the sd Quattro based on only one man's shots, should we not postpone judgement until we see more shots - like, from people like us?

    Best Regards,

    Ted

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by UHDR View Post
    i agree with everything being said here. i cant help but to think sigma might have taken a hit during merrill by outputting 3 fixed lens camera. amazing as each is, it's hard pressed to get anyone to buy all three i.e. difficult to cover the development cost.

    in some way, i feel they should have stucked with merrill for another generation like Intel's tick-tock cycle and focus on performance for second generation. But i think since the new CEO took over, he had to do some "headline grabbing" things. Looking at the Q series, it just feels like they cant help but to up the resolution and try to cut cost by going with the new layout. now seeing they can create an APS-H based cam, i wish they launch a merrill APS-H with the new mirrorless body. i will ditch everything i have in a heartbeat and jump ship. oh well....such is life......folding with a pair of aces.....
    That's it. They will answer you the DPQ design is mandatory as well as the sdQ design. They will tell you that they putted the battery far away from the sensor to reduce noise and that they putted the sdQ EVF at this place for the same reason. The blotching noise inherent of the Merrill and previous generation can be very well corrected in no time in many software. In lightroom there is a special slider for it and in PS it take less than one minute. I'm lazy but a PS script can be even crafted in no time for the lazy guys.

    So imagine the noise level if they crammed everything in the Q ... unbelievable.

    People should communicate more everywhere on this instead of defending the brand. But you'll always have some 60 + years old guys who think they know the whole universe of Jurassic ostrich world, telling you that are wrong because numbers or old retired engineers said so. Meanwhile many of us live of photography, use cameras and format from every brands and some might even work with Vogue. But no, you're wrong, you don't know how to use the camera when you can teach them all that cats aren't the main subject, even if the world is governed by cat and giant ostriches.

    More seriously it is not bashing. It is information for sigma that they can go serious, more than their lenses, if they put investment and "logic" in their camera section. Engineers aren't photographers and barely artists. Feedback from photographers is imho a best way to follow especially in the case of sigma.

    I should have give up since AGES on this subject but I'm attached to this brand because I started my professional career with DP cameras and got lot of success even with the limited range. I have emotional roots in this brand.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by xpatUSA View Post
    My two cents:

    In spite of the almost universal condemnation of the sd Quattro example shots, the quality of those shots is no reason to condemn the camera itself.

    Personally, I don't intend to buy any Quattro; nevertheless, I have seen excellent images produced by Quattro-powered cameras - just as I have seen stunning images produced by the humble SD9.

    Therefore, instead of slamming the sd Quattro based on only one man's shots, should we not postpone judgement until we see more shots - like, from people like us?

    Best Regards,

    Ted
    Ted I admire your technician skills because, even if many do not freaking understand number and colour science, you are right.

    You know the Δ between a humble SD9 X3f processing time and the Δ of the Quattro.

    You can't say there is any progression over there.

    We live in a time where phone technology (where the money and tech is) is exponentially exponential.

    Sigma is regressing while they have the tech to progress. Quattro isn't it !
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Ted I admire your technician skills because, even if many do not freaking understand number and colour science, you are right.

    You know the Δ between a humble SD9 X3f processing time and the Δ of the Quattro.

    You can't say there is any progression over there.

    We live in a time where phone technology (where the money and tech is) is exponentially exponential.

    Sigma is regressing while they have the tech to progress. Quattro isn't it !
    Hulyss, for once I agree with you.

    I myself stopped buying Sigmas with the SD1 Merrill. It's the only Merrill I own.

    I have the better of the two DSLR F7 sensors, in the SD10.

    I have the F13 and DP13 sensors in the SD14 and DP2s.

    And the F20 sensor in the SD1M.

    Of those, the F13/DP13 are about the best and the DP2s usually manages to out-shoot the SD14 - image quality-wise.

    I think that the Merrill, admired by so many people, represents a limit for the current sensor fabricators especially in the lower layers - it certainly has oddities when you dig down to raw data level (which most people never see).

    So, my Merrill is dedicated to IR/full spectrum work, at which it is the best, and the others for normal shooting.

    cheers,
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    - This Large Beast -

    The camera... not the girl !


    - Is an ode to Pointillism -

    And blotching and mushiness and many things...


    Full size here



    Full size here

    More HERE for the ones who like eye bleeding.

    The 12Mp of a venerable D700 are so much more pleasing with good glasses ... (I do not speak about later models of course)
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    for the ones who like eye bleeding.
    It's really strange. The Quattro sensor can deliver finest details (you can count every leaf) and it surely outperforms the Merrill in a resolution test, the colors actually also look good and natural, but in the same time the images look flat, lifeless and noisy. There is no feel of textures and materials. Out of focus areas look bad also.
    I don't understand what's happening.
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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    The Q images are great/good but have their issues and things would have been better with a true foveon IMO.
    For me I may as well stay with the DP2 or DP2M images that I make. That is the problem.
    If someone sent me a Q I'd give it a try, but I won't put my own money behind one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    You can't say there is any progression over there.
    Sigma is regressing while they have the tech to progress. Quattro isn't it !
    This is where I see it also.

    Quote Originally Posted by xpatUSA View Post
    and the DP2s usually manages to out-shoot the SD14 - image quality-wise.
    I feel it would have worked better if they continued to evolve the DP2 sensor pitch. Larger sensor, match a great lens.
    The DP2 is a rare thing, its like a cult within a cult IQ wise.
    Last edited by Tim; 6th July 2016 at 18:05.
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneage View Post
    It's really strange. The Quattro sensor can deliver finest details (you can count every leaf) and it surely outperforms the Merrill in a resolution test, the colors actually also look good and natural, but in the same time the images look flat, lifeless and noisy. There is no feel of textures and materials. Out of focus areas look bad also.
    I don't understand what's happening.
    I get the impression the difference, by and large, is in Sigma's firmware and software - rather than the resolution. I say that because the maximum sensor spatial frequency (Nyquist) for Quattro is 115 lp/mm and for Merrill is 102 lp/mm - not enough of a difference to write home about.

    But simple spatial frequency does not tell the whole story. If, after conversion, the MTF (contrast ratio) of the Quattro for a given spatial frequency is lower than that for a Merrill then the Quattro will lose and indeed look flatter and more lifeless. In other words, MTF and resolution are related but are not actually the same thing.

    In case the mention of "MTF" makes folk's eyes glaze over, that is the same MTF that is studied so diligently when comparing lens graphs and is just as relevant when applied to sensors and raw converters (in-camera or out).

    It could be that Quattro processing (not in low-res), which performs similar antics to JPEG and to TV, namely chroma sub-sampling, is one culprit for the "lack of texture".
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    I've got the confirmation, by Dongbuhitek Korea themselves, that they craft the sensor and only the sensor for sigma. They do not provide any processor or any kind of circuitry behind. That mean that sigma get a nude sensor from a factory and everything else elsewhere, probably Japan as well as the processor who is in fact a Fujitsu processor and probably not the best one (judging by what we found in the DP3m).

    Dongbuhiteck told me that they are able and can provide OPTIMIZED circuitry and electronic for their sensors, out of the factory EVEN for the foveon. Because SIGMA want most component "Made in Japan" we have the actual un-optimized quattro mess. To many different hands on the same device leading to some major errors IMHO.

    I asked them if they can craft a 24x36 up-scaled F13 processor but didn't gave me any response YET because they need to ask an engineer. It was on phone so they sent me a mail and I replied with more technical questions. I do not expect any more answer but we start to see why, ho why, this camera is so sad.

    The devil is in the hardware Ted, in majority, and in the software of course because everything is linked.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  32. #32
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Too big for me.

    I'm going for a Hass X1D - much smaller


    (Only joking but I don't think I'll be giving house room to the SD)

  33. #33
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneage View Post
    It's really strange. The Quattro sensor can deliver finest details (you can count every leaf) and it surely outperforms the Merrill in a resolution test, the colors actually also look good and natural, but in the same time the images look flat, lifeless and noisy. There is no feel of textures and materials. Out of focus areas look bad also.
    I don't understand what's happening.
    I find this with the Quattro DP0 and it is entirely inconsistent.

    Although looking at the forest pic and thinking back to the times I've seen mush and noise with the DP0 I wonder if it is a problem with processing greens?

    LouisB

  34. #34
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    BTW, just to remind everyone how awesome the DP2M (Merrill sensor) camera is - something I posted in my Flickr stream today.

    Inside Mametz Wood, July 2013 - take a look at the half-size direct to jpeg file on FLickr. Awesome, crisp detail.


    On Flickr
    -----
    My new book "Whitechapel in 50 BUildings", Flikr Stream, www.louisberk.com
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  35. #35
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    But, when you read the manual, it "taste" like a good cameras. Functionality are here but, who will buy a camera based on a manual ? (sadly, a lot ).

    http://www2nd.sigma-photo.co.jp/down..._Manual_en.pdf

    The H might be better but the cost should be below 2000 to be a success and IQ need to be here. I wonder how much time will need SPP to process such large files if in + there is a sfd mode too ...
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  36. #36
    New Member Sindhabd's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Ok guys , let's wait for better reviews that are going to come out soon...But I'm affraid that this camera I was waiting for going to be a holly crap...If its real , it's going to be a shame for foveon lovers who were waiting, like me, an interchangeable lenses system from Sigma.
    I get the DP2M and I'm reallyhappy and impress by the resulting pics, in sharpness but moreover in term of model, colors, shades...The lens is a blast but its only f2.8 and with the crappy iso limitation you are limited to good dailight conditions, as you all do allready know. My interest was being able to use foveon with Art lenses...but I'm affraid that I will have to wait for Sigma's next generation...hopping that they'll find better solutions...
    Like...simply a Merrill with interchangeable lenses...Pffff that would have be a crazyness of a camera...but they seems to have take the wrong path...anyway , lets wait for seriously made reviews...I can't simply not believe that they fail so badly with the SDQ...
    I was just planning to sell my DP2M to can afford the SDQ...but I think I will not do so !
    That little compact camera is great for the day and I love it so much, I decide not to sell it ! Never ^^
    Anyway, I allready get a solution for my night sessions and high isos stuffs...I've ordered an X-Pro1 which price is a bargain now that the 2 is out! (550€ euros brand new!).
    I've seen lots of really great photographers using X-Pro1 around Flickr and still shooting it nowadays.Owners really appreciate it (lots of vids in youtube).
    So I will keep the DP2M for the razor bestiality merrill thing and the Fuji for all others with legacy lenses and adapters..It's going to be funny ! And I will earn the money of sigma Art lenses and SDQ! hahahaha may be for Fujinon great little glasses like the 35 1.4 xf or 56 1.2 xf
    To take a look at my little DP2M things they are here : Fluidr / david_sanchez_astudillo's photos and videos
    sorry for my english limitations as it's not my first language....

  37. #37
    New Member Sindhabd's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    At the time there was a little controversy , about DPM VS DPQ...For what I could read (various tests , comparatives etc), majority of results were showing that DPM were better in IQ...and obviously in size!

  38. #38
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindhabd View Post
    ...but I'm affraid that I will have to wait for Sigma's next generation...hopping that they'll find better solutions...
    Like...simply a Merrill with interchangeable lenses...Pffff that would have be a crazyness of a camera...
    There is one already:

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd1

    Did you mean a SD2 Merrill?

    Ted

  39. #39
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Actually, in all seriousness, is the Foveon party over with the arrival of the Hass X1D?

    Yes, it is expensive but it also is good value for money when you consider what you are getting.

    And the portents are that Fuji and Sony will respond with even cheaper large format high density (e.g. 50mpx) sensor cameras and I am sure they will be significantly cheaper.

    I am not about to get rid of my DPxM cameras (I did that once with the DP3M, regretted it within about two weeks and bought another!). But there is no doubt the DP0Q I own is not the same beast even though it does have a superb wide angle lens.

    But there again as 'Sindbhad' says we really do have to wait for some 'professional' reviews. I expect Sean Reid will do one as he has always been a keen Sigma supporter.

    Just my two cents

    LouisB

  40. #40
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by xpatUSA View Post
    There is one already:

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd1

    Did you mean a SD2 Merrill?

    Ted
    No, actually I think he want my Sigma SP seen in post #7. Titanium plated EM shielded internal parts optimized for skin effect, Magnelock mount; no need to screw the lens, just magnetic stick and lock it for better precision, leaf shutter lenses for compactness, cortex arm processor, 16 bit colour depth, wifi for pc control, open source firmware for the technicians...

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Actually, in all seriousness, is the Foveon party over with the arrival of the Hass X1D?

    Yes, it is expensive but it also is good value for money when you consider what you are getting.

    And the portents are that Fuji and Sony will respond with even cheaper large format high density (e.g. 50mpx) sensor cameras and I am sure they will be significantly cheaper.

    I am not about to get rid of my DPxM cameras (I did that once with the DP3M, regretted it within about two weeks and bought another!). But there is no doubt the DP0Q I own is not the same beast even though it does have a superb wide angle lens.

    But there again as 'Sindbhad' says we really do have to wait for some 'professional' reviews. I expect Sean Reid will do one as he has always been a keen Sigma supporter.

    Just my two cents

    LouisB
    I think the XD1 isn't a menace at all. Not the same budget. Same target but not same budget at all. I think that sigma want to fight with big marketing effort on the "art" plan and the "resolution" plan but they fail once devices tested. It is fun, it is cool, it is an old scheme but at the end you wont use it professionally especially because of heavy shady processing behind. All in one that make film more user friendly.

    So yes it will be tested, the pros will provide technically perfect photos, the cons will provide crap photos and will point the flaws. All in one all of this do not matter. It is useless for street shooting because to heavy PP time behind and far too big camera. It is useless for many landscapes because it do not resolve like a Merrill and can show unrecoverable flaws (noise/blotches...) and need again lot of processing time behind the scene. It is mostly useless in studio because 1/180 Xsync, because the shutter is cheapskate. A DPQ will be a better studio camera. It is useless for any kind of action shoot, family, weeding, life, joy, apart far away surfers or birds who do not move on a branch. The SFD mode ? yea ... lets see how it work in landscape if there is even 1 knot of wind over the already water-painted background leafs.

    At the end, most of the lenses used on it will cost the same price and often a bigger price than the camera itself.

    Men, there is so many better and cheap cameras outhere ! So yea you'll not have the super resolution (most of you do not print at all) and anyway this super resolution is a Merrill time thing. But you'll have far more freedom to make a picture, you'll not waste your time adjusting colours/noise and even less time to develop the raw with all supported tolls available on the market. You'll make photos and will be more outdoor shooting than indoor post processing. THIS is photography, not the inverse !

    The Quattro H might be better in general IQ but as I said, processing time might be disastrous.

    If one should spend that much time behind a computer it should worth it, like the Merrill in his time. The Merrill worth it (but it is the limit).

    It is why ppl would pardon if they come with a big fat optimized Merrill. But what they did ? They did a in camera JPEG engine lol. Why not an in camera TIFF or DNG engine ????

    Anyway I support SIGMA,but not in there mistakes.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  41. #41
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    On a good note, I can say that SIGMA is making efforts in many domains, because all of this isn't nothing. For me the Quattro is an error, an IQ betrayal but it is not the general opinion so this is good for them. It won't be the same success as the Merrill, period.

    Highlighting the unpardonable flaws is a way to push them to invest more in their cameras. After all, it is just about money, but they are long BECAUSE of their philosophy to make all in Japan.

    If they craft a very super camera (they can) they'll need to invest an enormous amount of money to have all in Japan in + of their lenses factory, and then think scale economy. Need to hire a bigger team, more engineers, buildings, machines ...

    I hope it is in there plans.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  42. #42
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    It is why ppl would pardon Sigma if they came with a big fat optimized Merrill. But what if they did ? <>

    Why not an in camera TIFF or DNG engine ????
    For DNG, which seems to be designed implicitly for Bayer CFA cameras, the standard Adobe DNG tags are not suitable for decoding Foveon's image data.

    For example, the SD10 meta-data has a camera-to-XYZ (approx D55) 3x3 matrix. Then a set of 3x3 WB correction matrices. Then two matrices for transformation either to sRGB or to Adobe RGB.

    The DNG format provides just one camera-to-RGB matrix and a simple diagonal matrix for WB correction (or something like that: I find Adobe's DNG specification almost unintelligible !!). My point here being that, by virtue of it's format, DNG is intrisically unable to provide a DNG reader with sufficient meta-data to produce a good review image.

    Kalpanika (Roland Karlsson and Co.) recently developed a converter and found great difficulty reverse-engineering Sigma's tags and matrices. In the end, their DNG turned out to be the Linear type, with the Foveon image data partially processed to match the Linear DNG format. Unfortunately, there are many applications that either will not recognize Linear DNGs or will not open them incorrectly.

    Kalpanika's converter can also produce TIFF files which are usually OK but adjustments like WB are pre-selected and can not be changed later, unlike in SPP.

    [edit]

    Some more sd Quattro images can be found here:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/kazua0213/
    .
    Last edited by xpatUSA; 8th July 2016 at 09:52. Reason: added link to more images

  43. #43
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Have a look at this SFD pictures taken with the 70 macro :

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/clockm...l-2961299@N23/

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/clockm...l-2961299@N23/

    OK !!! let say his tripod is too light.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  44. #44
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Now have a look at this picture taken by Tiger1 on DPreview with the SD1m and probably no big adjustments :



    Right click show picture.

    With a Merrill it is like looking trough SWAROVSKI lense.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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  45. #45
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    More SD Quattro images with the 24-35mm Art lens.
    Maybe the best images from the SDQ until now:

    http://photo.yodobashi.com/sigma/imp/sdq.html
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  46. #46
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    So I downloaded most of his photos. We can note that the guy do not even compare with previous IQ hence the whole Merrill line vanished from his page. We are so with someone completely creamily dedicated to sigma.

    Few photos are "good". Many aren't at all (magenta cast, underexposure ...). There is a new function in the SDQ named tone control. A sort of DR amplifier like X3 fill light embed inside the body. This function was not used here and it is the first function I would have tested

    BUT


    If you look for example at the full size flower explain me how we can had more noise to noise ? Is it noise into noise or noise under noise ?

    So many will invest in the new ART lenses (after testing some samples) while ppl who have 35 years old Nikkor 50f1.2 can max out the D810 sensor at f2. I smell a villain trick. What should think actual sigma users who own pre art sigma lenses (macro lenses excluded) ?
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  47. #47
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Few photos are very good. Many aren't at all (magenta cast, underexposure ...).
    Yes, and it seems the 30mm Art lens isn't good enough for the SDQ. The 24-35 looks much better.

    PS: Maybe they are OOC JPG's from the camera?
    Last edited by Stoneage; 8th July 2016 at 11:48.

  48. #48
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneage View Post
    Yes, and it seems the 30mm Art lens isn't good enough for the SDQ. The 24-35 looks much better.
    I edited my post to "good" only. Landscape with the 24-35 water-paint in the corners. Foreground are sandy. HOOOOOOOOoooo


    ♥♥ SANDY ♥♥

    I will call the Quattro Sandy now. Far more appropriate.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  49. #49
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneage View Post
    PS: Maybe they are OOC JPG's from the camera?
    I translated it and didn't understood all. Seems like he is very proud of the first one and will print it ? It is SHi setting I think. Anyway, the guy is a shop. He does sale electronic goody's, cameras and all. Sure those are converted raws. But someone can ask him !

    ヨドバシ.com - ヨドバシカメラの公式通販サイト【 品無料配達】

    Ho, he also sale Baby-seats
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  50. #50
    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: SD Quattro early lemon review -

    An interesting sample. Art 24 at f8 but no information on iso.

    You can click through to a full sized image.

    LouisB

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